Feint + Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feint + Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Unseen_Illusion
05-06-07, 01:27 AM Alright. it says in the PH that feinting is a standard action. It also says that chraging is a full-round action. But under charge, it says that if your character only has a standard or move action left in his turn, he may still charge, but only at his base speed. It fails to mention whether or not you can attack at the end of a charge if you only use a standard/move action. My question is: Can I feint, then charge and still get an attack?

If so that would be killer for a rogue XD
jaelis
05-06-07, 01:38 AM The rule says that in a situation where you are restricted to only a standard or move action (because it's a surprise round, or you're slowed for instance), you may still charge. No matter what, a charge is a full round action, so the only way to combine a feint with a charge is if you can feint as a swift action.

And since you need to be in melee combat with the target of a feint, it would only work in very unusual situations even then.
The_Unseen_Illusion
05-06-07, 01:55 AM sooo... it wouldnt work even with the Improved Feint feat?
Longarms
05-06-07, 02:12 AM "Can I feint, then charge and still get an attack?"

You need to have 10' of seperation to charge. If you are that far away, how are you going to feint? e.g. I think you can only feint opponent's you threaten with a melee attack.
CantripN
05-06-07, 06:28 AM That's what Neraph Charge is for...
kjenks
05-06-07, 04:50 PM "Can I feint, then charge and still get an attack?"

You need to have 10' of seperation to charge. If you are that far away, how are you going to feint? e.g. I think you can only feint opponent's you threaten with a melee attack.

Well, sort of.

The rules for Bluff/Feint don't actually say that you must threaten your opponent. Instead, they say...

SRD
===
Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
===

So, your DM might interpret that phrase "opponent in melee combat " in any of three ways, (1) you must be in melee combat to make your Bluff check, (2) you can only use this skill to make a melee attack, or (3) both (1) and (2).

(2) is redundant with the later phase, "for the next melee attack you make against it." So we know the correct answer must be either (2) or (3). So do you need to threaten your opponent in melee combat to use this ability? It's a DM call.

I say no, you don't need to threaten your foe to fake him out. You can fake out your opponent from a distance. This doesn't do you any good unless you make a melee attack "on or before your next turn."

But I can understand it if a DM interprets this the other way, requiring you to be in melee range both when you make the feint and when you make the attack.

You can still feint and charge, though: Round 1, feint then move away, tumbling if necessary. Round 2, charge.
Longarms
05-06-07, 05:59 PM Well, feinting from a distance certainly would make feinting more useful. You make a pretty good case for allowing it, but I doubt most DMs would.
lord_xarallon
05-07-07, 03:24 AM That's what Neraph Charge is for...

Seconded
Neraph Charge is found here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Charge,all).

Otherwise, 5 levels of Invisible Blade from CW let feint as a free action (though only with a dagger, kukri, or punching dagger)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Unseen_Illusion 05-06-07, 01:27 AM	Alright. it says in the PH that feinting is a standard action. It also says that chraging is a full-round action. But under charge, it says that if your character only has a standard or move action left in his turn, he may still charge, but only at his base speed. It fails to mention whether or not you can attack at the end of a charge if you only use a standard/move action. My question is: Can I feint, then charge and still get an attack? If so that would be killer for a rogue XD
jaelis 05-06-07, 01:38 AM	The rule says that in a situation where you are restricted to only a standard or move action (because it's a surprise round, or you're slowed for instance), you may still charge. No matter what, a charge is a full round action, so the only way to combine a feint with a charge is if you can feint as a swift action. And since you need to be in melee combat with the target of a feint, it would only work in very unusual situations even then.
The_Unseen_Illusion 05-06-07, 01:55 AM	sooo... it wouldnt work even with the Improved Feint feat?
Longarms 05-06-07, 02:12 AM	"Can I feint, then charge and still get an attack?" You need to have 10' of seperation to charge. If you are that far away, how are you going to feint? e.g. I think you can only feint opponent's you threaten with a melee attack.
CantripN 05-06-07, 06:28 AM	That's what Neraph Charge is for...
kjenks 05-06-07, 04:50 PM	"Can I feint, then charge and still get an attack?" You need to have 10' of seperation to charge. If you are that far away, how are you going to feint? e.g. I think you can only feint opponent's you threaten with a melee attack. Well, sort of. The rules for Bluff/Feint don't actually say that you must threaten your opponent. Instead, they say... SRD === Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity. === So, your DM might interpret that phrase "opponent in melee combat " in any of three ways, (1) you must be in melee combat to make your Bluff check, (2) you can only use this skill to make a melee attack, or (3) both (1) and (2). (2) is redundant with the later phase, "for the next melee attack you make against it." So we know the correct answer must be either (2) or (3). So do you need to threaten your opponent in melee combat to use this ability? It's a DM call. I say no, you don't need to threaten your foe to fake him out. You can fake out your opponent from a distance. This doesn't do you any good unless you make a melee attack "on or before your next turn." But I can understand it if a DM interprets this the other way, requiring you to be in melee range both when you make the feint and when you make the attack. You can still feint and charge, though: Round 1, feint then move away, tumbling if necessary. Round 2, charge.
Longarms 05-06-07, 05:59 PM	Well, feinting from a distance certainly would make feinting more useful. You make a pretty good case for allowing it, but I doubt most DMs would.
lord_xarallon 05-07-07, 03:24 AM	That's what Neraph Charge is for... Seconded Neraph Charge is found here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Neraph_Charge,all). Otherwise, 5 levels of Invisible Blade from CW let feint as a free action (though only with a dagger, kukri, or punching dagger)