Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 03-06-08, 08:29 PM	This isn't a debate thread, or a fighter fix thread. However, this is an expansion upon one of the most suggested fighter fixes, something that I think would add a new dimension to feat selection: Level-Scaling Feats. We already have at least a few published examples (Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB, Heroic Surge [I dunno if it's a D&D feat, but it's in Modern], Leadership), so shall we expand on the idea? I understand this will be a large project, but I think it'll be worth doing for those of us who might not upgrade to 4E. I think we should stick to Core feats for now, mainly because it's a smaller selection and a more attainable goal, but also because I don't want to get busted for posting non-OGL material. :P Improved Unarmed Strike (Advancing) You are skilled at fighting unarmed, and become deadlier as your hands and spirit harden in combat. Benefits: Levels 1-5: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option. Levels 6-10: Your punches and kicks become more precise, doubling your existing unarmed critical threat range. Levels 11-15: The grace of your strikes hides a deadly force. When striking unarmed, and when not two-weapon fighting, your unarmed strikes deal extra damage equal to one-and-a-half times your strength bonus, instead of only your strength bonus. Levels 16-20: Your body is a tempered weapon after years of training. Your critical multiplier with unarmed strikes increases by one (X2 to X3, X3 to X4, etc...). Weapon Focus (Advancing) -Note: You'll probably need to either remove Improved Weapon Focus, or decide whether or not it is also an advancing feat. Your familiarity with a selected weapon improves your combat prowess. Through thorough training this weapon has become a part of you, and it shows. Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1. Benefits: 1-5: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. 6-10: Your bonus on attack rolls with your selected weapon increases to +2. 11-15: Your bonus on attack rolls with your selected weapon increases to +3. 16-20: Your bonus on attack rolls with your selected weapon increases to +4. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon. Improved Initiative (Advancing) Your incredible reflexes allow you to react before your opponents. Benefits: 1-5: You gain a +4 to your initiative. 6-10: Your bonus increases to +5 11-15: Your bonus increases to +6 16-20: your bonus increases to +7 Dodge (Advancing) You focus your attention on the greatest current threat, not allowing him to come near to hitting you. Prerequisite: Dex 13. Benefits: 1-5: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses. 6-10: Your dodge bonus increases to +2. 11-15: Your dodge bonus increases to +3 16-20: Your dodge bonus increases to +4 Special: A fighter may select Dodge as one of his fighter bonus feats. New! Point Blank Shot (advancing) "I don't really care about that sword of yours. I can put an arrow up your nostril from this range." - Chaden Gereth, halfling rogue. You are incredibly skilled with short-ranged shots. Benefits: 1-5: You get a +1 Bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30ft. 6-10: Your bonus on attack increases to 2. 11-15: Your bonus on damage increases to 2. 16-20: Attack and damage increase to 3. Weapon Specialization (Advancing) - Similar situation here as with Weapon Focus. Your growing mastery of your favored weapon grants you bonuses on damage. Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th. Benefits: 1-5: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. 6-10: Your bonus on damage increases to +4 11-15: Your bonus on damage increases to +6 16-20: Your bonus on damage increases to +8 Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats. So in general, I think four-stage feats are probably the way to go. I'm not sure how to advance skill bonus feats and save bonus feats without making them too powerful. What do you guys think? Thanks for reading!
jaelis 03-06-08, 08:39 PM	Weapon focus, dodge etc in a sense already do scale with level, since bonuses get more expensive as you advance. For instance, take point blank shot. That's about equivalent to a +1 enhancement bonus on your bow. (Let's not worry about the 30 ft range limitation.) At first level, that's worth 2000 gp. But once you have a +1 bow, somewhere around level 6), it's now worth the upgrade from +1 to +2, or 6000 gp. By the time you're carrying a +9 weapon, the feat is worth 38,000 gp. The point is that a stacking bonus is nice, whenever you get it. I really think a scaling version of weapon focus like what you suggest would be pretty overpowered. (In the sense that no one would be able to be an effective warrior-type without it.)
Master_Vega 03-06-08, 08:51 PM	Weapon focus, dodge etc in a sense already do scale with level, since bonuses get more expensive as you advance. For instance, take point blank shot. That's about equivalent to a +1 enhancement bonus on your bow. (Let's not worry about the 30 ft range limitation.) At first level, that's worth 2000 gp. But once you have a +1 bow, somewhere around level 6), it's now worth the upgrade from +1 to +2, or 6000 gp. By the time you're carrying a +9 weapon, the feat is worth 38,000 gp. True, but then let's compare this to a caster's spell advancement. They don't need equipment like melee classes do; their spells simply improve with their caster level, and they work just as well as, if not better than equipment. The extra funds casters get to pour into their purchases just adds insult to injury, so I thought I'd give the melee combatant a little more capability. Metamagic feats already increase with level (you can apply them to increasingly more powerful spells that cost either [relatively] little to nothing to learn.) I understand where you're coming from, but my goal here is to give something to warrior types. The point is that a stacking bonus is nice, whenever you get it. I really think a scaling version of weapon focus like what you suggest would be pretty overpowered. (In the sense that no one would be able to be an effective warrior-type without it.) Remember, if these are to be used, all the other feats that don't already advance with level will be fixed so they do. This means the other feats will be getting a very large boost. It might not turn out to be as necessary as it looks (especially if someone wants to revamp some non-core feats for their own group.) Your point is still a good one, though. Note (not pointed at jaelis): Please don't say "just enforce material components". There are inexpensive items for casters that circumvent this problem, not to mention using system would be complicated and annoying if you used it for every spell (and not just the ones like Resurrection with [not really]expensive components).
Khabarakh 03-07-08, 08:23 AM	Races of War (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=681572) has some, plus some other nice stuff.
aelryinth 03-07-08, 01:18 PM	Weapon focus, dodge etc in a sense already do scale with level, since bonuses get more expensive as you advance. For instance, take point blank shot. That's about equivalent to a +1 enhancement bonus on your bow. (Let's not worry about the 30 ft range limitation.) At first level, that's worth 2000 gp. But once you have a +1 bow, somewhere around level 6), it's now worth the upgrade from +1 to +2, or 6000 gp. By the time you're carrying a +9 weapon, the feat is worth 38,000 gp. The point is that a stacking bonus is nice, whenever you get it. I really think a scaling version of weapon focus like what you suggest would be pretty overpowered. (In the sense that no one would be able to be an effective warrior-type without it.) This is a typical anti-melee fallacy. It's used to justify why Weapon Focus is 'good' at all levels. Weapon Focus is an 'extra bonus'. It's not an enhancement bonus to a weapon. It's like Rage...it grants you an extra bonus to hit. It no more has a cost value then the bard singing his song does. Do you pay the bard 100K for his bardsong each time at level 20? I don't think so. Rage scales upwards as you get barb levels. Weapon focus does not. Bringing in the fact that weapon focus works on your extra iterative attacks is also a smokescreen. Rage works on your iteratives. Rage scales, WF does not. ======================== To the OP: Scaling feats are one of the main ways to 'cure' the Fighter. To be sure, you'd have to make sure they only scale with Fighter levels (and NOT with warblade levels, for example). What scaling does is make them equal to the Warblade's abilty to sub out old manuvers for 'new and improved ones'. So, in essence, 'scaling' feats operate just like they were 'additional feats'. Yes, all decent feats should scale and be worth the level they are taken at. Dumb stuff like waiting until level 12 to burn a feat so it's worth actually taking are one of the things they are trying to fix with new feats, and 4E. ===Aelryinth
aelryinth 03-07-08, 01:26 PM	So in general, I think four-stage feats are probably the way to go. I'm not sure how to advance skill bonus feats and save bonus feats without making them too powerful. What do you guys think? Thanks for reading! Skill bonus feats just advance the same way. really, would an additional +3 break any skill you can think of? Ditto the save feats. +2 at first, +5 at 15th basically burns a feat to change a poor save to a good one, or replicates what a barbarian gets in Rage. Do they really compare to the power of a base +23 save using the Diamond Mind manuvers at level 20 (before bonuses) ? I don't think so. Diamond Mind also uses a Concentration check, which means they don't even fail on a 1. give a Warblade a +5 Concentration booster, a 20 con, and he's getting a MINIMUM of a 34 on any save he cares to make. I'd say that's pretty impressive. And you're wondering about getting an additional +3 on a skill or save? The Fighter is already known to suck in the skill/save department. Don't worry about it. As for the UA...I'd simply combine Improved, Superior and Versatile UA into one feat for a Fighter. each time his damage improves, he gets access to a new damage type. And again, Fighter exclusivity VERY important here. ===Aelryinth
jaelis 03-07-08, 11:08 PM	True, but then let's compare this to a caster's spell advancement. There's two different issues here. One is the value of a feat, the other is balancing melee vs caster. My point is that Weapon Focus is a fine feat and the value of its bonus scales in a reasonable way. Does regular weapon focus balance melee vs casters? Of course not. But feats are a bad way to do that. The feats you presented are so strong that a meleer would be a fool not to take them. So at best, you're balancing meleers by effectively taking their feat choices away. That's not much fun for anyone... I think it would be much better to simply give those bonuses (or a subset of them) to melee characters, free of charge. If it's really a question of making specifically fighters better, then incorporate these bonuses into the class, and even take away some bonus feats if you want. That achieves the same thing, but doesn't force a class fix into the feat model. (For instance, many classes would want to take your WF and dodge. Everyone would take your Improved Init. So you wouldn't really be helping the balance of the fighter as much as you want.)
aelryinth 03-07-08, 11:36 PM	Well, of course they'd like to take the feats. they scale, and they are worth the levels they are taken at. That's like saying I'd like to take this spell, because it gets more powerful as I get more powerful, as opposed to a spell that does the same thing at level 1 as at level 20. Making it fighter exclusive is a given. ==Aelryinth
jaelis 03-07-08, 11:41 PM	My point is that a fighter-only feat that is far better than other feats isn't really a feat. It's really giving a class ability to the fighter and taking a bonus feat away. If you're going to do that just do it. Also, it's worth pointing out that the OP specifically said he was not after a fighter fix. I'm not sure that you and he are on the same page about that.
BigGus 03-08-08, 09:36 AM	I don't think Improved Initiative should scale with level, because initiative itself doesn't scale with level, unlike attack bonus, saves, skills etc. It's Dex bonus + feats and that's it. I think it makes sense for the others, but I think your progressions are a bit on the fast side. For saves, AC, attack & damage, I'd suggest increasing the bonuses +1/8 levels. Skills are generally easy to boost, can reach extremely high numbers already, and are usually less game-breaking than the other things listed if they become absurdly high, so I don't see a problem with making them advance faster. I'd say perhaps; Skill Focus: +2 +1/5 levels Alertness-type: +1 +1/6 levels Not sure about your IUS. My feeling is that the 1 1/2x Str bonus at level 11 is overpowering; I think that's good enough to be a seperate feat in itself. Following my earlier progressions, I'd remove that ability entirely, and give the increased threat range at level 8, and the increased multiplier at level 16. I also think if you're making these changes, Toughness should be replaced with Improved Toughness, or a weaker version of it. I like +1HP/2HD, minimum +3 myself. Going off the point slightly, an odd side-effect of scaling is that some epic feats can simply become repeats of their non-epic versions. Example: RAW Weapon Spec: +2 damage RAW Epic WS: +4 damage +2 +1/8 levels gives +2 at levels 1-7 and +4 at levels 16-23. Same goes for saves and Weapon Focus (although WF actually gives +3 at levels 16-23, rather than +2 for EWF). Epic Skill Focus could be +4 +1/5 levels, and you could have "Epic Alertness" at +2 +1/6 levels. Also, Epic Dodge could simply be a repeat of Dodge (or perhaps +2 +1/8 levels) rather than the current version, which gives the rather absurd ability to automatically dodge one attack per round (I hate absolutes, especially in epic; but that's a rant for another time...).
Master_Vega 03-08-08, 11:21 AM	I'm posting this idea so you can use it as you like. My thought was to balance melee with casters, something I've been trying to do through various methods (signature attacks and the like), but it would be an okay fighter fix. On the subject of power: this would indeed increase the power level of any game it is used in. There's no debating that, but remember that all feats that don't already scale will scale (well, except for maybe proficiency feats, and Weapon Finesse and such, but you get the point). I just haven't finished most of them yet. If these do become fighter-only progressions, some bonus feats will actually have to be eliminated from the class, or it will overpower other melee combatants. aelryinth -- What book is Versatile Unarmed Strike from? jaelis -- I understand what you are saying, but I also intend to make the other feats stronger and more appealing like the ones that I have already converted. BigGus -- I was hoping to make the formula a bit more simple, but yours does work. Does anyone have any other ideas for advancing feats?
Silverthumb 03-08-08, 11:27 AM	I don't think Improved Initiative should scale with level, because initiative itself doesn't scale with level, unlike attack bonus, saves, skills etc. It's Dex bonus + feats and that's it. AC doesn't increase with level either, though. Only for a select few classes & PrCs, but on the whole, it scales with Dex bonus + equipment. But there really isn't any reason not to let Initiative scale to level with Improved initiative. Personally, I like the idea of feats scaling to level. I'd really like to see the Combat Focus feats scaling to level too. Not just duration either, I like the duration just fine.
Master_Vega 03-08-08, 11:38 AM	AC doesn't increase with level either, though. Only for a select few classes & PrCs, but on the whole, it scales with Dex bonus + equipment. But there really isn't any reason not to let Initiative scale to level with Improved initiative. Personally, I like the idea of feats scaling to level. I'd really like to see the Combat Focus feats scaling to level too. Not just duration either, I like the duration just fine. Could you tell me what book those are in? If they're OGL, I'll see what I can do. :P
BigGus 03-08-08, 12:17 PM	BigGus -- I was hoping to make the formula a bit more simple, but yours does work. I don't understand. In what way is +1/8 levels less simple than +1/5 levels? AC doesn't increase with level either, though. Only for a select few classes & PrCs, but on the whole, it scales with Dex bonus + equipment. But there really isn't any reason not to let Initiative scale to level with Improved initiative. Technically correct, but AC effectively scales with level, since there are so many ways to increase it (I can think of 10 different bonus types off the top of my head, which can be gained in at least 5 different ways), and a very low AC is not practical for most character builds at high level, so virtually everyone uses some combination of them. Initiative on the other hand can only be increased in two ways, and while a high initiative is very useful, many characters don't spend feats or ability increases to improve it. For example, most characters who wear heavy armour don't tend to bother increasing their Dex, so if they don't buy any initiative feats their initiative will be exactly the same at level 20 as it was at level 1. I'd be interested to see anyone try to make a viable character whose AC is the same all the way. So I would argue that there is a reason not to let Improved Initiative scale with level.
Master_Vega 03-08-08, 12:29 PM	I don't understand. In what way is +1/8 levels less simple than +1/5 levels? I meant +1/5 for everything versus +1/8 for some and +2/5 for others. If that's not what you meant in your first post, then I'm simply mistaken. My apologies. :P Technically correct, but AC effectively scales with level, since there are so many ways to increase it (I can think of 10 different bonus types off the top of my head, which can be gained in at least 5 different ways), and a very low AC is not practical for most character builds at high level, so virtually everyone uses some combination of them. Initiative on the other hand can only be increased in two ways, and while a high initiative is very useful, many characters don't spend feats or ability increases to improve it. For example, most characters who wear heavy armour don't tend to bother increasing their Dex, so if they don't buy any initiative feats their initiative will be exactly the same at level 20 as it was at level 1. I'd be interested to see anyone try to make a viable character whose AC is the same all the way. So I would argue that there is a reason not to let Improved Initiative scale with level. So, simply because Initiative is not important to all characters, Improved Initiative should not advance? I think it would be kind of handy to go before a high-dexterity (and, thus, high initiative) beast.
Dheran 03-08-08, 06:29 PM	Your advancing dodge bonus steps on the class ability of the Shou Disciple (prestige class from Oriental Adventures). Here are a couple of other feats (for Rogues, mostly) that scale: Craven, which adds +1 per character level to sneak attack damage; and Savvy Rogue, which gives a benefit for all the Rogue special abilities you have.
Master_Vega 03-08-08, 06:52 PM	Isn't OA 3.0 material? I was also pretty sure Dodge bonuses were an exception to the "Bonuses of X-type don't stack" rule.
Silverthumb 03-09-08, 03:05 AM	Technically correct, but AC effectively scales with level, since there are so many ways to increase it (I can think of 10 different bonus types off the top of my head, which can be gained in at least 5 different ways), and a very low AC is not practical for most character builds at high level, so virtually everyone uses some combination of them. You mean it technically increases. Its helpful, sure, but it doesn't increase on its own by level. Initiative on the other hand can only be increased in two ways, and while a high initiative is very useful, many characters don't spend feats or ability increases to improve it. I'd be interested to see anyone try to make a viable character whose AC is the same all the way. Iaijutsu Focus builds rely more on winning Initiative than surviving hits later on. Or Nova-Wizards/Sorcerors who rush in, deal the heavy damage. The need for AC actually reduces as access to higher-level damaging spells increases, whereas getting that high Initiative is key. Rogues, Sniper Rangers, Bard/Psions/Wizards/etc that focus on controlling the enemy, I'm sure there's more. Could you tell me what book those are in? If they're OGL, I'll see what I can do. :P They're from the Player's Handbook 2. They're kinda underrated, but I don't want to say that in order to overplay them either. :D
aelryinth 03-13-08, 08:57 PM	I believe Versatile Unarmed Strike is from PH2...lets your UA do slash, pierce or blud, as you change it. Shou Disciple is from the FR book on Rasheman and That, not OA. Do NOT worry about stepping on class abilities. I personally think that the Shou Disciple should have all its class abilities statted out as feats and available to fighters. Dodge bonus, flurry, uA improvement...yeah, those are just core melee abilities. Feats are Fighter abilities. Alternate class abilities for fighter feat levels are 'just' feats that other classes cannot take, and guess what? They tend to be more powerful and scale better then most feats. So, to make a Fighter's bonus feats more viable, any feats taken with a Fighter's bonus feat slots (as opposed to general slots) should scale better with level. That makes Fighter Bonus Feats actually MEAN something...they ARE better then normal feats, as opposed to just getting more feats (and 'less' class abilities because of it). ===Aelryinth
sblaxman 03-14-08, 11:27 AM	So, to make a Fighter's bonus feats more viable, any feats taken with a Fighter's bonus feat slots (as opposed to general slots) should scale better with level. That makes Fighter Bonus Feats actually MEAN something...they ARE better then normal feats, as opposed to just getting more feats (and 'less' class abilities because of it). ===Aelryinth I may have missed this line in the OP, so if it was there ignore this, but I think aelryinths line there would be the key point, have these only apply to the fighter bonus feats, not their normal feats. This will (doubly so) ensure this is a fighter specific bonus, and it will give a specific list of feats (which isn't THAT large) that you need to change (as opposed to trying to make fighter versions of EVERY feat. It's an interesting take, fairly simple, and not too shabby. Kudos
wonlee76 03-14-08, 11:46 AM	I don't mind the concept of scaling feats that get better and better as a PC levels up but that just makes all PCs more powerful since scaling feats become more valuable. I generally prefer scaling feats for fighters (the improvements would be based solely on fighter levels) since they could use a bit of a push but if you want scaling feats in general that just ends up having bad guys and PCs being slightly more powerful. Also, monsters may get a better advantage out of this idea then the PCs since there are quite a few monsters where their HD is higher then their CR.
kamronshepard 03-14-08, 03:38 PM	Toughness could be scalable at +1 hit point per level, starting at +1 rather than +3.
ToastedAmphibian 03-14-08, 05:27 PM	Mobility [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, Dodge. Benefit You get a dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses. 1-5: +4 6-10: +6 11-15: +8 16-20: +10 Special A fighter may select Mobility as one of his fighter bonus feats.
ToastedAmphibian 03-14-08, 05:40 PM	Rapid Reload [General] Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy). Prerequisite Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen). Benefit The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced acording to the table below. Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity unless otherwise noted. An entry of "Partial Move" means that you may reload as a free action as part of movment. Doing so produces an attack of opportunity in addition to the one that would normally be caused by movment. 1-5: Hand/Light-Partial Move..................Heavy-Move 6-10: Hand/Light-swift..........................Heavy-Partial Move 11-15: Hand/Light-free..........................Heavy-swift 16-20: Hand/Light- Free, No AOO............Heavy-free Normal A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy crossbow. Special You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow. A fighter may select Rapid Reload as one of his fighter bonus feats. Are these the kind of things your looking for? If you think they are out of line ballance wise with what your already submitting, let me know. I throughly intend to snatch this entire list when it is complete for my own personal use, so balancing them aginst eachother is important to me.
ToastedAmphibian 03-14-08, 05:49 PM	Rapid Shot [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, Point Blank Shot. Benefit You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat untill level 16. 1-5: -2 Penalty 6-10: -1 Penalty 11-15: 0 Penalty 16-20: You may make a second attack with a ranged weapon as part of an attack action. This extra attack, as well as all other attacks in the round, suffers a -2 Penalty. If used in conjunction with a full attack action, you must decide how many extra arrows you will fire before making any attacks. Each extra arrow is fired using the BAB of your current itterative. Special A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
ToastedAmphibian 03-14-08, 05:58 PM	Shot On The Run [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4. Benefit When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed, or twice your speed with a penalty. 1-5:-4 Penalty 6-10: -2 Penalty 11-15: -1 Penalty 16-20: No Penalty, may use standard action attacks granted by feats such as Many Shot. Special A fighter may select Shot on the Run as one of his fighter bonus feats.
ToastedAmphibian 03-14-08, 07:03 PM	And this one is rather off topic, but i think it pairs very well with the scaleing feats presented here thus far. Ambush Predator [Tactical] [Fighter] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Fighter Level 4, Weapon Focus(Any Ranged Weapon), Weapon Specialization(Any Ranged Weapon), Dodge, Mobility, Point-Blank Shot, Shoot on the Run, Jump 5 Ranks 1. Ready To Strike: Like a snake, you can ready yourself to lunge out at a moments notice. You gain the benifit of the Shoot on the Run feat on a readied action. You must move in a straight line, and you must make your shot from within 30ft of the target. 2. Dance of the Ferret: Your bounding, chaotic movments throw your opponnents off guard, but can sometimes land you in trouble. Once per turn, when you would be struck by an opponnents attack of opportunity, you may attempt to dive out of harms way. You must decide to use this ability after the attack has been made, but before damage is rolled. Roll 1d8 and make a jump check. Move the distance indicated on the jump check in the direction indicated by the d8, as per the long jump rules in the players handbook. This movement does NOT provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature attempting to strike you, and you do not need to make a tumble check to pass through his square. You land prone in the indicated square, and the opponnent suffers a 50% miss chance on his strike, assuming you moved atleast 5ft. 3. Element of Surprise: You hit your opponent when he least expects it, when he thinks hes hitting you. To use this manuever you must have just succsessfully used the Dance of the Ferret manuever to avoid an opponents blow. As an immediate action you may gain a free attack on your attacker using a ranged weapon that you are specialized in. Your opponnent is considered flat-footed for this attack. [Creatures that cannot be caught flat footed, such as minotaurs, are immune to this affect] Special: You may only use these manuevers when you have a ranged weapon equiped that you possess the weapons specialization feat for.
sblaxman 03-14-08, 11:33 PM	I 2nd wonlee's comment, that only fighter levels should apply to the scale up (so a Fighter5/Wiz10 would only get the scale up for lvl 5 (unless maybe add a practiced fighter feat or something that adds +2 or +4 to fighter levels for multiclassers (ala practiced spellcaster))
Master_Vega 03-15-08, 01:48 AM	ToastedAmphibian -- Those look great, though I'm not so sure your scaling Rapid Shot is balanced with the second additional attack at the end... maybe I'm wrong, though. As for everyone who thinks these feats should only scale for fighter, you may want to consider dropping a number of the fighter's bonus feats... otherwise it'll overpower every other melee class by a longshot.
Operation_Shoestring 03-15-08, 03:11 AM	instead of scaling with level, you could also have feats scale depending on how many you have on the tree... see the "combat focus" line of feats
Silverthumb 03-15-08, 11:03 AM	otherwise it'll overpower every other melee class by a longshot. Even ToB? Good.
Master_Vega 03-15-08, 11:17 AM	Even ToB? Good. My goal was to make melee classes level with casters, not make fighters the ultimate fighting class. I enjoy a bit more variety in my games, so a fighter and warblade of equal level should be able to go toe-to-toe and expect a tough battle that could go either way. :P I think Operation_Shoestring's suggestion is MUCH more balanced than what you have in mind.
Operation_Shoestring 03-15-08, 06:00 PM	I think Operation_Shoestring's suggestion is MUCH more balanced than what you have in mind. Thanks. I once started a re-work of the entire TWF system based on scaling with # of feats like Combat focus works... I didn't quite finish though, because school killed my time. It went something like this: Two Weapon Fighting (TW) -Prereq: Dex 15 When fighting with a weapon in each hand, your attack penalties are reduced to -4/-4. if you wield a light weapon in your off-hand, they are further reduced to -2/-2. You may make a number of iterative attacks with your off-hand equal to the number of two-weapon (TW) feats you possess, provided you have sufficient BAB. Normal: When fighting with two weapons you suffer attack penalties of -6/-10. You may make only 1 attack with your off-hand weapon. Two Weapon Defense (TW) -Prereq: Two-Weapon Fighting When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you receive a Shield Bonus to AC equal to the number of TW feats you possess. This Bonus increases by 2 when you fight defensively and doubles when you take the total defense action. Two Weapon Rend (TW) -Prereq: Two-Weapon Fighting When fighting with a weapon in each hand, if you successfully hit with both weapons you deal an additional bonus die of damage. If you hit multiple times with each weapon, you get a bonus die for each pair of hits. The bonus die type depends on the number of two-weapon feats you possess. Feats {} Die 2-3 {} d6 4-5 {} d8 6 or more {} d10 Mirror Blades (TW) -Prereq: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 17 This feat allows the use of the following abilities when two-weapon fighting with two weapons of the same type (eg, two short swords.) Extraordinary Synchronization When fighting with two weapons of the same type, you gain a +1 perfection bonus to attack rolls. This bonus increases to +2 if you have at least 4 TW feats, and +3 if you have at least 6. With at least 3 TW feats: Perfect Dance of Blades-When fighting with the same type of weapon in each hand, for every main-hand/off-hand pair of attacks, make two attack rolls and take the higher result for both attacks. With at least 5 TW feats: Cutting Trace- When you make a successful attack using Perfect Dance of Blades, roll weapon damage twice and take the higher result for bath attacks.