Fiery Burst and the Divine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fiery Burst and the Divine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Painlord
07-11-07, 05:54 PM Forgive my Nooberness--

Outside of whether it's a good idea, can my Cleric attain and use the Fiery Burst reserve feat from CM?

I think I can get access to a fire spell through the Sun Domain (heat metal at lvl 2?) or thru Flame Strike (level 5 spell).

Would either of those work?

And, secondly, is it just too silly/underpowered to even consider?

The cleric I'm thinking about creating may like to burn things. And stay out of combat. Surely you can think of a fiery angry god that would appreciate his cleric charring the freak out of bad/good guys, right?

-PainLord
zorgling25
07-11-07, 06:07 PM Forgive my Nooberness--

Outside of whether it's a good idea, can my Cleric attain and use the Fiery Burst reserve feat from CM?

The cleric I'm thinking about creating may like to burn things. And stay out of combat. Surely you can think of a fiery angry god that would appreciate his cleric charring the freak out of bad/good guys, right?

-PainLord

Technically there's nothing in the rule I can see barring this. Fiery burst is a good feat. However, I would reevaluate what you're trying to do before you jump into cleric. The kind of character you are describing seems to fit the bill of an arcane blaster more than a cleric by a LONG shot.

Mechanically, it might work, but I would think of the roleplaying behind it, as a pyromaniacal mage seems more likely than a cleric.
Painlord
07-11-07, 06:33 PM Yar. I appreciate your tact, zorgling25.

Have you met Joramy (goddess of fire, volcanoes, wrath, anger and quarrels)? Or mayhaps Kossuth? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12944109 ... "The Firelord", "Lord of Flames, purification through fire)

In your humble opinion, it does work with the rules, but is tacky and I need to properly work it into my deity? This, I must ponder.

I appreciate your thoughts. At this time, I don't know why my god wouldn't want me burning heathens (bring them to the 'light' of Kossuth) if I could.

Ah...let me ponder my relationship with the elements.

-Painlord
Hsien
07-12-07, 09:06 AM The Heat Mizer's says...

"Burn them!!!! Burn them for the glory of the Eternal Flame and bring forth the Drak Pra. Burn them for Kossuth, Agni, or whatever god of fire you follow.
Thier bodies will be blessed by fire, and you shall see the impurities leave the spirit in the form of the smoke that lifts from their forms ( rant cont...)"

Ok, sorry...I've always had fun playing The Heat Mizer, in various versions for 10+ years now.
Yes you can take that feat, it's not spectacular, but it can fill a nice niche if your often in dungeon settings, with it's smaller AoE.
Plus as long as you have a fire spell memorized, even a domain spell, you can access it.

It's been my experience that Reserve feats really depend more on the type of campaign and group make up to determine if they are worthwhile; but then I think that's true about a lot of feats and skills.
RobbyPants
07-12-07, 11:27 AM Outside of whether it's a good idea, can my Cleric attain and use the Fiery Burst reserve feat from CM?
As others have said, yes it does work.

And, secondly, is it just too silly/underpowered to even consider?
As to whether or not it's a good idea: it depends on the game and the level. From my experience, it looks like reserve feats like Firey Burst give you the best result at low levels. For instance, at level 3, you will do 2d6 damage with your burst, as compared to about 3d6 damage with a spell. Being able to do 2d6 damage over and over while reserving 3d6 damage is quite nice. At higher levels, you can do insane amounts of damage with your 9th level spells. The feat only gives you 9d6 damage. At this point, the 9d6 is almost useless, except against a few weaker foes.

I only say this in that you should expect to get the most milage out of this feat at your lower levels. Also, if you can't come up with any good fire spells to reseve at other levels, this feat will become pretty weak. You will probably want to have a fire spell available as the highest level spell you can cast.
DarkPawn
07-12-07, 11:41 AM My current wizard is using acidic splatter and summon elemental. I took energy substitution (acid) so I can have a memorized acid spell of my highest level.

At 9th level I can cast a cold of cold that would do 9d6, reflex for half.

Or I can hold onto it and do 5d6 each round on a ranged touch attack, no save. Reserve feats aren't subject to Spell Resistance either. That is a huge plus that I've noticed.

The Summon Elemental would fit your character concept too. Well at least if you only summon fire elementals. The nice thing is you can use them for checking for traps, fodder, blocker, flanker, and many other interesting uses. Water elemental to put out a fire. Air elemental to disperse a swarm. I think this feat is highly underrated.
Meep326
07-12-07, 12:00 PM As to whether or not it's a good idea: it depends on the game and the level. From my experience, it looks like reserve feats like Firey Burst give you the best result at low levels. For instance, at level 3, you will do 2d6 damage with your burst, as compared to about 3d6 damage with a spell. Being able to do 2d6 damage over and over while reserving 3d6 damage is quite nice. At higher levels, you can do insane amounts of damage with your 9th level spells. The feat only gives you 9d6 damage. At this point, the 9d6 is almost useless, except against a few weaker foes.
Right, the only real reserve feats I see as being usefull at higher levels are Dimensional Reach and Dimensional Jaunt (mainly for can-trip like stuff). Just the fact that I can teleport myself or small items around at will just seems fun.
Painlord
07-12-07, 02:22 PM Thanks for all the responses. You party peeps have knowledge and experience that I hope that I can one day share with others, but I still learn.

Stupid Reality. I have to learn.

Anyhoot, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can retrain out of this feat when I get to a higher level? I pay some amount of gold and upgrade?

But that's probably considered to be tacky, yes?

-Painlord

p.s. I think I currently struggle between my desire to optomize vs. my desire NOT to be too tacky.
DarkPawn
07-12-07, 02:35 PM Thanks for all the responses. You party peeps have knowledge and experience that I hope that I can one day share with others, but I still learn.

Stupid Reality. I have to learn.

Anyhoot, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can retrain out of this feat when I get to a higher level? I pay some amount of gold and upgrade?

But that's probably considered to be tacky, yes?

-Painlord

p.s. I think I currently struggle between my desire to optomize vs. my desire NOT to be too tacky.

I believe the PHB II has options for such a thing. I really don't agree though with the people saying they are only useful low level.

9d6 damage isn't a ton compared to a 9th level spell. But it is 9d6 as many times as you want. Basically like a natural attack (supernatural actually). Over the course of an adventure, in between resting for spells, you can really add up the damage.

Keep in mind that it blasts through Spell Resistance. That is pretty huge even at epic level.

The elements get stronger from summon elemental. They will never be stronger then large, but unlimited large elementals (air,earth,water, fire) is nothing to sneeze at. If anything they are instant summoned blockers or flankers.

There are a ton more uses for summon elemental, and many of the other feats hold value into epic level campaigns. My opinion, but I honesty think it is far more useful then most think.
RobbyPants
07-12-07, 02:51 PM Keep in mind that it blasts through Spell Resistance. That is pretty huge even at epic level.
I forgot about that. That certainly is a useful feature.
DarkPawn
07-12-07, 04:08 PM I forgot about that. That certainly is a useful feature.

My DM has also forgot about that at times, much to his chagrin. ;)
kyros_the_spawnslayer
07-12-07, 07:12 PM My current wizard is using acidic splatter and summon elemental. I took energy substitution (acid) so I can have a memorized acid spell of my highest level.

Can you do that? I Always thought reserve feats feed off actual non-modded spells
DarkPawn
07-12-07, 11:18 PM Can you do that? I Always thought reserve feats feed off actual non-modded spells

Yes you can do that. If you memorizes spells, not if you spontaneously cast them.

It keys off school, subschool, and/or descriptor. In the case of someone who prepares spells ahead of time, adding energy substitution actually changes the descriptor.

It is in your memory as an acid descriptor spell. You can't for example alter a fireball into acid descriptor, then change it back after you memorized it or when you cast it. It therefore qualifies for an acid spell for the reserve feat acidic splatter.
runestar
07-12-07, 11:28 PM Yes you can do that. If you memorizes spells, not if you spontaneously cast them.
I think it works for spontaneous spellcasters as well.

Say if a sorc has heighten spell and acid splash, he will always have an acid spell of the highest lv available for fueling the effects of acid splatter. This means that even though he may not know of any acid spells of his highest lv, he can effectively use heighten spell to meet the requirements of all his different reserve feat.

For example, say I am a lv14 sorc who took limited wish as my 7th lv spell known. With heighten spell, I am capable of casting acid splash as a 7th lv spell, can cast burning hands as a 7th lv fire spell, can cast ray of frost as a 7th lv cold spell, can cast summon monster1 as a 7th lv summon spell etc....:)

And all my reserve feats would be augmented accordingly, so as I have at least 1 7th lv slot to fuel all of them.
DarkPawn
07-13-07, 01:15 AM I think it works for spontaneous spellcasters as well.

Say if a sorc has heighten spell and acid splash, he will always have an acid spell of the highest lv available for fueling the effects of acid splatter. This means that even though he may not know of any acid spells of his highest lv, he can effectively use heighten spell to meet the requirements of all his different reserve feat.

For example, say I am a lv14 sorc who took limited wish as my 7th lv spell known. With heighten spell, I am capable of casting acid splash as a 7th lv spell, can cast burning hands as a 7th lv fire spell, can cast ray of frost as a 7th lv cold spell, can cast summon monster1 as a 7th lv summon spell etc....:)

And all my reserve feats would be augmented accordingly, so as I have at least 1 7th lv slot to fuel all of them.

No I don't believe so. Because the spell in your memory (free slot) does not change descriptor until you cast the spell as a spontaneous caster. This is the same for adding other metamagic. It clearly says you add the metamagic when a spell is cast. It is not taking up a slot in your memory of higher level.

This means that you don't qualify to use reserve feats this way.

For example: 5th level sorceror has fireball spell and energy substitution (acid). He also has acidic splatter.

Fireball as a known spell is (fire) descriptor. If he uses fireball it is a (fire) spell. Now at the moment he is casting, he can use energy substitution (metamagic) to alter the the descriptor from (fire) to (acid). It is never known as an (acid) spell though.

Reserved feats only work on what you have memorized or known. Metamagic is added when a spell is cast (during the casting to alter it), so no metamagic is actually altering a known spell for a sorceror. That means it doesn't work that way for them.

However, their bonus is if they have monster summoning III, and fireball as known 3rd level spells, and have 1 open 3rd level slot, they could use both Summon Elemental and Fiery Blast both at full 3rd level power, until they burn that 1 slot.

EDIT: Limited Wish wouldn't qualify for any of those feats either, btw.
runestar
07-13-07, 03:13 AM Hmm...it would appear that you are right. Bother - sorcs get screwed again.:(
DarkPawn
07-13-07, 07:17 AM Hmm...it would appear that you are right. Bother - sorcs get screwed again.:(

Yeah a little bit, but the fact that you can know a dimension door, cone of cold, and monster summoning IV, and use dimension jaunt, winter's blast, and summon elemental all with 1, 4th level slot open.

The wizard would actually have to memorize all three and if they only had 1 slot open, could only at most have 1 of those memorized.

The only way a wizard can get around this handicap is to find spells that fit for multiple reserve feats. One that I did find for my build was the 6th level spell, Flame Spiders. Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire], so can use it for full strength acidic splatter and summon elemental. I'll have to use energy substitution to memorize it as Acid Spiders though. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Painlord 07-11-07, 05:54 PM	Forgive my Nooberness-- Outside of whether it's a good idea, can my Cleric attain and use the Fiery Burst reserve feat from CM? I think I can get access to a fire spell through the Sun Domain (heat metal at lvl 2?) or thru Flame Strike (level 5 spell). Would either of those work? And, secondly, is it just too silly/underpowered to even consider? The cleric I'm thinking about creating may like to burn things. And stay out of combat. Surely you can think of a fiery angry god that would appreciate his cleric charring the freak out of bad/good guys, right? -PainLord
zorgling25 07-11-07, 06:07 PM	Forgive my Nooberness-- Outside of whether it's a good idea, can my Cleric attain and use the Fiery Burst reserve feat from CM? The cleric I'm thinking about creating may like to burn things. And stay out of combat. Surely you can think of a fiery angry god that would appreciate his cleric charring the freak out of bad/good guys, right? -PainLord Technically there's nothing in the rule I can see barring this. Fiery burst is a good feat. However, I would reevaluate what you're trying to do before you jump into cleric. The kind of character you are describing seems to fit the bill of an arcane blaster more than a cleric by a LONG shot. Mechanically, it might work, but I would think of the roleplaying behind it, as a pyromaniacal mage seems more likely than a cleric.
Painlord 07-11-07, 06:33 PM	Yar. I appreciate your tact, zorgling25. Have you met Joramy (goddess of fire, volcanoes, wrath, anger and quarrels)? Or mayhaps Kossuth? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12944109 ... "The Firelord", "Lord of Flames, purification through fire) In your humble opinion, it does work with the rules, but is tacky and I need to properly work it into my deity? This, I must ponder. I appreciate your thoughts. At this time, I don't know why my god wouldn't want me burning heathens (bring them to the 'light' of Kossuth) if I could. Ah...let me ponder my relationship with the elements. -Painlord
Hsien 07-12-07, 09:06 AM	The Heat Mizer's says... "Burn them!!!! Burn them for the glory of the Eternal Flame and bring forth the Drak Pra. Burn them for Kossuth, Agni, or whatever god of fire you follow. Thier bodies will be blessed by fire, and you shall see the impurities leave the spirit in the form of the smoke that lifts from their forms ( rant cont...)" Ok, sorry...I've always had fun playing The Heat Mizer, in various versions for 10+ years now. Yes you can take that feat, it's not spectacular, but it can fill a nice niche if your often in dungeon settings, with it's smaller AoE. Plus as long as you have a fire spell memorized, even a domain spell, you can access it. It's been my experience that Reserve feats really depend more on the type of campaign and group make up to determine if they are worthwhile; but then I think that's true about a lot of feats and skills.
RobbyPants 07-12-07, 11:27 AM	Outside of whether it's a good idea, can my Cleric attain and use the Fiery Burst reserve feat from CM? As others have said, yes it does work. And, secondly, is it just too silly/underpowered to even consider? As to whether or not it's a good idea: it depends on the game and the level. From my experience, it looks like reserve feats like Firey Burst give you the best result at low levels. For instance, at level 3, you will do 2d6 damage with your burst, as compared to about 3d6 damage with a spell. Being able to do 2d6 damage over and over while reserving 3d6 damage is quite nice. At higher levels, you can do insane amounts of damage with your 9th level spells. The feat only gives you 9d6 damage. At this point, the 9d6 is almost useless, except against a few weaker foes. I only say this in that you should expect to get the most milage out of this feat at your lower levels. Also, if you can't come up with any good fire spells to reseve at other levels, this feat will become pretty weak. You will probably want to have a fire spell available as the highest level spell you can cast.
DarkPawn 07-12-07, 11:41 AM	My current wizard is using acidic splatter and summon elemental. I took energy substitution (acid) so I can have a memorized acid spell of my highest level. At 9th level I can cast a cold of cold that would do 9d6, reflex for half. Or I can hold onto it and do 5d6 each round on a ranged touch attack, no save. Reserve feats aren't subject to Spell Resistance either. That is a huge plus that I've noticed. The Summon Elemental would fit your character concept too. Well at least if you only summon fire elementals. The nice thing is you can use them for checking for traps, fodder, blocker, flanker, and many other interesting uses. Water elemental to put out a fire. Air elemental to disperse a swarm. I think this feat is highly underrated.
Meep326 07-12-07, 12:00 PM	As to whether or not it's a good idea: it depends on the game and the level. From my experience, it looks like reserve feats like Firey Burst give you the best result at low levels. For instance, at level 3, you will do 2d6 damage with your burst, as compared to about 3d6 damage with a spell. Being able to do 2d6 damage over and over while reserving 3d6 damage is quite nice. At higher levels, you can do insane amounts of damage with your 9th level spells. The feat only gives you 9d6 damage. At this point, the 9d6 is almost useless, except against a few weaker foes. Right, the only real reserve feats I see as being usefull at higher levels are Dimensional Reach and Dimensional Jaunt (mainly for can-trip like stuff). Just the fact that I can teleport myself or small items around at will just seems fun.
Painlord 07-12-07, 02:22 PM	Thanks for all the responses. You party peeps have knowledge and experience that I hope that I can one day share with others, but I still learn. Stupid Reality. I have to learn. Anyhoot, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can retrain out of this feat when I get to a higher level? I pay some amount of gold and upgrade? But that's probably considered to be tacky, yes? -Painlord p.s. I think I currently struggle between my desire to optomize vs. my desire NOT to be too tacky.
DarkPawn 07-12-07, 02:35 PM	Thanks for all the responses. You party peeps have knowledge and experience that I hope that I can one day share with others, but I still learn. Stupid Reality. I have to learn. Anyhoot, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can retrain out of this feat when I get to a higher level? I pay some amount of gold and upgrade? But that's probably considered to be tacky, yes? -Painlord p.s. I think I currently struggle between my desire to optomize vs. my desire NOT to be too tacky. I believe the PHB II has options for such a thing. I really don't agree though with the people saying they are only useful low level. 9d6 damage isn't a ton compared to a 9th level spell. But it is 9d6 as many times as you want. Basically like a natural attack (supernatural actually). Over the course of an adventure, in between resting for spells, you can really add up the damage. Keep in mind that it blasts through Spell Resistance. That is pretty huge even at epic level. The elements get stronger from summon elemental. They will never be stronger then large, but unlimited large elementals (air,earth,water, fire) is nothing to sneeze at. If anything they are instant summoned blockers or flankers. There are a ton more uses for summon elemental, and many of the other feats hold value into epic level campaigns. My opinion, but I honesty think it is far more useful then most think.
RobbyPants 07-12-07, 02:51 PM	Keep in mind that it blasts through Spell Resistance. That is pretty huge even at epic level. I forgot about that. That certainly is a useful feature.
DarkPawn 07-12-07, 04:08 PM	I forgot about that. That certainly is a useful feature. My DM has also forgot about that at times, much to his chagrin. ;)
kyros_the_spawnslayer 07-12-07, 07:12 PM	My current wizard is using acidic splatter and summon elemental. I took energy substitution (acid) so I can have a memorized acid spell of my highest level. Can you do that? I Always thought reserve feats feed off actual non-modded spells
DarkPawn 07-12-07, 11:18 PM	Can you do that? I Always thought reserve feats feed off actual non-modded spells Yes you can do that. If you memorizes spells, not if you spontaneously cast them. It keys off school, subschool, and/or descriptor. In the case of someone who prepares spells ahead of time, adding energy substitution actually changes the descriptor. It is in your memory as an acid descriptor spell. You can't for example alter a fireball into acid descriptor, then change it back after you memorized it or when you cast it. It therefore qualifies for an acid spell for the reserve feat acidic splatter.
runestar 07-12-07, 11:28 PM	Yes you can do that. If you memorizes spells, not if you spontaneously cast them. I think it works for spontaneous spellcasters as well. Say if a sorc has heighten spell and acid splash, he will always have an acid spell of the highest lv available for fueling the effects of acid splatter. This means that even though he may not know of any acid spells of his highest lv, he can effectively use heighten spell to meet the requirements of all his different reserve feat. For example, say I am a lv14 sorc who took limited wish as my 7th lv spell known. With heighten spell, I am capable of casting acid splash as a 7th lv spell, can cast burning hands as a 7th lv fire spell, can cast ray of frost as a 7th lv cold spell, can cast summon monster1 as a 7th lv summon spell etc....:) And all my reserve feats would be augmented accordingly, so as I have at least 1 7th lv slot to fuel all of them.
DarkPawn 07-13-07, 01:15 AM	I think it works for spontaneous spellcasters as well. Say if a sorc has heighten spell and acid splash, he will always have an acid spell of the highest lv available for fueling the effects of acid splatter. This means that even though he may not know of any acid spells of his highest lv, he can effectively use heighten spell to meet the requirements of all his different reserve feat. For example, say I am a lv14 sorc who took limited wish as my 7th lv spell known. With heighten spell, I am capable of casting acid splash as a 7th lv spell, can cast burning hands as a 7th lv fire spell, can cast ray of frost as a 7th lv cold spell, can cast summon monster1 as a 7th lv summon spell etc....:) And all my reserve feats would be augmented accordingly, so as I have at least 1 7th lv slot to fuel all of them. No I don't believe so. Because the spell in your memory (free slot) does not change descriptor until you cast the spell as a spontaneous caster. This is the same for adding other metamagic. It clearly says you add the metamagic when a spell is cast. It is not taking up a slot in your memory of higher level. This means that you don't qualify to use reserve feats this way. For example: 5th level sorceror has fireball spell and energy substitution (acid). He also has acidic splatter. Fireball as a known spell is (fire) descriptor. If he uses fireball it is a (fire) spell. Now at the moment he is casting, he can use energy substitution (metamagic) to alter the the descriptor from (fire) to (acid). It is never known as an (acid) spell though. Reserved feats only work on what you have memorized or known. Metamagic is added when a spell is cast (during the casting to alter it), so no metamagic is actually altering a known spell for a sorceror. That means it doesn't work that way for them. However, their bonus is if they have monster summoning III, and fireball as known 3rd level spells, and have 1 open 3rd level slot, they could use both Summon Elemental and Fiery Blast both at full 3rd level power, until they burn that 1 slot. EDIT: Limited Wish wouldn't qualify for any of those feats either, btw.
runestar 07-13-07, 03:13 AM	Hmm...it would appear that you are right. Bother - sorcs get screwed again.:(
DarkPawn 07-13-07, 07:17 AM	Hmm...it would appear that you are right. Bother - sorcs get screwed again.:( Yeah a little bit, but the fact that you can know a dimension door, cone of cold, and monster summoning IV, and use dimension jaunt, winter's blast, and summon elemental all with 1, 4th level slot open. The wizard would actually have to memorize all three and if they only had 1 slot open, could only at most have 1 of those memorized. The only way a wizard can get around this handicap is to find spells that fit for multiple reserve feats. One that I did find for my build was the 6th level spell, Flame Spiders. Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire], so can use it for full strength acidic splatter and summon elemental. I'll have to use energy substitution to memorize it as Acid Spiders though. ;)