Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Throg 11-30-06, 01:38 AM	Thought I'd start a bandwagon on this idea. It was brought up in one of the variety of Fighter Suck/Underpowered/Whatever discussion/flame war threads that may have merit. Here's the post by RadicalTaoist I would again like to issue my wish that divine spell casting be made into a feat system to represent the fact that a character of any path can worship a god. Clerics of Kord are already supposed to resemble barbarians with spells, of Olidamarra to act like rogues with spells, so on so forth. Making it a feat system solves two problems: it allows easier representations of more character concepts (that of a god's followers in their various roles), and it frees healing from class restriction solving a lot of balance problems (you can replace the Paladin with the Fighter this way, actually). If you still want the 'priest' archetype make a class that gets these kinds of feats as bonus feats. Done. *This off-topic note brought to you by Dissatisfaction with the 4-Role-Party Paradigm* All Credit goes to him for this idea. Now please don't bring up how this is a horrible idea, or disregard the idea as plain stupid, if you feel this way don't bother posting and move somewhere else. I want to talk about how this could actually be made into a viable feat system. And before anyone brings it up, yes this would probably only be implemented in a game which has changed the classes somewhat, but that's not the main point here. I would love to see some of these feats also made as Fighter Bonus feats for certain deities, so not all Fighters can just pick them up, as worshiping the exact god will always be a prerequisite, maybe certain level of Class X to unlock some special ability?
Salla 11-30-06, 01:42 AM	That's what Multiclassing is for. :)
Throg 11-30-06, 02:02 AM	That's what Multiclassing is for. :) :P right back at ya. And why multiclass when you could just be a straight cleric these days? That's the purpose of this, to take clerics down a peg! Take that yea overpowered bastard! (Btw, I'm just joking.... or am I? Mwahahaha, I shall confound and amaze you!)
Seerow 11-30-06, 02:10 AM	Like I said in the thread where RT posted this originally, I love the idea, and think it has merit. I have no ideas whatsoever on how to properly implement it however. Edit: Okay, I lied. I'm thinking something maybe like a very long series of feats. Something like 10-16 feats. All ties into one another, all required to gain everything the Cleric can have. Maybe some grant spell casting, some grant domains, some grant turning, whatever. This lets pretty much any character pick up a bit of minor divine casting, or whatever extras they want, so long as they're willing to blow the feats. Then keep the Cleric class, but call it the Divine Devotee or something similar. This class would gain pretty much all of these feats as bonus feats, spread over 20 levels. Maybe a few extra things here and there to fill dead levels, but nothing major. The class however would have stats similar to a Wizard, low BAB, low fort and ref, strong will. The warrior-type clerics are represented by Fighters delving into the tree, while the Devotee is more like the Cloistered Cleric. (Certain Spells, such as Divine Power, may have to be restricted from the Devotee, to avoid cheese we currently see. Maybe make it a domain-only spell. Someone with the War Domain can cast it, but not everyone can.)
Nadaka 11-30-06, 02:29 AM	actually... For my next D&D campain, I will be using d20 modern as a base as blasphemous as that sounds. The first 3 caster levels of every spellcasting class will be accessable by taking a series of 3 feats. When combined with Magical Apprentice occupation (with the first of these feats as a bonus), advanced classes and prestige classes, this provides options for spellcasting from level 1 to 20.
Throg 11-30-06, 09:43 AM	Hmmm, Maybe grant certain spells/day based on the number of the line of feats he has? Hmmm... I would be leary of the first feat granting access to preparing all the spells in the list at first, perhaps 3 seperate feats 1st Intro Feat gives you the Cleric spell list up to level 5 of Cleric. Upgraded Feat up to Level 11 Cleric, then Final feat up to level 17ish. Other Feats would grant special powers based on the god you worship, another allowing you to Turn/Rebuke Undead. All powers would have a prereq of the 1st feat. Any gods which grant a set of powers based around fighting in melee, those would be Fighter bonus feats.. Hmmm, I think we got something going here.
NoldorForce 11-30-06, 10:00 AM	Perhaps some of the feats could add existing spells or spellcasting augmentations to characters who already have spellcasting ability. Something to the effect of the Mage Priest archetype. (Similar to AE's PrC by that name?) I'd strongly suggest that certain spells be limited by domain, and that those domains would be accessible by feats. Implementing a limit on domains would be trickier, though. Perhaps the initial feats would only give out one spell per spell level, and the use of more feats would allow more daily/per-encounter spell slots. I'd definitely like to see divine casting that wasn't tied down to a pre-set ability score, most commonly Wisdom. (Along those lines, I'd like to see casting in general that wasn't tied to a pre-set ability score. Maybe that's just the AE freak in me.) Perhaps the initial feat would allow you to choose, and give some small benefit based on whatever ability score you chose. Hmm...perhaps higher-tier feats could augment that "small benefit"?
Throg 11-30-06, 10:27 AM	Perhaps some of the feats could add existing spells or spellcasting augmentations to characters who already have spellcasting ability. Something to the effect of the Mage Priest archetype. (Similar to AE's PrC by that name?) I'd strongly suggest that certain spells be limited by domain, and that those domains would be accessible by feats. Implementing a limit on domains would be trickier, though. Perhaps the initial feats would only give out one spell per spell level, and the use of more feats would allow more daily/per-encounter spell slots. I'd definitely like to see divine casting that wasn't tied down to a pre-set ability score, most commonly Wisdom. (Along those lines, I'd like to see casting in general that wasn't tied to a pre-set ability score. Maybe that's just the AE freak in me.) Perhaps the initial feat would allow you to choose, and give some small benefit based on whatever ability score you chose. Hmm...perhaps higher-tier feats could augment that "small benefit"? Hmm... I got it! The preset DC for spells is 10+level, but depending on the god, you can take a feat to up the DC by a main score.. the War Gods would be Str or Con, ect. I'm not sure about not having a max level based on your Wisdom score though.
bitnine 11-30-06, 11:12 AM	I think the idea definitely has merit. You'd probably see a base feat that allows for casting that scales with the # of typed feats possessed. And you'd likely see another that makes a domain available. Then you'd probably have the more specific ones, like a champion of Kord having the ability to swift cast (from a restricted list) while entering a rage, or a devotee of Olidamarra doing something sneaky. As for the specifics? Hm, maybe something as simple as having spells/day as if a cleric with a level equal to the number of [Devotee] feats possessed (sans domain bonus spells or bonus ability spells), capped by character level. I'd probably have caster level be character level, and wisdom the default casting ability. Then allow the Domain-granting feat to be deity specific and change that casting ability. I'd actually probably have a separate feat to have the spells actually treated as if on a class list for spell trigger items to avoid the single-feat wand use from being too tempting. The rest of the feats probably would be nice to have domain and class-ability specific, providing a nice blend between existing class features and divine power. So you might see a barbarian champion of Kord with a line of feats like: Divine Devotee, Devoted Focus (Kord), Champion's Rage, Devoted Resilience, Will of Devotion. And he'd be able to, say, cast some Kord-like spells, slightly self-buff while raging, heal a bit, and protect his mind. (Hm... Given the above, five feats would mean he's 9th level if human, sporting up to third level spells with 3/2/1. Maybe a little low for the investment, then? Keeping bonus spells by ability might be in order.)
Throg 11-30-06, 11:42 AM	I think the idea definitely has merit. You'd probably see a base feat that allows for casting that scales with the # of typed feats possessed. And you'd likely see another that makes a domain available. Then you'd probably have the more specific ones, like a champion of Kord having the ability to swift cast (from a restricted list) while entering a rage, or a devotee of Olidamarra doing something sneaky. As for the specifics? Hm, maybe something as simple as having spells/day as if a cleric with a level equal to the number of [Devotee] feats possessed (sans domain bonus spells or bonus ability spells), capped by character level. I'd probably have caster level be character level, and wisdom the default casting ability. Then allow the Domain-granting feat to be deity specific and change that casting ability. I'd actually probably have a separate feat to have the spells actually treated as if on a class list for spell trigger items to avoid the single-feat wand use from being too tempting. The rest of the feats probably would be nice to have domain and class-ability specific, providing a nice blend between existing class features and divine power. So you might see a barbarian champion of Kord with a line of feats like: Divine Devotee, Devoted Focus (Kord), Champion's Rage, Devoted Resilience, Will of Devotion. And he'd be able to, say, cast some Kord-like spells, slightly self-buff while raging, heal a bit, and protect his mind. (Hm... Given the above, five feats would mean he's 9th level if human, sporting up to third level spells with 3/2/1. Maybe a little low for the investment, then? Keeping bonus spells by ability might be in order.) Hmm... That would give a normal character 7 feats so only up to 4th level spells. Maybe equal to 2xNumber of Devotee feats? And give the special class 10 of these feats so he's overall stronger in his magical abilities, and equal casting ability to a normal cleric. The problem with that would be 1st level characters having 2nd level spells... So I think it'd be best to use my idea, the 1st feat gives you spells as a Cleric equal to your level, max of 5th level. 2nd gives you spells as a Cleric equal to your level, max of 11th, and the 3rd gives you spells as a cleric equal to your level max of 17th. This requirement would I think be burning enough feats that it isn't a huge boost in power to up their fighting abilities. But we may need to fine tune the spell lists based off the deity for this to become less overpowered... We may be able to get rid of the Druid and Cleric all together, having a druid made out of these feats taken by a Ranger for Druid spells.. getting rid of his spells, and replacing that with some bonus devotee feats or some such.
bitnine 11-30-06, 12:05 PM	The problem with that would be 1st level characters having 2nd level spells... So I think it'd be best to use my idea, the 1st feat gives you spells as a Cleric equal to your level, max of 5th level. 2nd gives you spells as a Cleric equal to your level, max of 11th, and the 3rd gives you spells as a cleric equal to your level max of 17th.Well, I did mention capping at character level to prevent that quirk. But the method that you mentioned would be very workable as well. You may still want to consider spreading the increase across typed feats, say, with the base feat allowing for character level up to X and then each typed feat increasing that cap. That might allow for a smoother progression there and more of an ability to fine-tune the resource cost when working out the balance. I think also part of the question is how exactly you want the spells to function and the role of the feats to encompass. Are we talking about a another class taking full divine casting, or a class modified by/infused with divine power? Or the ability to slide between the two? There are certainly some options for scaling hybridization like that; say, having the feats default to half-casting progression (like a ranger's), but with the ability to invest up to full.
Throg 11-30-06, 12:11 PM	Well, I did mention capping at character level to prevent that quirk. But the method that you mentioned would be very workable as well. You may still want to consider spreading the increase across typed feats, say, with the base feat allowing for character level up to X and then each typed feat increasing that cap. That might allow for a smoother progression there and more of an ability to fine-tune the resource cost when working out the balance. I think also part of the question is how exactly you want the spells to function and the role of the feats to encompass. Are we talking about a another class taking full divine casting, or a class modified by/infused with divine power? Or the ability to slide between the two? There are certainly some options for scaling hybridization like that; say, having the feats default to half-casting progression (like a ranger's), but with the ability to invest up to full. Hmm... we could set it at half progression for all the feats, then a new class which is able to go through a full progression.. Or just a Medium level feat that changes it to full progression.
bitnine 11-30-06, 01:29 PM	Hmm... we could set it at half progression for all the feats, then a new class which is able to go through a full progression.. Or just a Medium level feat that changes it to full progression.Yeah, I think you could probably run with both. In addition to a midlevel feat, making some temporary name assumptions, you might see: Unparalleled Devotion: At 1st level, a Priest gains Divine Devotee as a bonus feat. The Priest may use his class level to determine his caster level as well as spells known from this feat. If the Priest already possesses the Divine Devotee feat, he may select another feat with the devotee descriptor.
RadicalTaoist 11-30-06, 01:36 PM	Well, first let's gather all the spells in the base cleric list into related groups, i.e. Healing, Divination, etc. We can probably take the domain spell lists and add stuff from the cleric base list until everything is represented to do this. I can't work too much on this due to school but I have an idea where to start. One thing I *don't* want to do is make all of clerical spellcasting available with the feats. You should have to choose between what divine spellcasting you get (which means your Olidammara worshiping rogue probably will never get to cast Zone of Truth). Our 'divine caster' class gets a lot of bonus feats, but like the Fighter, he can't have them all. People complain about the limitless casting of the cleric already. Let's not keep it.
Throg 11-30-06, 01:56 PM	Exactly. So I think we'll start with something along this line; Devoted Follower [Divine Disciple] Benefit: A character with this feat gains the ability to cast spells depending on their worshiped god, drawn from a divine list. His number of spells prepared per day is drawn from the cleric base class, of a cleric level equal to half his class level, to a max at level 10. Example: 10th level Fighter has access to the same number of spells as a 5th level Cleric. Greater Devoted Follower [Divine Disciple] Prerequisite: Devoted Follower Benefit: A character with this feat may cast spells as a cleric of one half his level to a max at level 20. Example, a 20th level Fighter would have the same spells/day as a cleric of 10th level. Then sequential feats would allow for Turn/Rebuke, Casting divine spells in Rage, ect.
Throg 12-01-06, 10:49 AM	I'm working on splitting all the cleric spells into their individual Categories.. got done with 0-2 then had to get to bed. So maybe by tonight I could have them up... what's the show/hide block command? I don't want to make a ridiculously long post. After that's up, we can talk about what gods would have what spells, or what falls under the Domain Spells.
NoldorForce 12-01-06, 03:16 PM	Use spoiler tags. They're used by creating nested sblocks. Look here (http://boards1.wizards.com/misc.php?do=bbcode) for details.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-01-06, 11:33 PM	How about make it simply 1 feat per level of spells, with pre-reqs of minimum attribute score and character level. This would mean if a character devoted all his normal feats to obtaining spellcasting, he could reach 7th level spell by 18th level. I think this would be balanced I think, because I think true casters should still be superior at casting. The character could choose either spontaneous casting or prepared when they choose the first feat, and the # of spells available per level per day would be equal to a cleric or favored soul of your character level. So you wind up with the same # of spells of levels you have as a cleric, but not as high level spells as a true divine caster. For more variety, you could create domain flavored versions, granting additional special abilities, but with more restrictive spell lists...
Tempest Stormwind 12-02-06, 12:49 AM	RT and I worked together on Untapped Potential; this has promise. Here's a thought. Base it off of Star Wars d20 Force effects. But redo it with this in mind. Maybe draw a bit off of psionics with the psionic focus to replace the vitality costs... and a touch of Incarnum while we're at it... Here's a ROUGH structure of it. VERY rough, mind you, so by all means tear it to shreds, but I'd like to delude myself into thinking I've got a good grasp of the mechanics. DIVINE FEATS All divine channelers have a spark of divine inspiration in them, although this varies from channeler to channeler. This is represented mechanically through divine feats. A character must have the Divine Inspiration feat to take any divine feat. Divine Inspiration is not a divine feat itself, but represents the beginning of a character's special bond with their deity. Divine Inspiration and divine feats have special roleplay requirements in the forms of special rituals that reflect their purpose to the deity in question. Violating a roleplay requirement for these feats is similar to losing access to a feat prerequisite -- namely, you lose access to the feat in question. However, it is less severe than this: All divine feats lost return to you the next time you pray (as specified in the Divine Inspiration feat). If you have lost a divine feat, you cannot make any checks with the divine skills it grants, although you are otherwise unaffected -- you may still cause miracles you learned from those feats, or miracles that require those skills. (Divine Inspiration itself follows special guidelines on this; see below.) DIVINE INSPIRATION [General] You share a powerful connection to your deity -- powerful enough to begin training to be his instrument in the world. Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, must have a patron deity, must be within one step of that deity's alignment if you want to keep that aspect of the cleric around. Roleplay Requirement: Every day, at a time specified by your deity, you must spend an hour in prayer or similar ritual. If events prevents you from doing so at the specified time, you must do so at the soonest possible opportunity. If you do not, you lose access to this feat until you pray on the following day. Benefit: Add Channel Faith to your list of class skills for all your current and future classes (see below). [Other divine skills will exist; some of the basic ones become cross-class skills at this point.] You gain a number of special skill points equal to your Wisdom modifier plus the number of Divine feats you have at each subsequent level (including the level at which you took this feat; if you took this feat at first level, these special skill points are quadrupled as normal). These special skill points can only be spent on skills noted as Divine skills (normal skill points can also buy ranks in these skills to hasten your training in divine channeling at the cost of your normal skill training.). You also gain the ability to cause your deity's characteristic orison. You may cause that orison by channelling your divine impetus as indicated in your deity's description. [Mechanically, this is the approximation of Spontaneous Casting.] Special: Although anyone can be touched by the gods, some churches, particularly those of lawful deities, refuse to train nonclergy in their ways. This may limit your ability to learn divine feats or skills without proper roleplaying. If you cease venerating your deity or otherwise displease him or her (note: this is not the same as ceasing to follow your church's orders, although some deities may not look too kindly on that), you lose the benefit of this feat. Only a miracle of atonement can restore this feat once lost, although it might spontaneously return if you accomplish important tasks in the name of your deity (essentially, the deity may choose to cause the miracle of atonement on its own, without going through another divine channeler.) WARRIOR-PRIEST [Divine] Your faith is based at least partially on strength and conflict, and your deity invests you with powers drawn from this. Prerequisite: Divine Inspiration, Access to the Strength, War, or Destruction spheres, Channel Faith 4 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 2 ranks. Roleplay Requirement: When charging, you must cry out your deity's name. If you do not, you lose access to this feat until you next pray (see Divine Inspiration). Benefit: Add Strength of the Gods (Str) and Battle Cry (Cha) to your list of class skills for your current class and all future classes. You learn one additional miracle of your choice from any of the prerequiste spheres you have access to. You may store one more level of divine impetus (see the Channel Faith skill). Special: A fighter who meets the prerequisites can take Warrior-Priest as one of his fighter bonus feats. NOTE: You can still cause miracles tied to skills granted by a lost feat; they're just weaker. This includes Divine Inspiration. Thus, you can displease your gods in modular fashions without being immediately cut-off from divine powers, and displeasure from the gods can be represented in-game easily enough without crippling a character. Subtle point, too: these skills were cross-class skills for any character with Divine Inspiration. They're class skills for people with this feat. Thus, we shouldn't feel restricted by feats when assigning miracles their skills and spheres -- even priests without access to these three spheres can cause miracles tied to those two skills, although they won't be as good at it as priests of deities associated with those spheres. If you want to create specialized miracles based off of different skills not accessable to the general priest -- which would be GREAT for prestige classes in general -- those skills remain exclusive until the conditions are met. Only the basic skills that reflect general clericlike abilities become cross-class with Divine Inspiration. DIVINE SKILLS Divine skills are like 3rd edition exclusive skills, in that not just anyone can take ranks in them. They represent training and practice in channelling divine miracles into this world. While divine skills aren't necessary to cause miracles, a practiced channeler can produce significantly more impressive results than those just now discovering the spark. Only characters with the Divine Inspiration feat can take ranks in any divine skill, and some require other divine feats to access at all. Most, but not all, are trained-only as well; the DM may require you to be a member of a particular church's clergy to gain training in some skills, while other skills are limited by deity. CHANNEL FAITH (Divine skill, Wisdom) Use this skill to call upon the power of your deity. It can be used to empower your physical form with the divine impetus to cause miracles, or can channel the spiritual energy about the world to affect undead*. This skill also reflects your experience with divine energy, and can thus be used to identify miracles in action. Empower Impetus (DC 15): As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can channel the will of your deity and empower yourself with a small fraction of his or her divine impetus. (For those who don't know, 'impetus' essentially means 'the will to move or change.') When you complete the check, you store your maximum level of divine impetus (see below). Divine impetus is needed to cause any miracles; most only require a single level of impetus to activate, but some require more. At first level, you can only store a single level of divine impetus at a time; this amount increases with character level: 1st-5th: 1 level 6th-10th: 2 levels 11th-15th: 3 levels 15th-20th: 4 levels *This is the maximum, although an epic feat could extend it. Levels in Divine Channeler and many divine feats expand this limit. If you lose access to the Divine Inspiration feat, you cannot use this skill to regain divine impetus, although you retain any stored divine impetus from earlier. Know Miracle (DC varies): This mirrors Spellcraft. Channel Energy (DC 10): This'd be the replacement to Turn/Rebuke Undead. RT has a few ideas on this he'd expand upon. The idea is a higher check gives you a better result, but the effects are still limited, and it'd cost you divine impetus to do so. Later feats could add abilities similar to divine feats to this at either commensurately higher DCs or impetus costs. SUCCOR (Divine skill, Wisdom, Trained-only) Your spirituality empowers your healing. Miracles based on mending wounds, healing diseases, and removing conditions are tied to this skill. Hands Of A Healer (DC 15): A DC 15 Succor check can allow you to treat a single Heal check as if you had rolled a 15. This takes place as part of the action needed to use the Heal check. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Heal, you gain a +2 bonus on Succor checks. Every 5 ranks you have in Succor grants you a +2 bonus on Heal checks. (Yes, the scaling synergy is deliberate. No, not every skill will be based off of Wisdom -- key skills to miracles of personal power, for instance, should probably be keyed to Strength. I see no more than THIRTEEN divine skills -- Channel Faith plus two per ability score -- ideally.) General overview of causing miracles: You know a small list of miracles drawn from spheres (the expanded domains that RT proposed above) which are themselves grouped by deity, plus the deity's signature miracle orison. To cause a miracle is similar to the old way of casting spells -- you present your deity's holy symbol (or similar divine focus if the deity allows; Obad-Hai, for instance, allows his symbols, holly, or mistletoe, while Kord allows his symbol or any martial weapon bearing it), invoke their name, and the miracle occurs. No special gesturing is required (since when did divine casters care about spell failure anyway?), although it does require you to channel divine impetus from your soul into the world. When you cause a miracle, you expend one or more levels of divine impetus. Each miracle has a minimum number of required levels, and most produce stronger effects if you expend more than that minimum. Divine impetus expended is lost, but it can be regained with a Channel Faith check. A successful check (as a full-round action) restores all your lost divine impetus, which remains until you expend it. You are limited in how much impetus you can expend at one time based on your channeler level (see below), not your character level: 1st-5th: 1 level at once 6th-10th: 2 levels at once 11th-15th: 3 levels at once 15th-20th: 4 levels at once *This is the maximum, although an epic feat could extend it. Even if you have more impetus stored than this limit, you cannot expend more than that to cause any single miracle. You have access to every sphere that your deity has (for now, think of these spheres as the same as their domains, but with appropriate cleric list spells added). You learn a set number of miracles from these based on your feats; Divine Channelers learn more. Note that miracles don't scale based on your "caster level" by and large, but rather grow stronger with additional impetus. Signature orisons are unique miracles that each deity has. Just because Pelor and Heironius both have the Good sphere doesn't mean their faithful go about their business the same way. Signature orisons DO scale, although they're based on your "channeler level" -- which is your level in Divine Channeler plus one-half your levels in other classes. Signature orisons are the ONLY place where they scale for free -- every other miracle requires divine impetus to improve. Signature orisons represent the direct influence of your deity, as opposed to his influence through his affiliated spheres. EXAMPLE MIRACLE: Mend the Wounded Sphere: Healing Key Skill: Succor Requirements: None (I see certain miracles being limited by alignment, for instance, while others could have minimum ranks in Knowledge(Religion) or RP requirements.) Action: Standard Impetus: 1 level Effect: You lay your hand on a creature and, through your faith and devotion, your deity heals its wounds. You restore a number of hit points to the target equal to your Wisdom bonus (minimum 1). Additionally, make a DC 15 Succor check; if successful, you restore 1d8 additional hit points to the target, +1d8 per 5 points your check beat the DC. Empowerment: You can empower this miracle in one of two ways: 1) Every additional level of divine impetus you expend grants you a +10 bonus on the Succor check. 2) If you expend two additional levels of divine impetus, you heal all creatures you designate within a 30' radius of you in a burst of holy power instead of just the creature touched. Yes, it's weaker than some of the stronger Cures. Note that it can be used indefinitely, and by any class. Do note that it doesn't damage undead, either -- positive energy needs to be dissociated from healing. For options against undead, look to the adaptation of Turn Undead. EXAMPLE DEITY FORMAT Olidammara God of Rogues Symbol goes here Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Portfolio: (I forget what his is, exactly.) Spheres: Chaos, Luck, Trickery (Plus more as we develop them.) Orison: Devil May Care: As an immediate action, you may expend one level of divine impetus to adjust one d20 roll. Be warned: luck is as often bad as good. Roll 1d4: On a 1, reduce the result by 1d6, on a 2, the result is unchanged, on a 3, improve the result by 1d6, and on a 4, reroll the d20 (you are forced to take the reroll). As your channeler level increases, you gain favor in the eye of the god of rogues, and can cheat the odds. At channeler level 5, you roll 2d4 instead of 1d4, at channeler level 10 it's 3d4, and at channeler level 15 and higher it's 4d4. You choose which die result dictates the adjustment of the d20. Special: Priests of Olidammara are more unpredictable and spontaneous than most other priests; the Laughing God allows them to pray for the Divine Inspiration feat at any time of day they want, so long as at least one day has passed since they last did so. Olidammara favors stealth and cunning over flashy displays; if you are using the Hide skill (or similar means to escape detection), you do not need to speak to cause his miracles. The specials are minor tweaks unique to each deity and expand on the basics of the ruleset; it's okay if they overlap so long as they fit the feel of the deity. You usually note the prayer time here at the very least. Divine Channeler is a simple PrC that can be entered as early as 2nd level, requiring nothing more than a few ranks in Channel Faith and everything needed to get that. It'd be the equivalent of a full Cleric, gaining bonus Divine feats and more miracles than anyone else, plus perhaps a few other signature abilities. It may only be 5 levels long itself; additional cleric-type PrCs would obviously be optimally entered by divine channelers, but that shouldn't be the only way. Other divine feats would make other divine skills class skills (these would reflect things such as skill channeling healing, power over self-buffs, flashy evocations, and so on), adding miracles to your known list, and so on. These other feats would have the [Divine] tag, and could only be taken by one with the Divine Inspiration feat (sort of like psionics and wild talent, or incarnum and an essentia pool). All right, I'm tired and I've put off writing my paper long enough. I'll stop there. NOTES: 1) Note that I'm not calling anything "divine spells" or "magic" here. I'm being careful to use words that reflect something completely different, but transparent. You are not a divine spellcaster casting spells, you are a divine channeler causing miracles. The term "miracleworker" might be used, but I figured divine channeler sounded more fantastic (like the difference between "mage or spellcaster" and "magic-user"). 2) Turn Undead is included here, but is likely to undergo some VAST overhauls into something far more streamlined for d20 as opposed to a byzantine relic from older editions. It may not LOOK the same, but the cleric's power over undead is going to be present in divine channelers. Thoughts? Should this keep on going?
enygmatic_me 12-02-06, 01:03 AM	I have to say I really like this idea. I have only one concern with the overall concept though. How would this work with the arcane caster classes? A system like this could just stack on to an already powerful set of abilities (i.e. spells). A wizard or sorcerer who would get full arcane progression and the ability to heal themselves by taking feats is a little bit of a scary idea. Yes, it cuts into them taking Metamagic feats, but I don't think many would complain about not being able to take Eschew Materials to heal themselves.
Seerow 12-02-06, 01:11 AM	I have to say I really like this idea. I have only one concern with the overall concept though. How would this work with the arcane caster classes? A system like this could just stack on to an already powerful set of abilities (i.e. spells). A wizard or sorcerer who would get full arcane progression and the ability to heal themselves by taking feats is a little bit of a scary idea. Yes, it cuts into them taking Metamagic feats, but I don't think many would complain about not being able to take Eschew Materials to heal themselves. Mystic Theurge? Arcane Disciple+Domain Spontaneity/Spontaneous Healer? Tempest: That looks good, and you put a lot of thought into it... but I need time to digest that.
Tempest Stormwind 12-02-06, 01:31 AM	Tempest: That looks good, and you put a lot of thought into it... but I need time to digest that. Actually, that was just all off the top of my head, beyond a couple edits to include examples (which I had in my head but didn't type up). But by all means, take all the time you need. I'll need to do some balancing on that, of course, since it was just off the cuff. Off the top of my head, I'd say that the impetus scaling would be the most likely area to break, not to mention the basic miracle scaling. That said, it would imply the following changes to the system: 1) Spell collapse. Many spells could be rolled into a single miracle. We don't need all those healing spells. We'd need very few that actually restored HP -- say, one that did it instantly, one that did it via fast healing, and maybe one that worked like Heal. Augments through divine impetus could add area affects or improve their power. 2) Divine restructuring. We don't need as many spheres with this in mind, nor anywhere near as many spells. The removal of the general Cleric list would also force many other spells into the domains (spheres). 3) Deity choice matters! There was literally NO difference between clerics of the same alignment with the same domains before, aside from a bit of roleplay. Here, the deity has minor RP additions to the system and a unique effect that would be interesting to the classes most likely to venerate them. 4) Similarly, there's now CODIFIED RP concerns with the issue -- and note that they're modular. Using the example feats above, a priest of Kord (who may very well be a barbarian) may be unable to scream "FOR KORD!" at the top of his lungs during a particular charge, which violates the tenets of the warrior-priest -- BUT NOT the tenets of his faith (since he's still faithful to Kord and prays each day), nor those of any other feat he has. Thus, his other areas of miracleworking are left untouched, and he can still even use his warrior-priest miracles, even though he can't improve them with skill checks (Note that the way that I've built these so far is that additional impetus empowers the skill check, not the miracle directly, although some might work differently). If a priest were to violate the tenets of his faith altogether (losing access to the Divine Inspiration feat via prerequisite loss), he'd be stuck with whatever impetus he still had left from his last channeling, and that's it, but could still cause miracles with that (at the weakest effect, since every divine feat requires Divine Inspiration and without it, he lost them too). I think it's worth pursuing. Hell, I might even develop it for another Dreamscarred book over Christmas break... Just have to get past a term paper first.
NoldorForce 12-02-06, 06:06 PM	Looks nice, but I don't like the fact that it's tied specifically to Wisdom. (This is a beef I have with spellcasting in general, actually.) There are some divine casters out there who aren't dependent on it, such as the archivist (Intelligence) and shugenja (Charisma). Do we really need to tie it down like that?
Tempest Stormwind 12-02-06, 06:13 PM	Looks nice, but I don't like the fact that it's tied specifically to Wisdom. (This is a beef I have with spellcasting in general, actually.) There are some divine casters out there who aren't dependent on it, such as the archivist (Intelligence) and shugenja (Charisma). Do we really need to tie it down like that? As I said many times in the post I was working on, it wouldn't entirely be tied to wisdom. Only three skills -- the two Wisdom skills (Succor and a divination-type skill, say, "visions" or something) and Channel Faith -- are tied to Wisdom. The others, the ones tied to miracles related to other classes (strength and physical power, speed and stealth, endurance and blasting, and so on) are tied to other abilities. Note that the two skills mentioned in the second divine feat are linked to Strength and Charisma. Wisdom's important, but not THE divine skill. The only reason it's tied to the core is because we expect religious-types to be wise.
RadicalTaoist 12-02-06, 11:11 PM	As much as I love it (and I've discussed it with Tempest over MSN) I just realized the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC has a class feature called Divine Impetus. Then again, we're making that PrC obsolete by removing divine spellcasting classes, so we may not care.
Tempest Stormwind 12-02-06, 11:30 PM	As much as I love it (and I've discussed it with Tempest over MSN) I just realized the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC has a class feature called Divine Impetus. Then again, we're making that PrC obsolete by removing divine spellcasting classes, so we may not care. To be honest, I was unaware of that ability, as I still don't own a copy (blasted shipping problems). Any thoughts as to what the other major skills should be? A general guideline: Look at what classes that favor that ability score would be interested in gaining from the Cleric list and have those miracles tied to that. A weak standalone affect can be tied to ranks in that skill (say, Strength of the Gods would give you a bonus on Strength checks on its own), but the skill would also serve to empower miracles related to it (based on physical power and combat prowess in the case of Strength of the Gods). Also, another obvious restriction: Items probably shouldn't be allowed to boost Divine skills, unless you craft them yourself. No +30 Channel Faith items for you, boys, this is meant to be a balanced system.
Newpaintbrush 12-03-06, 12:06 AM	I . . . disagree. Qualified disagreement. Actually, I think it would be nice if EVERYTHING was feat and skill based. So you could custom-build a character, and give it pretty much whatever base attack bonus progression, spellcasting progression, skills, and feats you wanted, just using up a number of feats and skills to do it. -- On the subject of giving fighters the ability to cast divine spells using feats - 1. I agree that fighters need a boost, but I think it's just because fighters are only good at fighting - and not even very good at that. 2. I would rather see a fighter that is good at FIGHTING than a fighter that has some kind of divine spells. Allow them to take a feat to increase their BAB every fourth level of fighter, maybe give them some sort of ability to choose between damage reduction or regeneration . . . and give them some ability to increase their ability to attack. There are feats that let you do stuff that a fighter SHOULD be able to do, but the requirements are such that pure-built fighters can't really take them. 3. Tying in DIVINE spells with fighter abilities is really something that should be tied in to a prestige class. Actually, it already is. I think someone mentioned that. But in addition to that - if you simply lament the inability of a fighter to cast spells, and are willing to lose feats, why not play a paladin or ranger? 4. As already mentioned, if you made healing feats, you could have . . . healing wizards! Which is pretty zomg. But not that I object; they gave clerics nine spell levels, summoning, divination, and buffs, spontaneous healing . . .
Tempest Stormwind 12-03-06, 12:19 AM	I . . . disagree. Qualified disagreement. Actually, I think it would be nice if EVERYTHING was feat and skill based. So you could custom-build a character, and give it pretty much whatever base attack bonus progression, spellcasting progression, skills, and feats you wanted, just using up a number of feats and skills to do it.Unearthed Arcana might be for you, then.On the subject of giving fighters the ability to cast divine spells using feats -Not just the fighter, actually. This is more a "remove divine casting from the game" than "upgrade the fighter".1. I agree that fighters need a boost, but I think it's just because fighters are only good at fighting - and not even very good at that. 2. I would rather see a fighter that is good at FIGHTING than a fighter that has some kind of divine spells. Allow them to take a feat to increase their BAB every fourth level of fighter, maybe give them some sort of ability to choose between damage reduction or regeneration . . . and give them some ability to increase their ability to attack. There are feats that let you do stuff that a fighter SHOULD be able to do, but the requirements are such that pure-built fighters can't really take them. Warblade's a good enough fix for me. I consider Fighter an NPC class that's worth dipping. Besides, this is not a thread about fighters. It's more a thread about replacing the cleric. 3. Tying in DIVINE spells with fighter abilities is really something that should be tied in to a prestige class. Actually, it already is. I think someone mentioned that. But in addition to that - if you simply lament the inability of a fighter to cast spells, and are willing to lose feats, why not play a paladin or ranger?Because under this fix, those classes wouldn't exist.4. As already mentioned, if you made healing feats, you could have . . . healing wizards! Which is pretty zomg. But not that I object; they gave clerics nine spell levels, summoning, divination, and buffs, spontaneous healing . . .It's not ZOMG, they can already do it with only one feat (Extra Spell), which is to say nothing about Bard/Wizard/Ultimate Magus. And in truth, the healing here is closer to Lay on Hands than Cure Light Wounds.
Dragoncat 01-08-07, 08:46 PM	Brilliant. The more I read it over and ponder it, the more I like the idea of skill-based casting. The ability to ration skill points to choose what to improve and the lack of clunky leveling is significant, but the amazing element of this system lies in side effects of using skill points. In particular? Aid Another. The congregation singing a hymn for an injured friend, the infernal cult chanting a ritual of destruction, the shamanic council gathered around a totem, the adventuring party just flat out praying to survive impending doom. With Channel Faith usable untrained, suddenly the masses gain power, the cleric's followers have purpose, and the faith of a nation or church has might, assuming their clerics can channel it. With that in mind, two quirks about Channel Faith, the only minor nitpicks I have with the system as it stands. 1) Should there only be 4 levels of capacity? It's an easily adjustable number, which might change later, but it seems as though that is insufficient to provide much room for fluidity. Four has precedence in the levels of invocations, but a larger number, five or eight coming to mind, may provide more fine control over channel. Kind of a minor issue, but worth stating. 2) Should the DC 15 check restore all impetus? It seems to leave little point in advancing Channel Faith beyond that level. A possible alternative would be something of a parallel of the Swordsage and Warblade. For ordinary channelers, Empower Impetus returns a certain amount of impetus, starting at one level and advancing slightly based on the check result. A base class of divine channeling could gain full impetus from empowering as a class result. Aside from that, the system is rather nifty. I like the way impetus is similar to the rather nifty psionic focus, the array of attributes that different divine skills rely upon, and the direct transition of deity spheres to abilities. The fact that any character can have faith and gain power if they personally invest in it is simply brilliant. All in all, quite a promising system.
RadicalTaoist 01-08-07, 09:51 PM	I know that Tempest is waiting for the new Star Wars d20 system to come out for ideas-scavenging purposes before we refine this further. I agree with him on that principle ("A great artist does not borrow; he steals." -Stravinsky), although I personally don't think the direction they're going (one Use Force skill) is what I want to do with this system (although it may work out fine for SWD20). If you want more fine detail in miracles, it might be better for you to have to combine skill checks from multiple divine skills (I'm drawing inspiration from Tales of Phantasia's combo techs here) to use the most powerful miracles. As for Channel Faith, there's the matter of other skill uses for which additional ranks would prove useful.
RadicalTaoist 04-20-07, 03:45 PM	Bump to avoid being sent to the archives.
Melayl 05-10-07, 11:22 PM	I gotta say, I really, really like this. Please, give us more!
angellis_ater 05-25-07, 06:12 AM	I gotta say, I really, really like this. Please, give us more! As I told Tempest before, this is the singularly BEST idea for divine "magic" I've ever seen for D&D (D20).
RadicalTaoist 05-25-07, 01:16 PM	Tempest is swamped with work and I'm not the king of free time either. On top, other d20 projects have our attention as well (two or three each for both of us, one of them something else we're collaborating on). I'm very glad you guys have that much faith in us but frankly there's only so much revolutionary development a guy (or two) can work on at one time. Thanks for the support nonetheless.
Tempest Stormwind 05-25-07, 01:20 PM	Besides, check the Saga Edition previews. They effectively did EXACTLY this for the Force there, with a simplification to account for how they handled skills. The combined project RT and I are working on does use a system similar to a hybrid of this and Saga; you'll see it when it's ready.
Melayl 05-25-07, 05:41 PM	The combined project RT and I are working on does use a system similar to a hybrid of this and Saga; you'll see it when it's ready. Good enough for me. Let us know when it's ready. :)