Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MogliGrimTooth 08-06-07, 10:00 PM	Is There a feat that allows fighters to use wands without having to take a dip level to a class that can.... Thanks MGT
InkBlot 08-06-07, 10:18 PM	Yes, there are several. Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Magical Aptitude, and Magic Device Attunement. First off, don't dump Charisma. Put at least a 10 in there. The DC to use a wand with Use Magic Device is 20. Skill Focus gives you a +3, and Magical Aptitude gives you another +2, for a total of +5. Keep your ranks maxed out, and you can activate a wand on an average roll by level 7 (earlier if you have a higher Charisma). Now for the kicker. Magic Device Attunement allows you to activate a magic item freely, so long as you successfully activated it once before in the same day. It only works with one wand (or other device) at a time, but you can switch which device you have attuned with a free action and a successful UMD check. And the prerequisites for Magic Device Attunement are so trivial that even a 1st level fighter can meet them. Even if your UMD modifier is low, you still have a good chance to make at least one successful check. Just practice with the wand in the morning, roll a couple checks, and as long as one of them succeeds (and none are natural 1s) you can use the wand without a check for the rest of the day. After you get your UMD up to 10 or better, you can stop wasting charges by practicing in the morning, and simply attune the wand when you first use it in an encounter that day. Magic Device Attunement is from Complete Mage.
runestar 08-06-07, 10:23 PM	Take the arcane schooling regional feat from PGTF. It lets you use spell trigger items as though you had 1 lv in wiz, sorc or bard.:)
InkBlot 08-06-07, 10:35 PM	PGTF? Praise God 'Tis Friday? Why don't you want to multiclass? D&D characters have no concept of classes as we know them. From your fighter's perspective, all he's doing is training to learn to use a little magic. It cuts into his sword practice time, but that's what he wanted to do. Also, have you considered the idea of dipping into Ranger to get wand access? Even 1st level Rangers are members of a spellcasting class, even if they have no spell slots, and so can use wands of any spell on the Ranger spell list. The same trick works for Paladins. There's also the Psychic Warrior class. They only have 3/4 BAB, but the first level will get you a psychic power, the psionic subtype, the ability to use dorjes (http://drilbudorje.tripod.com/_Dorje.htm) (psionic wands), and a bonus Fighter or Psionic feat. Let me put it this way - a Fighter 3/Psychic Warrior 1 can have four Fighter feats. Psionics aren't broken so long as you don't break the rules: 1. You can't spend more power points than your manifester level 2. You can only expend psionic focus for one thing at a time For more info, click here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=486266)
MogliGrimTooth 08-06-07, 10:47 PM	PGTF? Praise God 'Tis Friday? Why don't you want to multiclass? D&D characters have no concept of classes as we know them. From your fighter's perspective, all he's doing is training to learn to use a little magic. It cuts into his sword practice time, but that's what he wanted to do. Also, have you considered the idea of dipping into Ranger to get wand access? Even 1st level Rangers are members of a spellcasting class, even if they have no spell slots, and so can use wands of any spell on the Ranger spell list. The same trick works for Paladins. There's also the Psychic Warrior class. They only have 3/4 BAB, but the first level will get you a psychic power, the psionic subtype, the ability to use dorjes (http://drilbudorje.tripod.com/_Dorje.htm) (psionic wands), and a bonus Fighter or Psionic feat. Let me put it this way - a Fighter 3/Psychic Warrior 1 can have four Fighter feats. Psionics aren't broken so long as you don't break the rules: 1. You can't spend more power points than your manifester level 2. You can only expend psionic focus for one thing at a time For more info, click here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=486266) Its for a fighter based homebrew class that is not allowed to multi class.....
Salla 08-06-07, 10:50 PM	Its for a fighter based homebrew class that is not allowed to multi class..... Excuse me for a moment. http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/WTF.jpg Even the Paladin and Monk can multiclass, even if they can't go back. What kind of bull**** is that?!
MogliGrimTooth 08-06-07, 10:56 PM	Excuse me for a moment. http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/WTF.jpg Even the Paladin and Monk can multiclass, even if they can't go back. What kind of bull**** is that?! As I said it is a homebrew class That we use. Due to possible abuse if used with mutli classing it is not allowed to do so. It is not used instead of the Fighter class so if a plyer finds the no multi class rule to restrictive then they just dont take the Homebrew class. Simple.... PRCs are allowed on DM approval so there is some give there. So you may think its bull**** but we like it. Thanks MGT
tarkin 08-07-07, 11:45 AM	If I were your DM and the class was so dangerous that it can not mult-class, I would be VERY hesitant about allowing it to use wands. Wands are in effect a way to duplicate the low end powers of a spellcaster. If multi-classing is a problem and must be house rule outlawed, then using wands should ALSO be a problem and should likely be house rule outlawed. In my experience, I have never found a class (or even a prestige class) that was: a. Acceptable by itself. b. not acceptable if it multi-classes. I strongly suspect you are using a prestige class that IS abusive even if you don't multi-class. I think the reason you like it but have not found it abusive is because you have carefully avoided displaying the full power to the DM. Hence you like it because it is clearly more powerfull than you have let the DM figure out.
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 12:33 PM	Any chance you could post this "it can't multiclass" class for us to see?
MogliGrimTooth 08-07-07, 04:28 PM	If I were your DM and the class was so dangerous that it can not mult-class, I would be VERY hesitant about allowing it to use wands. Wands are in effect a way to duplicate the low end powers of a spellcaster. If multi-classing is a problem and must be house rule outlawed, then using wands should ALSO be a problem and should likely be house rule outlawed. In my experience, I have never found a class (or even a prestige class) that was: a. Acceptable by itself. b. not acceptable if it multi-classes. I strongly suspect you are using a prestige class that IS abusive even if you don't multi-class. I think the reason you like it but have not found it abusive is because you have carefully avoided displaying the full power to the DM. Hence you like it because it is clearly more powerfull than you have let the DM figure out. Sigh..... Im not interested in your opinion of the class, weither your think it should be allowed or not.... I can assure you these issues have been addressed. Our group has agreed that it is balanced and works well within our game and campaign. So thank you for your concern, but it is not what im asking about. Sorry if that sounded harsh. Thank you Mgt.
MogliGrimTooth 08-07-07, 04:59 PM	Any chance you could post this "it can't multiclass" class for us to see? Sure here it is, though im not sure it will get a positive response, if you are actually interested and dont just want to shot holes in it. Though with that said, I am also interested in any genuine ideas you have about it. Myself my DM and all PC's in our party have agreed to allow it for use in our Campaign. Which I will be DMing and one of my friends will be using the class to play test in a full 1st-20th level campaign. The pure Warrior Starts at first level with No Armour, Weapon, or shiled profincies Unmodified HD d10 Unmodified Skills 2 per level + int The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride,Sense Motive, Spot, Swim Instead of the 6 preset feats a fighter gains ( 1light armor, 2medium armor, 3heavy amror, 4shields, 5tower shileds, 6martial weapons) They get none of these abilities but instead get 6 feats to spend as they choose from the fighter feat and bonus feats list. plus thier 1st level and bonus 1st level feat. Giving a total of 8 1st level feats. (This is the main reason the Pure fighter can not multi class as while this is not broken, it would become so if it could be used as a dip class) It means that the fighter has access to more feats, without actually giving them more feats. We have also given the fighter extra feats so there are no dead levels. Though it is still to be decided how this will be balanced at this time. So the table below is possibly going to change, based on further play testing... Interchangable Feats. A Pure warrior may spend 1 feat a first level to increase his HD to d12 or gain 1 feat and reduce thier hd to d8 Also A Pure Warrior can spend 1 feat at first level to increase his skill per level points by 2. The Pure Warrior 1st------+1----------------+2-------+0-------+0------ Bonus feat 2nd------+2----------------+3------ +0-------+0------Bonus feat 3rd------+3----------------+3-------+1-------+1 4th------+4----------------+4-------+1-------+1------Bonus feat 5th------+5----------------+4-------+1-------+1------Bonus feat 6th------+6/+1------------ +5-------+2-------+2 7th------+7/+2-------------+5-------+2-------+2------Bonus feat 8th------+8/+3-------------+6-------+2-------+2------Bonus feat 9th------+9/+4-------------+6-------+3-------+3 10th-----+10/+5------------+7-------+3-------+3------Bonus feat 11th-----+11/+6/+1--------+7-------+3-------+3 12th-----+12/+7/+2--------+8-------+4-------+4-------Bonus feat 13th-----+13/+8/+3--------+8-------+4-------+4 14th-----+14/+9/+4--------+9-------+4-------+4------ Bonus feat 15th-----+15/+10/+5-------+9-------+5-------+5 16th-----+16/+11/+6/+1----+10------+5------+5-------Bonus feat 17th-----+17/+12/+7/+2---+10-------+5------+5 18th-----+18/+13/+8/+3----+11------+6------+6-------Bonus feat 19th-----+19/+14/+9/+4----+11------+6------+6 20th-----+20/+15/+10/+5---+12------+6------+6------ Bonus feat Thanks MGT.
Cindre2000 08-07-07, 05:18 PM	Well the bonus feat at 6th level is pointless, it is not a 'dead' level. The main problem with that class is that it makes the fighter more powerful at low levels and not much more powerful at higher levels- where it counts. I would personally work on scaling it a bit more. However, as for multiclassing- just have your dm instate the following rule: Only the bonus feats given at 1st,3rd,6th,9th,12th,15th,18th may be counted towards PrC requirements. Oh, and you could probably say that you can spend one of those 2st level feats on increasing a single poor save to good. Or you he/she can just figure out the lowest level a 'normal' class could get in and put a level prerequisite on each class. There is absolutely no reason you should not be allowed to multiclass as a rogue. (unless your DM does not want you using wands)
InkBlot 08-07-07, 05:19 PM	1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat Sorry. Just a little obsessive about these things. Hope this helps anyway. Click "quote" to see how it's done. Just remember, the tab key is for tables.
MogliGrimTooth 08-07-07, 05:25 PM	Sorry. Just a little obsessive about these things. Hope this helps anyway. Click "quote" to see how it's done. Just remember, the tab key is for tables. Yeah for some reason my Tab key does not work on these forums? Random i know..... Oh edited 6th level, your right not a dead level.... We thought about giving the option of increasing saves as well, but have yet to make a decision on this. Were thinking- Spend 1 feat to increase 1 save tree to +9 or spend 2 feats to increase it to +12 So you could spend a total of 4 feats to get all saves at +12 But we can not decide if 4 feats is enough of a cost.... Or if we should just limit it to only only one save type. So you can only increase one save tree...... So as yet we have not included it.... MGT.
InkBlot 08-07-07, 06:19 PM	Most of web browsers use the Tab key to switch focus between different text fields (like the address bar, the search bar, and the quick reply box). If you open a plain text editor, it'll work fine.
IMarvinTPA 08-09-07, 12:00 PM	Myself my DM and all PC's in our party have agreed to allow it for use in our Campaign. Which I will be DMing and one of my friends will be using the class to play test in a full 1st-20th level campaign. The pure Warrior Starts at first level with No Armour, Weapon, or shiled profincies Unmodified HD d10 Unmodified Skills 2 per level + int The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride,Sense Motive, Spot, Swim Instead of the 6 preset feats a fighter gains ( 1light armor, 2medium armor, 3heavy amror, 4shields, 5tower shileds, 6martial weapons) They get none of these abilities but instead get 6 feats to spend as they choose, plus thier 1st level and bonus 1st level feat. Giving a total of 8 1st level feats. (This is the main reason the Pure fighter can not multi class as while this is not broken, it would become so if it could be used as a dip class) It means that the fighter has access to more feats, without actually giving them more feats. I would think that those 6 feats would have to be spent either on normal fighter starting feats or fighter bonus feats to limit the cross-class abuse it could cause. Otherwise, I think it is an interesting variation. IMarv
MogliGrimTooth 08-15-07, 06:49 PM	I would think that those 6 feats would have to be spent either on normal fighter starting feats or fighter bonus feats to limit the cross-class abuse it could cause. Otherwise, I think it is an interesting variation. IMarv Darn it i forgot to put that in.. same thing was mentioned last time but if forgot to add it. Will edit it to reflect this. Thanks MGT
Jaxgaret 08-15-07, 07:06 PM	Were thinking- Spend 1 feat to increase 1 save tree to +9 or spend 2 feats to increase it to +12 So you could spend a total of 4 feats to get all saves at +12 But we can not decide if 4 feats is enough of a cost.... Or if we should just limit it to only only one save type. So you can only increase one save tree...... So as yet we have not included it.... That seems just fine. The PHB save bonus feats (Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will) give you a +2 to their respective saves. Your save bonus feats will start off at +1 until 8th/10th level where they will increase to +2, and then to +3 at 14th/16th level. So the two feats are essentially balanced to each other. One provides a bigger bonus immediately, while the other one pays off more later. On the class itself: It still suffers from the same problems of the Fighter class, but provides for a lot more flexibility of design and customization. I like the idea - it could use a bit of work, but it's definitely a good direction to be going in.
MogliGrimTooth 08-15-07, 07:25 PM	That seems just fine. The PHB save bonus feats (Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will) give you a +2 to their respective saves. Your save bonus feats will start off at +1 until 8th/10th level where they will increase to +2, and then to +3 at 14th/16th level. So the two feats are essentially balanced to each other. One provides a bigger bonus immediately, while the other one pays off more later. On the class itself: It still suffers from the same problems of the Fighter class, but provides for a lot more flexibility of design and customization. I like the idea - it could use a bit of work, but it's definitely a good direction to be going in. I agree I wanted to make it not so much about giving more power to the fighter but more options, which is the essence of the fighter class. And not wanting to start a flame war, I dont think fighters need any more power as such, just more options. I think fighters are about giving the party options, durability and consistant output of power.... Sure high level casters can paste them but thats why the party has thier own casters..... Thats why we went this wasy and gave the class more feats instead o alternate abilities. Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated..... Thanks MGT.
StruckingFuggle 08-15-07, 08:13 PM	Maybe at first level, provide a feat only for the class, or a class feature, that lets them key attack to dex, str, or int, and key damage to dex, str, or int, too; so long as they're different stats, while making them take damage penalties for negative str regardless of stat?
MogliGrimTooth 08-15-07, 10:36 PM	Maybe at first level, provide a feat only for the class, or a class feature, that lets them key attack to dex, str, or int, and key damage to dex, str, or int, too; so long as they're different stats, while making them take damage penalties for negative str regardless of stat? Hrmmm... interesting idea... How would you word this or set it up?
StruckingFuggle 08-15-07, 11:59 PM	Well, actually ... I'm thinking feats. Weapon finesse, and an intelligence version thereof, as well as feat-like versions of Insightful Strike, and an expanded, different version of Insightful Strike. And make 'em New Fighter Only. And maybe make it so that the feats can't be taken, have ... anti-prerequisites, so you can't take Dex-To-Damage and Insightful Strike in the same build. Maybe make it with a weapon they have weapon focus in, but make it a more generously expanded list than, say, Shadow Blade. Also, going for it, I'd import the warblade's ability to change what weapon your specific feats apply to. Ooooh. Maybe make it you get strength to damage still, but you get, say, "Graceful Strike" and "Cunning Strike", and it adds either dex or int to damage for weapons you have weapon focus in ... but it's 'precision' damage, negated when someone would be immune to sneak attack?
MogliGrimTooth 08-16-07, 12:22 AM	Well, actually ... I'm thinking feats. Weapon finesse, and an intelligence version thereof, as well as feat-like versions of Insightful Strike, and an expanded, different version of Insightful Strike. And make 'em New Fighter Only. And maybe make it so that the feats can't be taken, have ... anti-prerequisites, so you can't take Dex-To-Damage and Insightful Strike in the same build. Maybe make it with a weapon they have weapon focus in, but make it a more generously expanded list than, say, Shadow Blade. Also, going for it, I'd import the warblade's ability to change what weapon your specific feats apply to. Ooooh. Maybe make it you get strength to damage still, but you get, say, "Graceful Strike" and "Cunning Strike", and it adds either dex or int to damage for weapons you have weapon focus in ... but it's 'precision' damage, negated when someone would be immune to sneak attack? somthing like this? Graceful Blade Req Fighter only Dex 14 Weapon finesse applied to light weapons only You may apply your Dex bonus to damage Dex
JulesCARV 08-16-07, 12:29 AM	Ultimately, it will probably be more efficient to take skill knowledge (use magic device) to turn UMD into a class skill than to take skill focus or magical aptitude. The funny thing is, the most powerful classes don't have any multiclassing restrictions. The classes that have multiclassing restrictions are kinda weak.
MogliGrimTooth 08-16-07, 12:56 AM	Ultimately, it will probably be more efficient to take skill knowledge (use magic device) to turn UMD into a class skill than to take skill focus or magical aptitude. The funny thing is, the most powerful classes don't have any multiclassing restrictions. The classes that have multiclassing restrictions are kinda weak. yeah we are only currently restricting multi classing untill it is fully play tested. If it turns out we can find a way to make it able to multi class then we will. At this stage we believe having that many feats available is to easy to abuse. If you have any ideas as to how this could be resolved they would be appreciated.
Roog 08-16-07, 06:40 AM	Giving a total of 8 1st level feats. (This is the main reason the Pure fighter can not multi class as while this is not broken, it would become so if it could be used as a dip class) So you can't dip into it - so how about asking your GM about dipping out of it. Alternatively how about taking Human Paragon class. It's effectively a prestige class with race as its only requirement. It has a class feature at first level (Adaptive Learning) that effectively allows you to make any one skill a class skill for all the character's classes.
Cindre2000 08-16-07, 12:38 PM	All you have to do is have the DM put an minimum level requirement you need to enter the PrC you want to get. He would look at the PrC and if you are able to enter it inordinately early, he says: "You are required to be X level before you enter this PrC." Really simple.
MogliGrimTooth 08-16-07, 05:06 PM	All you have to do is have the DM put an minimum level requirement you need to enter the PrC you want to get. He would look at the PrC and if you are able to enter it inordinately early, he says: "You are required to be X level before you enter this PrC." Really simple. Im are not saying you can never multi class or use PRc's That rule is in place until we decide if its to abusable or if a blance can be found. I have been looking at it and think you may be right. Its more to stop people dipping into the Class more than anything. I dont think allowing the class to use Prcs or multi class after a certian point would be over powered. I mean would a Pure Warrior10/rogue10 really be overpowered compared to a full druid, mage or cleric......???? Thanks MGT.
JulesCARV 08-16-07, 06:19 PM	Overall, the big issue is that, even more than a regular fighter, this class has everything worthwhile in the first eight levels, and not much after that. The rational decision for a player, then, is to take about eight levels, and then move into something else. To avoid that, you put in a restriction on multiclassing. Wouldn't it be better to simply put more of the classes power near the end? For example, keep the fighter bonus feat structure normal at early levels, then have them get a bonus feat at every level from 10 to 20?
MogliGrimTooth 08-16-07, 06:44 PM	Overall, the big issue is that, even more than a regular fighter, this class has everything worthwhile in the first eight levels, and not much after that. The rational decision for a player, then, is to take about eight levels, and then move into something else. To avoid that, you put in a restriction on multiclassing. Wouldn't it be better to simply put more of the classes power near the end? For example, keep the fighter bonus feat structure normal at early levels, then have them get a bonus feat at every level from 10 to 20? I agree this would be better. The only thing is to stop it being abusable and spreading the feats over all 20 levels they would have basically no feats at 1st level. how would you set up the first few levels?
Nom 08-16-07, 11:23 PM	I agree this would be better. The only thing is to stop it being abusable and spreading the feats over all 20 levels they would have basically no feats at 1st level. how would you set up the first few levels?First, stop assuming that the default proficiencies are worth 6 feats. This is where a lot of your "multiclass" problems come from. Heavy armour / martial weapons / shields should be seen as "nominal", and taking away from this benchline is a way of restricting or channeling class abilities. Similarly, these abilities are "cheap" because almost every class gets some of them, and thus multiclassing overlaps. Just as it's silly to allow a fighter who multiclasses into rogue (or vice versa) to claim 2+ new feats because of "overlap" (simple weapons, light armour, various martial weapons) with the rogue weapon abilities, it's silly to allow a fighter to trade these abilities 1:1 with feats. It's probably not unreasonable to trade tower shield proficiency and armour proficiency above light for an extra feat, (to be taken at 3rd, 5th, or later), or maybe even two if your DM is a softie, but trading them for 6 is just silly, and top-loading the class in return is more-so. Extra abilities are supposed to be acquired gradually (rate of acquisition of martial vs spellcasting characters we'll leave for another discussion) as the character progresses; your variant gives the "pure fighter" a broad range of abilities right from the word go.
MogliGrimTooth 08-18-07, 08:33 PM	First, stop assuming that the default proficiencies are worth 6 feats. This is where a lot of your "multiclass" problems come from. Heavy armour / martial weapons / shields should be seen as "nominal", and taking away from this benchline is a way of restricting or channeling class abilities. Similarly, these abilities are "cheap" because almost every class gets some of them, and thus multiclassing overlaps. Just as it's silly to allow a fighter who multiclasses into rogue (or vice versa) to claim 2+ new feats because of "overlap" (simple weapons, light armour, various martial weapons) with the rogue weapon abilities, it's silly to allow a fighter to trade these abilities 1:1 with feats. It's probably not unreasonable to trade tower shield proficiency and armour proficiency above light for an extra feat, (to be taken at 3rd, 5th, or later), or maybe even two if your DM is a softie, but trading them for 6 is just silly, and top-loading the class in return is more-so. Extra abilities are supposed to be acquired gradually (rate of acquisition of martial vs spellcasting characters we'll leave for another discussion) as the character progresses; your variant gives the "pure fighter" a broad range of abilities right from the word go. ok fine... some good points. So how would you alter what ive suggested to make it better. Also would you consider 6 feats to be more powerful than the Broad range of abilities a Cleric gets from lvl1? Anyway, We are pretty much set on trying this out so if you have any suggestions as to how to improve the idea they will be welcome. Thanks for you ideas though, you have given me more things to think on. and thats what its all about.... thanks MGT
Nom 08-19-07, 07:56 AM	ok fine... some good points. So how would you alter what ive suggested to make it better.The only way I'd grant a bonus feat for ditching armour + shield proficiency is if you lost access to the feat if you wore any armour or shield (like monk specials). I might be willing to allow the same for ditching martial weapon profs, but that's more awkward to enforce. In any case, I'd only give one feat at first, and others should fill later empty levels. Also would you consider 6 feats to be more powerful than the Broad range of abilities a Cleric gets from lvl1?At level 1, at least double. A cleric who tries to out-fighter a fighter can just barely keep up until about 7 or 8th level, but then he's using all his magic to make up the difference and thus has little or nothing left for more useful cleric abilities. Things start to become problematic after this due to divine power, righteous might, and that the cleric is gaining exponential resource growth (more spells, and more powerful spells) while the fighter is merely getting linear growth (more feats). It's tempting to simply fill the fighter blank levels with more feats (either fighter feats or specific feats), but that merely powers up the fighter vs the barbarian, ranger and paladin without dealing with the fundamental problem of exponential power growth and flexibility in spellcasters. The problem is not merely that a cleric can give a fighter a run for his money, but that at higher levels the cleric has a bunch of resources left over to do other stuff as well.
MogliGrimTooth 08-20-07, 06:06 PM	The only way I'd grant a bonus feat for ditching armour + shield proficiency is if you lost access to the feat if you wore any armour or shield (like monk specials). I might be willing to allow the same for ditching martial weapon profs, but that's more awkward to enforce. In any case, I'd only give one feat at first, and others should fill later empty levels. At level 1, at least double. A cleric who tries to out-fighter a fighter can just barely keep up until about 7 or 8th level, but then he's using all his magic to make up the difference and thus has little or nothing left for more useful cleric abilities. Things start to become problematic after this due to divine power, righteous might, and that the cleric is gaining exponential resource growth (more spells, and more powerful spells) while the fighter is merely getting linear growth (more feats). It's tempting to simply fill the fighter blank levels with more feats (either fighter feats or specific feats), but that merely powers up the fighter vs the barbarian, ranger and paladin without dealing with the fundamental problem of exponential power growth and flexibility in spellcasters. The problem is not merely that a cleric can give a fighter a run for his money, but that at higher levels the cleric has a bunch of resources left over to do other stuff as well. Hrm.... again some things to think on here, but it dosnt really help me move forward at this stage so i think I will leave it as is and play test it and see what happens....... Well Ill have someone else play test it anyway..... Thanks though MGT.
tvar1 08-20-07, 07:01 PM	Six feats at first level isn't really that powerful for this class. What feats is he going to take?? I can pretty much guarantee that some are going to go into weapon and armor proficiency unless the guy wants to completely gimp himself. Even then, imagine a fighter in light armor with simple weapon proficiency and a few extra feats going up against a cleric in heavy armor, a shield, the same weapons, plus spells. Doesn't sound that unbalancing. The fact that this doesn't balance Fighter vs Wizard is not a shortcoming of this idea. To fix that you need to rebuild the system from the ground up. Let's see how 4th edition does... Overall, I think MGTs fix is a very promising one. I'd be interested to hear how it turns out.
MogliGrimTooth 08-21-07, 02:45 AM	Six feats at first level isn't really that powerful for this class. What feats is he going to take?? I can pretty much guarantee that some are going to go into weapon and armor proficiency unless the guy wants to completely gimp himself. Even then, imagine a fighter in light armor with simple weapon proficiency and a few extra feats going up against a cleric in heavy armor, a shield, the same weapons, plus spells. Doesn't sound that unbalancing. The fact that this doesn't balance Fighter vs Wizard is not a shortcoming of this idea. To fix that you need to rebuild the system from the ground up. Let's see how 4th edition does... Overall, I think MGTs fix is a very promising one. I'd be interested to hear how it turns out. Thank you, I will be sure to post as it plays out to let everyone know how it goes, for the few that may be interested. Overall im happy with the class, the only real issue is how to overcome the mutli-classing issue. Though it maybe that once its play tested it might not be that overpowered. Only time will, numbers on paper often dont reflect how the game really plays out. Thanks MGT.