Feint vs. some stuff [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feint vs. some stuff [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Carte
07-28-07, 01:21 PM Just want some clarification on this.

If you succeed on a feint, would your opponent lose his AC bonus from fighting defensively and/or Combat Expertise? What about a duelist with the Canny Defense ability (+Int as dodge to AC)?

Does a feint work against someone with Uncanny Dodge?

Thanks.
TorgSmackie
07-28-07, 01:31 PM Fighting defensively and Combat Expertise are separate from your Dex bonus, so they'd probably still apply.

Canny defense says right there, "if a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus."

Uncanny dodge doesn't say anything about being feinted, so feinting should still work.
Rebel581
07-28-07, 01:56 PM Fighting defensively and Combat Expertise are separate from your Dex bonus, so they'd probably still apply.

Canny defense says right there, "if a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus."

Uncanny dodge doesn't say anything about being feinted, so feinting should still work.

Uncanny dodge specifies that you can apply your dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed. You can still be caught flat-footed, but it doesn't really matter since the rogue's sneak attack ability (in example), says that it only works if they're denied their dex bonus.

Combat expertise and fighting defensively are added to dodge AC and would be lost after getting feinted.
zelf_gale
07-28-07, 05:25 PM All quotes from the SRD.

What is a feint?

FEINT

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.

Note that feinting does not refer to the flat-footed condition, it refers to the "Dexterity bonus to AC" only in its listed effects.

What does Uncanny Dodge do?

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Note that Uncanny dodge only refers to two situations that allow characters to maintain a "Dexterity bonus to AC" when they otherwise wouldn't. The "flat-footed" condition and when being struck by an invisible attacker.

I have not played in a game where characters with Uncanny Dodge were immune to a successful Feint. One might also mention that several of the classes with Uncanny Dodge however have either a high base attack bonus and/or Sense Motive as a class skill, making the viability of such a tactic questionable. Often feints are best paired with a sneak attack like ability and used on targets without Sense Motive ranks and/or low base attack bonuses.

What happens to dodge bonuses from Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, Dodge, Uncanny Defense, etc. when a character loses "Dexterity bonus to AC"?

Dodge Bonuses: Some other AC bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

Obviously from this quote, you are denied all your dodge bonuses against attacks where you were denied your "Dexterity bonus to AC".
Rebel581
07-28-07, 06:52 PM Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.Note that Uncanny dodge only refers to two situations that allow characters to maintain a "Dexterity bonus to AC" when they otherwise wouldn't. The "flat-footed" condition and when being struck by an invisible attacker.

I have not played in a game where characters with Uncanny Dodge were immune to a successful Feint. One might also mention that several of the classes with Uncanny Dodge however have either a high base attack bonus and/or Sense Motive as a class skill, making the viability of such a tactic questionable. Often feints are best paired with a sneak attack like ability and used on targets without Sense Motive ranks and/or low base attack bonuses.

It says "even" if struck by those two conditions. It does not list them exclusively. The "however" lists being immobilized as an exclusive condition that it doesn't work. I believe being feinted is included in this because you always retain your dexterity bonus to AC. It lists the two times when most commonly you are denied your dexterity bonus. It does not limit it to those two times.
Kouk
07-29-07, 08:56 AM It says "even" if struck by those two conditions. It does not list them exclusively. The "however" lists being immobilized as an exclusive condition that it doesn't work. I believe being feinted is included in this because you always retain your dexterity bonus to AC. It lists the two times when most commonly you are denied your dexterity bonus. It does not limit it to those two times.

I will have to disagree on immunity to losing your Dex bonus (for any reason) to AC just with Uncanny Dodge.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Note the period after "caught flat footed" and "invisible attacker". I think the part about Immobilized means, if you are immobilized and caught flat footed, or attacked by an invisible opponent, you still lose your Dex bonus as normal. Pretty much making it so if you are fighting an invisible stalker rogue, you don't retain your immunity to his sneak attacks if you become paralyzed.

The Rules of the Game article "All about Sneak Attacks" part 3 says this:
Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attacks

The uncanny dodge class ability is just about the nastiest sneak attack breaker in the game. Only immunity to critical hits offers more absolute protection against sneak attacks. So, uncanny dodge gets a section in the article all to itself.

The uncanny dodge ability allows a flat-footed creature to retain its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and it foils sneak attacks when in does so.

The uncanny dodge ability also allows a creature to use its Dexterity bonus (if any) against unseen foes, so an unseen foe must find some other way to make sneak attacks against creatures with this ability.

Uncanny dodge does not allow a creature to keep its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) when it physically cannot move. If you're grappled, held, helpless, incapacitated, pinned, or stunned, you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. If you're attacked while climbing, you also cannot use your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Uncanny dodge doesn't allow you to retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class in any of these cases.

You can still move while Grappling and Climbing but those are instances when you are denied your DEX bonus to AC that still count towards allowing a Sneak Attack.

Oddly enough, the articles don't really mention Feinting at all, but Uncanny Dodge is not an immunity under all circumstances.

I also think a successful Feint should be one of those circumstances though.
TorgSmackie
07-29-07, 11:12 AM Uncanny dodge lets you keep your Dex bonus when flatfooted or struck by an invisible attacker. Being feinted is neither of these, so there's no reason it shouldn't work.

I hadn't seen the dodge bonus thing before though, so that's neat.
Egres
07-29-07, 07:12 PM From the 3.5 FAQ:

Uncanny dodge doesn’t protect you from all situations
that would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC. It only lets
you retain your Dexterity bonus if “caught flat-footed or struck
by an invisible attacker.” A feint doesn’t render a target flatfooted,
it just doesn’t allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to
AC against your next melee attack made on or before your next
turn.
zuul88
07-30-07, 11:49 AM First......I Love the Search function got restored.

Second......http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060515a

It bothered me because I have never played that uncanny dodge beats feint. Considering I hate people who just say your wrong, I went and found the specific answer from Ask Wizards.
Feinted is not Flat-Footed, so SA counts.

Respect
Nathan

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Carte 07-28-07, 01:21 PM	Just want some clarification on this. If you succeed on a feint, would your opponent lose his AC bonus from fighting defensively and/or Combat Expertise? What about a duelist with the Canny Defense ability (+Int as dodge to AC)? Does a feint work against someone with Uncanny Dodge? Thanks.
TorgSmackie 07-28-07, 01:31 PM	Fighting defensively and Combat Expertise are separate from your Dex bonus, so they'd probably still apply. Canny defense says right there, "if a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus." Uncanny dodge doesn't say anything about being feinted, so feinting should still work.
Rebel581 07-28-07, 01:56 PM	Fighting defensively and Combat Expertise are separate from your Dex bonus, so they'd probably still apply. Canny defense says right there, "if a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus." Uncanny dodge doesn't say anything about being feinted, so feinting should still work. Uncanny dodge specifies that you can apply your dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed. You can still be caught flat-footed, but it doesn't really matter since the rogue's sneak attack ability (in example), says that it only works if they're denied their dex bonus. Combat expertise and fighting defensively are added to dodge AC and would be lost after getting feinted.
zelf_gale 07-28-07, 05:25 PM	All quotes from the SRD. What is a feint? FEINT Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn. When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action. Note that feinting does not refer to the flat-footed condition, it refers to the "Dexterity bonus to AC" only in its listed effects. What does Uncanny Dodge do? Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Note that Uncanny dodge only refers to two situations that allow characters to maintain a "Dexterity bonus to AC" when they otherwise wouldn't. The "flat-footed" condition and when being struck by an invisible attacker. I have not played in a game where characters with Uncanny Dodge were immune to a successful Feint. One might also mention that several of the classes with Uncanny Dodge however have either a high base attack bonus and/or Sense Motive as a class skill, making the viability of such a tactic questionable. Often feints are best paired with a sneak attack like ability and used on targets without Sense Motive ranks and/or low base attack bonuses. What happens to dodge bonuses from Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, Dodge, Uncanny Defense, etc. when a character loses "Dexterity bonus to AC"? Dodge Bonuses: Some other AC bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other. Obviously from this quote, you are denied all your dodge bonuses against attacks where you were denied your "Dexterity bonus to AC".
Rebel581 07-28-07, 06:52 PM	Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.Note that Uncanny dodge only refers to two situations that allow characters to maintain a "Dexterity bonus to AC" when they otherwise wouldn't. The "flat-footed" condition and when being struck by an invisible attacker. I have not played in a game where characters with Uncanny Dodge were immune to a successful Feint. One might also mention that several of the classes with Uncanny Dodge however have either a high base attack bonus and/or Sense Motive as a class skill, making the viability of such a tactic questionable. Often feints are best paired with a sneak attack like ability and used on targets without Sense Motive ranks and/or low base attack bonuses. It says "even" if struck by those two conditions. It does not list them exclusively. The "however" lists being immobilized as an exclusive condition that it doesn't work. I believe being feinted is included in this because you always retain your dexterity bonus to AC. It lists the two times when most commonly you are denied your dexterity bonus. It does not limit it to those two times.
Kouk 07-29-07, 08:56 AM	It says "even" if struck by those two conditions. It does not list them exclusively. The "however" lists being immobilized as an exclusive condition that it doesn't work. I believe being feinted is included in this because you always retain your dexterity bonus to AC. It lists the two times when most commonly you are denied your dexterity bonus. It does not limit it to those two times. I will have to disagree on immunity to losing your Dex bonus (for any reason) to AC just with Uncanny Dodge. Uncanny Dodge (Ex) At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. Note the period after "caught flat footed" and "invisible attacker". I think the part about Immobilized means, if you are immobilized and caught flat footed, or attacked by an invisible opponent, you still lose your Dex bonus as normal. Pretty much making it so if you are fighting an invisible stalker rogue, you don't retain your immunity to his sneak attacks if you become paralyzed. The Rules of the Game article "All about Sneak Attacks" part 3 says this: Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attacks The uncanny dodge class ability is just about the nastiest sneak attack breaker in the game. Only immunity to critical hits offers more absolute protection against sneak attacks. So, uncanny dodge gets a section in the article all to itself. The uncanny dodge ability allows a flat-footed creature to retain its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and it foils sneak attacks when in does so. The uncanny dodge ability also allows a creature to use its Dexterity bonus (if any) against unseen foes, so an unseen foe must find some other way to make sneak attacks against creatures with this ability. Uncanny dodge does not allow a creature to keep its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) when it physically cannot move. If you're grappled, held, helpless, incapacitated, pinned, or stunned, you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. If you're attacked while climbing, you also cannot use your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Uncanny dodge doesn't allow you to retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class in any of these cases. You can still move while Grappling and Climbing but those are instances when you are denied your DEX bonus to AC that still count towards allowing a Sneak Attack. Oddly enough, the articles don't really mention Feinting at all, but Uncanny Dodge is not an immunity under all circumstances. I also think a successful Feint should be one of those circumstances though.
TorgSmackie 07-29-07, 11:12 AM	Uncanny dodge lets you keep your Dex bonus when flatfooted or struck by an invisible attacker. Being feinted is neither of these, so there's no reason it shouldn't work. I hadn't seen the dodge bonus thing before though, so that's neat.
Egres 07-29-07, 07:12 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: Uncanny dodge doesn’t protect you from all situations that would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC. It only lets you retain your Dexterity bonus if “caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.” A feint doesn’t render a target flatfooted, it just doesn’t allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC against your next melee attack made on or before your next turn.
zuul88 07-30-07, 11:49 AM	First......I Love the Search function got restored. Second......http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060515a It bothered me because I have never played that uncanny dodge beats feint. Considering I hate people who just say your wrong, I went and found the specific answer from Ask Wizards. Feinted is not Flat-Footed, so SA counts. Respect Nathan