Fighters demand equal rights! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fighters demand equal rights! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rinian2
08-22-07, 01:46 AM It's been bugging me for a while but why can the spells of spellcasters be Maximised and Enlarged and all that other metastuff when the weapons in the hands of weapon users don't have access to similar optimisation?

I know that both weapons and spells can benefit from range extension feats and both can get Weapon Focus but why is there no feat that will allow a weapon to do maximum damage or a feat that will increase the area of effect for a flask of acid?

I'd like some equality thanks... i mean apart from fighters getting better attack bonuses, massive amounts of feats, not being required to memorise, and more hit points fighters are very hard done by.

:D
Tempest Stormwind
08-22-07, 01:50 AM They did that. They just didn't do it through the same mechanics as maximization or empowering. Go read the Tome of Battle.
BaseDeltaZero
08-22-07, 08:12 AM Of course, there's no 'maximize technique' feat either. On a side note, I too love the tome of battle. The classes suck, but if you just rip their technique progression and stick it to a fighter, for example, it roxxors. Developing your own 'styles' is fun, too.
Knightblde
08-22-07, 08:44 AM Doesn't Power Attack fit the bill?
Kouk
08-22-07, 11:04 AM It's been bugging me for a while but why can the spells of spellcasters be Maximised and Enlarged and all that other metastuff when the weapons in the hands of weapon users don't have access to similar optimisation?

I know that both weapons and spells can benefit from range extension feats and both can get Weapon Focus but why is there no feat that will allow a weapon to do maximum damage or a feat that will increase the area of effect for a flask of acid?

I'd like some equality thanks... i mean apart from fighters getting better attack bonuses, massive amounts of feats, not being required to memorise, and more hit points fighters are very hard done by.

:D

Actually, this is an interesting idea.

Since Fighters do not have higher level spell slots to fill, you would have to have some other way to indicate something takes more effort than normal.

Just thinking off the top of my head:

Perhaps a Fighter could give up on or more of his Iterative attacks to apply a special ability to an attack. For instance, a Fighter that is allowed 3 attacks due to his BAB could sacrifice one in order to hit a second target that was adjacent to his original (Widen), or 2 attacks to ensure that his next attack did maximum damage if it hits (Maximize).

1 attack for a single attack that deals +50% damage (Empower), 1 attack for a +2 bonus on his attack roll (Heighten), 3 attacks for a single attack at highest BAB that can be made as a Swift action (Quicken), 1 attack for an extra 5ft of reach on the next melee attack (Enlarge), or 1 or 2 attacks to inflict a severe wound that causes residual damage on the next round as well (Extend).
Jaxgaret
08-22-07, 07:19 PM Take a look at Elusive Attack, Counterattack, and Overpowering Attack, from PHBII.
ToastedAmphibian
08-22-07, 07:34 PM Empower MIGHT be usefull for overcoming damage reduction, but quicken? How in the world is that helpfull? You have to take a full round action to get extra attacks. So you take a full round action to make one attack at your full base attack as a swift action?!! That amounts to a swift action that took every other action on yoru turn. Thats like using a full round action to attack with a BAB of 5, and requiering you to use yoru swift action for the round on top of it. How is there any benifit there?
ToastedAmphibian
08-22-07, 07:35 PM Oh, you might be able to work them in as skill tricks mabey?
Kaleran1277
08-22-07, 08:22 PM Hello.

I don't see the need for maximize on weapon damage rolls.
Why? Because it's only 1-2 dice, not 5+ as casters get. It just isn't worth it, except maybe on a greatsword or greataxe critical hit. The difference is just plain math, see...

Bastard Sword (1d10) goes from 1-10. 2-20 on a critical hit. The rest of the damage is bonuses from strength, magic and the like.

The fireball is (5d6) goes from 5-30 at level 5 and from 10-60 at 10th level! BIG difference there!

The base weapon damage is too small to waste on something like maximize/empower. It belongs on spells so the multiple dice can really count.
ToastedAmphibian
08-22-07, 09:21 PM Ya, like i said, the only possible use for empower is to mabey help someone (Read low str non power attacker) over come damage reduction
Rinian2
08-22-07, 09:28 PM Kaleran1277, I was just inspired by your comment to wonder why there is no Maximise Sneak Attack feat.

I'd say that the Rogue would have to sacrifice a few dice from his Sneak Attack damage but I believe that the idea is sound. (And a little scary!)
Tempest Stormwind
08-22-07, 09:53 PM This is why I said you don't need the same mechanics.

Still, let's look at it another way.

A few Tome of Battle maneuvers include:
Deal bonus damage dice (this happens in countless amounts and in different ways)
Deal double (or later, quadruple) damage
Add ability damage to the attack
Inflict a condition (like Stun) if you hit in addition to weapon damage
Instantly kill the enemy
Reroll lost attack rolls or deflect incoming enemy attacks
Bypass damage reduction
Move the enemy about
Increase likelyhood of getting to take an AoO, or shut down enemy AoO use

...Hmm. Sounds somewhat like unique mechanics for modifying what your attacks can do, both numerically (i.e. Empower Spell), non-numerically (i.e. Explosive Spell), and tactically (i.e. Delay Spell), no?
Karla
08-23-07, 06:25 AM What Tempest said. :)

And note from what they've hinted at so far, this is also essentially how 4th edition fighters (and other classes, but fighters get more of the combat ones) are going to work. You're going to have a "bag of tricks" built of a combination of at will, per encounter and per day abilities, many strongly linked to your chosen weapon(s) which will modify, empower or provide side benefits to your attacks. (In the 4E dragon-fight example recently posted, note the cleric is getting healing to an ally by hitting his opponent - exactly what a ToB Crusader can currently do with some of his maneuvers.)

I will confess though I thought the absence of maneuvers which empower or maximise attacks was a curious omission from Tome of Battle - there's plenty which add dice or linear bonuses, and a few which double or even quadruple damage, but none which give 1.5x damage or maximise. I can only surmise that they wanted to try and keep some "clear blue ether" between the maneuver and spellcasting mechanics!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rinian2 08-22-07, 01:46 AM	It's been bugging me for a while but why can the spells of spellcasters be Maximised and Enlarged and all that other metastuff when the weapons in the hands of weapon users don't have access to similar optimisation? I know that both weapons and spells can benefit from range extension feats and both can get Weapon Focus but why is there no feat that will allow a weapon to do maximum damage or a feat that will increase the area of effect for a flask of acid? I'd like some equality thanks... i mean apart from fighters getting better attack bonuses, massive amounts of feats, not being required to memorise, and more hit points fighters are very hard done by. :D
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 01:50 AM	They did that. They just didn't do it through the same mechanics as maximization or empowering. Go read the Tome of Battle.
BaseDeltaZero 08-22-07, 08:12 AM	Of course, there's no 'maximize technique' feat either. On a side note, I too love the tome of battle. The classes suck, but if you just rip their technique progression and stick it to a fighter, for example, it roxxors. Developing your own 'styles' is fun, too.
Knightblde 08-22-07, 08:44 AM	Doesn't Power Attack fit the bill?
Kouk 08-22-07, 11:04 AM	It's been bugging me for a while but why can the spells of spellcasters be Maximised and Enlarged and all that other metastuff when the weapons in the hands of weapon users don't have access to similar optimisation? I know that both weapons and spells can benefit from range extension feats and both can get Weapon Focus but why is there no feat that will allow a weapon to do maximum damage or a feat that will increase the area of effect for a flask of acid? I'd like some equality thanks... i mean apart from fighters getting better attack bonuses, massive amounts of feats, not being required to memorise, and more hit points fighters are very hard done by. :D Actually, this is an interesting idea. Since Fighters do not have higher level spell slots to fill, you would have to have some other way to indicate something takes more effort than normal. Just thinking off the top of my head: Perhaps a Fighter could give up on or more of his Iterative attacks to apply a special ability to an attack. For instance, a Fighter that is allowed 3 attacks due to his BAB could sacrifice one in order to hit a second target that was adjacent to his original (Widen), or 2 attacks to ensure that his next attack did maximum damage if it hits (Maximize). 1 attack for a single attack that deals +50% damage (Empower), 1 attack for a +2 bonus on his attack roll (Heighten), 3 attacks for a single attack at highest BAB that can be made as a Swift action (Quicken), 1 attack for an extra 5ft of reach on the next melee attack (Enlarge), or 1 or 2 attacks to inflict a severe wound that causes residual damage on the next round as well (Extend).
Jaxgaret 08-22-07, 07:19 PM	Take a look at Elusive Attack, Counterattack, and Overpowering Attack, from PHBII.
ToastedAmphibian 08-22-07, 07:34 PM	Empower MIGHT be usefull for overcoming damage reduction, but quicken? How in the world is that helpfull? You have to take a full round action to get extra attacks. So you take a full round action to make one attack at your full base attack as a swift action?!! That amounts to a swift action that took every other action on yoru turn. Thats like using a full round action to attack with a BAB of 5, and requiering you to use yoru swift action for the round on top of it. How is there any benifit there?
ToastedAmphibian 08-22-07, 07:35 PM	Oh, you might be able to work them in as skill tricks mabey?
Kaleran1277 08-22-07, 08:22 PM	Hello. I don't see the need for maximize on weapon damage rolls. Why? Because it's only 1-2 dice, not 5+ as casters get. It just isn't worth it, except maybe on a greatsword or greataxe critical hit. The difference is just plain math, see... Bastard Sword (1d10) goes from 1-10. 2-20 on a critical hit. The rest of the damage is bonuses from strength, magic and the like. The fireball is (5d6) goes from 5-30 at level 5 and from 10-60 at 10th level! BIG difference there! The base weapon damage is too small to waste on something like maximize/empower. It belongs on spells so the multiple dice can really count.
ToastedAmphibian 08-22-07, 09:21 PM	Ya, like i said, the only possible use for empower is to mabey help someone (Read low str non power attacker) over come damage reduction
Rinian2 08-22-07, 09:28 PM	Kaleran1277, I was just inspired by your comment to wonder why there is no Maximise Sneak Attack feat. I'd say that the Rogue would have to sacrifice a few dice from his Sneak Attack damage but I believe that the idea is sound. (And a little scary!)
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 09:53 PM	This is why I said you don't need the same mechanics. Still, let's look at it another way. A few Tome of Battle maneuvers include: Deal bonus damage dice (this happens in countless amounts and in different ways) Deal double (or later, quadruple) damage Add ability damage to the attack Inflict a condition (like Stun) if you hit in addition to weapon damage Instantly kill the enemy Reroll lost attack rolls or deflect incoming enemy attacks Bypass damage reduction Move the enemy about Increase likelyhood of getting to take an AoO, or shut down enemy AoO use ...Hmm. Sounds somewhat like unique mechanics for modifying what your attacks can do, both numerically (i.e. Empower Spell), non-numerically (i.e. Explosive Spell), and tactically (i.e. Delay Spell), no?
Karla 08-23-07, 06:25 AM	What Tempest said. :) And note from what they've hinted at so far, this is also essentially how 4th edition fighters (and other classes, but fighters get more of the combat ones) are going to work. You're going to have a "bag of tricks" built of a combination of at will, per encounter and per day abilities, many strongly linked to your chosen weapon(s) which will modify, empower or provide side benefits to your attacks. (In the 4E dragon-fight example recently posted, note the cleric is getting healing to an ally by hitting his opponent - exactly what a ToB Crusader can currently do with some of his maneuvers.) I will confess though I thought the absence of maneuvers which empower or maximise attacks was a curious omission from Tome of Battle - there's plenty which add dice or linear bonuses, and a few which double or even quadruple damage, but none which give 1.5x damage or maximise. I can only surmise that they wanted to try and keep some "clear blue ether" between the maneuver and spellcasting mechanics!