Feint? Hide? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feint? Hide? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Moleculor
11-09-07, 08:01 PM So I'm a newbie DM refreshing myself on the rules of combat, as my group is just about to hit their first actual dungeon, and while I realize that feinting is most likely NOT going to come up in combat in my group, I read up on the rules for it earlier, and I have to say I'm confused.

Feinting is a standard action that removes the dexterity bonus from the person you used it on towards the character's next single attack as long as that attack is made before that character's next turn? Doesn't that mean that feint is only useful if you KNOW the monster/NPC is going to do something to allow the character to take an attack of opportunity? Can't take a standard action AND attack in the same round, right?

Also, how do I go about explaining the 'hide' rules to someone? One of my players seems to think that 'hide' means 'turn invisible', and I need a simple explanation that makes it easier to understand.
key
11-09-07, 10:58 PM Doesn't that mean that feint is only useful if you KNOW the monster/NPC is going to do something to allow the character to take an attack of opportunity? Can't take a standard action AND attack in the same round, right?
Improved Feint makes the feint a move action.

Also, how do I go about explaining the 'hide' rules to someone? One of my players seems to think that 'hide' means 'turn invisible', and I need a simple explanation that makes it easier to understand.
Those hiding in 'hide and seek' are not invisible.
RobbyPants
11-09-07, 11:23 PM Feinting is a standard action that removes the dexterity bonus from the person you used it on towards the character's next single attack as long as that attack is made before that character's next turn? Doesn't that mean that feint is only useful if you KNOW the monster/NPC is going to do something to allow the character to take an attack of opportunity? Can't take a standard action AND attack in the same round, right?
Actually, you're slightly off. Here's what the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) has to say about Bluff regarding feinting (emphasis mine):
Feinting in Combat

You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
So it states that it can be made on or before your next turn. Thus, you can feint as a standard action one turn, and make an attack the next turn (with your opponent denied his Dex bonus to AC). Of course, as key mentioned, Improved Feint will let you do this as a move action, so you can do it once per round.

Although, if you have a rogue in your group looking to get some easy sneak attacks, flanking is generally a more reliable way to do so (and it works for all attacks that round ;)).

Also, how do I go about explaining the 'hide' rules to someone? One of my players seems to think that 'hide' means 'turn invisible', and I need a simple explanation that makes it easier to understand.
Note that hiding and invisible are two very different things. Hiding means you are trying to somehow hide yourself, typically behind something. Hiding requires cover and/or concealment. Turning invsibile renders you unseeable by normal means, even without cover.

Also, note that it is possible to hide while invisible, which is useful if your opponent can see invisible creatures. Thus even if someone can see invisibility, they might still fail to notice someone hiding behind something.

Hope that helps :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moleculor 11-09-07, 08:01 PM	So I'm a newbie DM refreshing myself on the rules of combat, as my group is just about to hit their first actual dungeon, and while I realize that feinting is most likely NOT going to come up in combat in my group, I read up on the rules for it earlier, and I have to say I'm confused. Feinting is a standard action that removes the dexterity bonus from the person you used it on towards the character's next single attack as long as that attack is made before that character's next turn? Doesn't that mean that feint is only useful if you KNOW the monster/NPC is going to do something to allow the character to take an attack of opportunity? Can't take a standard action AND attack in the same round, right? Also, how do I go about explaining the 'hide' rules to someone? One of my players seems to think that 'hide' means 'turn invisible', and I need a simple explanation that makes it easier to understand.
key 11-09-07, 10:58 PM	Doesn't that mean that feint is only useful if you KNOW the monster/NPC is going to do something to allow the character to take an attack of opportunity? Can't take a standard action AND attack in the same round, right? Improved Feint makes the feint a move action. Also, how do I go about explaining the 'hide' rules to someone? One of my players seems to think that 'hide' means 'turn invisible', and I need a simple explanation that makes it easier to understand. Those hiding in 'hide and seek' are not invisible.
RobbyPants 11-09-07, 11:23 PM	Feinting is a standard action that removes the dexterity bonus from the person you used it on towards the character's next single attack as long as that attack is made before that character's next turn? Doesn't that mean that feint is only useful if you KNOW the monster/NPC is going to do something to allow the character to take an attack of opportunity? Can't take a standard action AND attack in the same round, right? Actually, you're slightly off. Here's what the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) has to say about Bluff regarding feinting (emphasis mine): Feinting in Combat You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity. So it states that it can be made on or before your next turn. Thus, you can feint as a standard action one turn, and make an attack the next turn (with your opponent denied his Dex bonus to AC). Of course, as key mentioned, Improved Feint will let you do this as a move action, so you can do it once per round. Although, if you have a rogue in your group looking to get some easy sneak attacks, flanking is generally a more reliable way to do so (and it works for all attacks that round ;)). Also, how do I go about explaining the 'hide' rules to someone? One of my players seems to think that 'hide' means 'turn invisible', and I need a simple explanation that makes it easier to understand. Note that hiding and invisible are two very different things. Hiding means you are trying to somehow hide yourself, typically behind something. Hiding requires cover and/or concealment. Turning invsibile renders you unseeable by normal means, even without cover. Also, note that it is possible to hide while invisible, which is useful if your opponent can see invisible creatures. Thus even if someone can see invisibility, they might still fail to notice someone hiding behind something. Hope that helps :D