fighting defensive/total defense feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

fighting defensive/total defense feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
calprinicus
05-04-07, 03:38 AM Creating a build that is souly based as a tank that fights defensively. looking for anything (expecially feats) that help me while fighting defensivly. I start the character next weekend and was looking for a little help. I start at level 20 for this campaign.
any help is much appreciated.

Sorry looks like I turned this feat finding into a Char. Opt.
======================================== ==
UPDATE:
Hey everyone I have a few updates to the build. one I'm going dwaven defender as my PrC I can't find a better PrC. character = fighter10/dwarvendefender10

after reading rules for fight defensively and total defense I realised I will primarly be using fight defensively since it stacks with everything so far and can use combat expertise with it.

NEED 2 MORE FEATS
I will have 7 feats from levels and 6 feats from fighter = 13
any that help while fighting defensively would be great!

feats:
1. exotic weapon proficency(broadblade short sword) - +2 dodge ac while fighting defensivly - sword in complete adventure, feat in PHB
2. combat expertise - simple enough- PHB
3. dodge - simple enough- PHB
4. melee evasion - great to dodge touch attacks while fighting defensively- PHB2
5. shield specialization - +1 ac shield bonus - PHB 2
6. active shield defence - get AoO in fighting defensivly- PHB2
7. improved combat expertise - no limit to subtraction from BAB- complete warrior
8. endurance - prereq for dwarven defender -PHB
9. improved toughness - more HP - complete warrior
10. goad - enemy targets me -complete adventurer
11. shield ward - add ac to touch and special combat manueuvers - PHB 2
12. ?
13. ?
* DM allowing me to use improve toughness as toughness for prereq for dwarven defender.

===== FINAL AC BREAK DOWN ===== refer to post #6 if interested max ATM = 89AC.
D-Dus
05-04-07, 08:14 AM Note::
AC AS STANDS = 10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+3(dex)+2(broad blade)+20(improved combat expertise)+4 (total defence)+1(dodge)= 52AC:fight!:.
Full Plate has a max dex of +1...
So when wearing full plate, you only use +1 of your +3 dex on AC (unless it's mithrill...), reducing your current AC to 50.

On topic:
Some ideas for magic on your armor/shield and weapon:
- Obviously enhancement bonuses on your armor and shield will increase their AC value.
- Get Heavy Fortification on your armor/shield; although this won't improve your AC, it will prevent 75% of critical hits. Always good for a tank. (Same would go for spell/ energy resistances...)
- Defending ability on your weapons, transfers your enhancement bonus of your weapon to AC that stacks with everything! (So get a +5 Defending weapon...)

I don't have any access to books (I'm at work), so this is all I have for now.
I'm sure other people can give you some ideas on wondrous items to get ;)

Hope this helps so far :)
Novacat
05-04-07, 09:05 AM I'm pretty sure the broadblade provides a shield bonus, which doesn't stack with your normal shield. You also can't use Total Defense at the same time as Combat Expertise, since the former requires you to give up your attacks, while the latter requires you make an attack.

Also remember that your figures there assume a 20th level fighter. At first level, you're looking at:

10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+4(Broadblade)+4 (total defence)+1(dodge)= 31AC if you don't attack

10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+2(broad blade)+2 (fighting defensively)+1(dodge)= 28AC if you attack with a -4 penalty

As a first level dwarf, you're only going to have one feat, so you'll have to drop either Dodge or Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
tarkin
05-04-07, 10:29 AM No one mentioned it, so I will:

Don't forget that you want at least 5 ranks in Tumble:

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC.
darkeness
05-04-07, 10:36 AM Also remember that your figures there assume a 20th level fighter. At first level, you're looking at:

10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+4(Broadblade)+4 (total defence)+1(dodge)= 31AC if you don't attack

10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+2(broad blade)+2 (fighting defensively)+1(dodge)= 28AC if you attack with a -4 penalty

Just to be a pain: At first level he is probably not going to have full plate. Most likely scale depending on cash. So that gives.... 8-4 (armor diffence) +2 (dex modifer difference between full plate & scale or breastplate) = -2 off the AC totals given above.

The tumble bonus was a good one tarkin! It is often overlooked for fighters since it is cross-class skill.
calprinicus
05-04-07, 12:02 PM A few updates and thanks.

I'm pretty sure the broadblade provides a shield bonus, which doesn't stack with your normal shield. You also can't use Total Defense at the same time as Combat Expertise, since the former requires you to give up your attacks, while the latter requires you make an attack.

after rechecking The broadblade adds to your dodge bonus not shield so I can still use it as my primary weapon :)

Full Plate has a max dex of +1...
So when wearing full plate, you only use +1 of your +3 dex on AC (unless it's mithrill...), reducing your current AC to 50.
On topic:
Some ideas for magic on your armor/shield and weapon:
- Obviously enhancement bonuses on your armor and shield will increase their AC value.
- Get Heavy Fortification on your armor/shield; although this won't improve your AC, it will prevent 75% of critical hits. Always good for a tank. (Same would go for spell/ energy resistances...)
- Defending ability on your weapons, transfers your enhancement bonus of your weapon to AC that stacks with everything! (So get a +5 Defending weapon...)

I replaced my dex. I will have full plate armor with as High magic bonus I can grab.and I only have +2 dex. completely forgot about defending modifier thanks for that. great help and most appreciated, also i'm envious of your job :)

No one mentioned it, so I will:

Don't forget that you want at least 5 ranks in Tumble:

once again completely skiped my mind thanks.

=====FINAL AC BREAK DOWN:=====

armor: +5 mythril fullplate of greater,blurring - always have 20% concealment - MIC
shield: +5 metal heavy shield of heavy fortitude - cannot confirm crit on me - DMG
weapon: +5 defending broad,shortsword
+5 defending armor spikes
+5 defending shield spikes
amulet of natural armor (+5) - +5 natural armor - DMG
ring of protection (+5) - +5 deflection - DMG
----------
normal = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shield+shield specialize) + 3(dex)** + 1(dodge)+4(dwarven defender) + 5(natural) +5(deflection) = 49AC

Touch = 10 + 8(shield+shield speciality(shield ward)) + 3(dex)** + 4(dwarven defender) + 1(dodge) + 5(deflection) = 31AC

flat-footed = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shield+shield specialize) + 4(dwarven defender) +5(natural) +5(deflection)= 45AC

--------------------------

defensive stance = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shieldr+shield specialize) + 3(dex)** + 1(dodge)+4(dwarven defender)+4(defensive stance)+20(combat expertise)+15(defending)+ 5(natural) +5(deflection)= 88AC

fighting defensivly = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shield+shield specialize) + 3(dex)** + 1(dodge)+4(dwarven defender)+3(fighting defensely)*+2(broad shortsword)+15(defending)+20(combat expertise) + 5(natural) +5(deflection)= 89AC :fight!:

*with 5+ ranks in tumble
** according to 'magic item compendium' max dex for mythral fullplate is +3 pg. 6
Thanks again for your Help.

Note:
I rolled HP. and have 265 with this build. and would get an extra temp 40hp in defensive stance.
Alvoros Darkleaf
05-04-07, 01:44 PM I don't see "Shield Ward" anywhere in there....adds your shield bonus to your touch AC against grapples, trips, rays etc.

Your touch AC is sill pretty low "relatively" speaking. The enemy fighters will have a tougher time hitting you, but the enemy casters will likely still have their way with you.

Alvo
Alvoros Darkleaf
05-04-07, 01:47 PM Oh Oh Boo Boo,

I just glanced at "Shield Specialization" feat, and nowhere in there does it state you can use it with a Tower Shield....which also means Shield Ward won't work with it either....buckler, light, and heavy are the only ones listed.

Alvo
calprinicus
05-04-07, 02:37 PM Oh Oh Boo Boo,

I just glanced at "Shield Specialization" feat, and nowhere in there does it state you can use it with a Tower Shield....which also means Shield Ward won't work with it either....buckler, light, and heavy are the only ones listed.

Alvo

ARG it looks like your right. bummer.
anyways to your previous post, in touch attacks I can use the melee evasion feat to gain a higher touch AC when fighting defensively. against caster I don't take any out of BAB with combat expertise, so I can have a touch AC = 20+1d20. works well versus there touch spells.

EDIT: I also realized I could add defending spikes to both shield and armor for an extra +10ac bonus.
Alvoros Darkleaf
05-04-07, 03:35 PM You can only use "Melee Evasion" against the opponent who is also the target of the dodge feat, so you would only have that ability against one opponent at a time. That is likely the one you are in melee with....fighting multiple opponents, with some casters flying around is going to leave you pretty open to attack with a low touch AC against rays etc. I think Shield Ward would server much better...always up against everyone.

Alvo
Rhuxley
05-04-07, 04:06 PM The trait 'Cautious' from UA grants a +1 when fighting defensively or when using the total defence action.
calprinicus
05-04-07, 04:10 PM UA? what book is this?
Rhuxley
05-04-07, 04:12 PM Unearthed Arcana
you could check the SRD for it too.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#cautious
calprinicus
05-04-07, 04:35 PM thanks alot for the link and quick responce, though not sure if DM will allow traits but I'll check next time I see him.
Novacat
05-04-07, 09:13 PM Errata gives the dodge bonus from the broadblade shortsword as +1 instead of +2.
calprinicus
05-05-07, 01:30 AM Errata gives the dodge bonus from the broadblade shortsword as +1 instead of +2.

that is why I prefer the one from complete adventurer

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
calprinicus 05-04-07, 03:38 AM	Creating a build that is souly based as a tank that fights defensively. looking for anything (expecially feats) that help me while fighting defensivly. I start the character next weekend and was looking for a little help. I start at level 20 for this campaign. any help is much appreciated. Sorry looks like I turned this feat finding into a Char. Opt. ======================================== == UPDATE: Hey everyone I have a few updates to the build. one I'm going dwaven defender as my PrC I can't find a better PrC. character = fighter10/dwarvendefender10 after reading rules for fight defensively and total defense I realised I will primarly be using fight defensively since it stacks with everything so far and can use combat expertise with it. NEED 2 MORE FEATS I will have 7 feats from levels and 6 feats from fighter = 13 any that help while fighting defensively would be great! feats: 1. exotic weapon proficency(broadblade short sword) - +2 dodge ac while fighting defensivly - sword in complete adventure, feat in PHB 2. combat expertise - simple enough- PHB 3. dodge - simple enough- PHB 4. melee evasion - great to dodge touch attacks while fighting defensively- PHB2 5. shield specialization - +1 ac shield bonus - PHB 2 6. active shield defence - get AoO in fighting defensivly- PHB2 7. improved combat expertise - no limit to subtraction from BAB- complete warrior 8. endurance - prereq for dwarven defender -PHB 9. improved toughness - more HP - complete warrior 10. goad - enemy targets me -complete adventurer 11. shield ward - add ac to touch and special combat manueuvers - PHB 2 12. ? 13. ? * DM allowing me to use improve toughness as toughness for prereq for dwarven defender. ===== FINAL AC BREAK DOWN ===== refer to post #6 if interested max ATM = 89AC.
D-Dus 05-04-07, 08:14 AM	Note:: AC AS STANDS = 10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+3(dex)+2(broad blade)+20(improved combat expertise)+4 (total defence)+1(dodge)= 52AC:fight!:. Full Plate has a max dex of +1... So when wearing full plate, you only use +1 of your +3 dex on AC (unless it's mithrill...), reducing your current AC to 50. On topic: Some ideas for magic on your armor/shield and weapon: - Obviously enhancement bonuses on your armor and shield will increase their AC value. - Get Heavy Fortification on your armor/shield; although this won't improve your AC, it will prevent 75% of critical hits. Always good for a tank. (Same would go for spell/ energy resistances...) - Defending ability on your weapons, transfers your enhancement bonus of your weapon to AC that stacks with everything! (So get a +5 Defending weapon...) I don't have any access to books (I'm at work), so this is all I have for now. I'm sure other people can give you some ideas on wondrous items to get ;) Hope this helps so far :)
Novacat 05-04-07, 09:05 AM	I'm pretty sure the broadblade provides a shield bonus, which doesn't stack with your normal shield. You also can't use Total Defense at the same time as Combat Expertise, since the former requires you to give up your attacks, while the latter requires you make an attack. Also remember that your figures there assume a 20th level fighter. At first level, you're looking at: 10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+4(Broadblade)+4 (total defence)+1(dodge)= 31AC if you don't attack 10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+2(broad blade)+2 (fighting defensively)+1(dodge)= 28AC if you attack with a -4 penalty As a first level dwarf, you're only going to have one feat, so you'll have to drop either Dodge or Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
tarkin 05-04-07, 10:29 AM	No one mentioned it, so I will: Don't forget that you want at least 5 ranks in Tumble: If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC.
darkeness 05-04-07, 10:36 AM	Also remember that your figures there assume a 20th level fighter. At first level, you're looking at: 10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+4(Broadblade)+4 (total defence)+1(dodge)= 31AC if you don't attack 10(base)+8(full plate)+4(tower(shield speciality))+1(dex)+2(broad blade)+2 (fighting defensively)+1(dodge)= 28AC if you attack with a -4 penalty Just to be a pain: At first level he is probably not going to have full plate. Most likely scale depending on cash. So that gives.... 8-4 (armor diffence) +2 (dex modifer difference between full plate & scale or breastplate) = -2 off the AC totals given above. The tumble bonus was a good one tarkin! It is often overlooked for fighters since it is cross-class skill.
calprinicus 05-04-07, 12:02 PM	A few updates and thanks. I'm pretty sure the broadblade provides a shield bonus, which doesn't stack with your normal shield. You also can't use Total Defense at the same time as Combat Expertise, since the former requires you to give up your attacks, while the latter requires you make an attack. after rechecking The broadblade adds to your dodge bonus not shield so I can still use it as my primary weapon :) Full Plate has a max dex of +1... So when wearing full plate, you only use +1 of your +3 dex on AC (unless it's mithrill...), reducing your current AC to 50. On topic: Some ideas for magic on your armor/shield and weapon: - Obviously enhancement bonuses on your armor and shield will increase their AC value. - Get Heavy Fortification on your armor/shield; although this won't improve your AC, it will prevent 75% of critical hits. Always good for a tank. (Same would go for spell/ energy resistances...) - Defending ability on your weapons, transfers your enhancement bonus of your weapon to AC that stacks with everything! (So get a +5 Defending weapon...) I replaced my dex. I will have full plate armor with as High magic bonus I can grab.and I only have +2 dex. completely forgot about defending modifier thanks for that. great help and most appreciated, also i'm envious of your job :) No one mentioned it, so I will: Don't forget that you want at least 5 ranks in Tumble: once again completely skiped my mind thanks. =====FINAL AC BREAK DOWN:===== armor: +5 mythril fullplate of greater,blurring - always have 20% concealment - MIC shield: +5 metal heavy shield of heavy fortitude - cannot confirm crit on me - DMG weapon: +5 defending broad,shortsword +5 defending armor spikes +5 defending shield spikes amulet of natural armor (+5) - +5 natural armor - DMG ring of protection (+5) - +5 deflection - DMG ---------- normal = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shield+shield specialize) + 3(dex) + 1(dodge)+4(dwarven defender) + 5(natural) +5(deflection) = 49AC Touch = 10 + 8(shield+shield speciality(shield ward)) + 3(dex) + 4(dwarven defender) + 1(dodge) + 5(deflection) = 31AC flat-footed = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shield+shield specialize) + 4(dwarven defender) +5(natural) +5(deflection)= 45AC -------------------------- defensive stance = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shieldr+shield specialize) + 3(dex) + 1(dodge)+4(dwarven defender)+4(defensive stance)+20(combat expertise)+15(defending)+ 5(natural) +5(deflection)= 88AC fighting defensivly = 10 + 13(fullplate) + 8(shield+shield specialize) + 3(dex) + 1(dodge)+4(dwarven defender)+3(fighting defensely)+2(broad shortsword)+15(defending)+20(combat expertise) + 5(natural) +5(deflection)= 89AC :fight!: with 5+ ranks in tumble ** according to 'magic item compendium' max dex for mythral fullplate is +3 pg. 6 Thanks again for your Help. Note: I rolled HP. and have 265 with this build. and would get an extra temp 40hp in defensive stance.
Alvoros Darkleaf 05-04-07, 01:44 PM	I don't see "Shield Ward" anywhere in there....adds your shield bonus to your touch AC against grapples, trips, rays etc. Your touch AC is sill pretty low "relatively" speaking. The enemy fighters will have a tougher time hitting you, but the enemy casters will likely still have their way with you. Alvo
Alvoros Darkleaf 05-04-07, 01:47 PM	Oh Oh Boo Boo, I just glanced at "Shield Specialization" feat, and nowhere in there does it state you can use it with a Tower Shield....which also means Shield Ward won't work with it either....buckler, light, and heavy are the only ones listed. Alvo
calprinicus 05-04-07, 02:37 PM	Oh Oh Boo Boo, I just glanced at "Shield Specialization" feat, and nowhere in there does it state you can use it with a Tower Shield....which also means Shield Ward won't work with it either....buckler, light, and heavy are the only ones listed. Alvo ARG it looks like your right. bummer. anyways to your previous post, in touch attacks I can use the melee evasion feat to gain a higher touch AC when fighting defensively. against caster I don't take any out of BAB with combat expertise, so I can have a touch AC = 20+1d20. works well versus there touch spells. EDIT: I also realized I could add defending spikes to both shield and armor for an extra +10ac bonus.
Alvoros Darkleaf 05-04-07, 03:35 PM	You can only use "Melee Evasion" against the opponent who is also the target of the dodge feat, so you would only have that ability against one opponent at a time. That is likely the one you are in melee with....fighting multiple opponents, with some casters flying around is going to leave you pretty open to attack with a low touch AC against rays etc. I think Shield Ward would server much better...always up against everyone. Alvo
Rhuxley 05-04-07, 04:06 PM	The trait 'Cautious' from UA grants a +1 when fighting defensively or when using the total defence action.
calprinicus 05-04-07, 04:10 PM	UA? what book is this?
Rhuxley 05-04-07, 04:12 PM	Unearthed Arcana you could check the SRD for it too. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#cautious
calprinicus 05-04-07, 04:35 PM	thanks alot for the link and quick responce, though not sure if DM will allow traits but I'll check next time I see him.
Novacat 05-04-07, 09:13 PM	Errata gives the dodge bonus from the broadblade shortsword as +1 instead of +2.
calprinicus 05-05-07, 01:30 AM	Errata gives the dodge bonus from the broadblade shortsword as +1 instead of +2. that is why I prefer the one from complete adventurer