finding poison [Archive] - Wizards Community

finding poison [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orenmir
03-24-08, 01:31 PM There is a deity from the FR setting named Fenmarel Mestarine. This is a CN god of Wild and Feral Elves that condones and supports poison use. Being wild and/or feral, I doubt these Elves have alchemy labs to create these poisons chemically. I think it's a safe assumption that they use poisons that they find naturally from plants, roots, bark, etc.

If playing such a character, my questions are these...

What type of check to find the plants, roots, bark, etc. -- Survival, Knowledge (Nature), Craft (Poisonmaking), Search?
How do you determine the DC of the check?
How long must you search to warrant such a check?
How do you determine which poison(s) you find?
How do you determine the quantity of doses you find?

I understand that there is need for a Craft (Poisonmaking) check to "harvest" the poison into a usable form. The questions above are related to obtaining the materials.

I also understand that such a character would also extract venom from slain monsters to use as poison. Such a situation is much more straight forward, and I have already found rules to apply.

Thanks in advance.
LSMFT
03-24-08, 03:30 PM What type of check to find the plants, roots, bark, etc. -- Survival, Knowledge (Nature), Craft (Poisonmaking), Search?
How do you determine the DC of the check?
How long must you search to warrant such a check?
How do you determine which poison(s) you find?
How do you determine the quantity of doses you find?

This is all subjective:
A plant is not something you make. It either exists in a given location, or it does not. Whether it is there or not, is up to the DM, just like he decides if where and when a dragon is around, he decides if where and when a plant is.

Now, knowledge (nature) check should give you information on where certain plants are likely to grow. For example, hemlock likes to grow where it is shady and wet. So you would know to look near shady pools. Whether this is a basic, easy, or really tough question sort of depends on who you are. If you grew up around hemlock, well, duh, you probably know that. In the desert? No one has seen that plant, probably few people know that tidbit of info.

I would say that a Knowledge (local) would give you info on specific places where plants are known to grow. For example, K(nature) says that hemlock likes shady streams.

K(local) is that by the pools of Suchandsuch Creek, a lot of hemlock grows. DC, again, sort of depends on who you are. If Suchandsuch Creek runs by your house, probably a 1. If it is on the other side of the world, higher.

Once you know where to look, I think a Search check fits best. The DC is probably best determined by the size, frequency, and habits of the plant in question. If you are looking for the bark of a tree that grows 60 feet tall, probably pretty low. If you are in the right area, and the tree is there, good chance you are going to spot it.

If you are looking for a tiny mushroom that may or may not be found on the high branches of such a tree, well, certainly that will be harder to find.

As a DM, I am not going to devote a great deal of time/effort into deciding how many striped toadstools are in a given neck of the woods, how long they take to find, and all this jazz. I’m going to look at the poison, its cost, your level and the average party wealth, and give you a number.
Orenmir
03-24-08, 06:30 PM I agree that this process should not be complicated or convoluted. Last thing I want to do is slow down the game for something so personal. As a player or a DM, I don't mind that the DM does a bit of rule 0 in this case. I just like to have a system in place as a guideline.

Let me try to answer my own questions and see what you readers have in the way of advice.

The typical scenario might go something like this...

Elf wants to spend some time looking for naturally occurring poisons in a forest.
He can make 1 Survival check for every hour he spends looking.
He can spend a maximum of 4 hours before his general current location is completely depleted of resources.
DC is 15 and subject to change by the DM depending on location and familiarity of the environment.
A failed check results in an hour of time elapsed with no materials found.
A successful check results in the discovery of one dose of poison.
For every 4 points the check exceeds the DC, an additional dose is found.
Roll d% to determine what kind of poison each dose contains from a random "Natural Poison Chart."
Make a Craft (Poisonmaking) check for each material discovered to determine if it can be harvested into a usable poison.
DC is the DC of the poison.
Success means one dose of said poison is created.
Failure means no dose is created and the materials are lost.

The "Natural Poison Chart" would include all poisons that come from plants, herbs, roots, etc. Typical poisons with low DCs would span larger ranges on the chart, whilst powerful poisons with high DCs occupy single numbers. And, the DM would have final say as to whether or not any poison could actually be found in the current environment.

It looks like a long process written down; but, I do believe it can be done rather quickly. After the DM declares the DC for finding the materials, the player can make a series of rolls to determine his own success.

Thoughts?
The_Shaman
03-24-08, 07:32 PM I believe survival was used for foraging... whether you're foraging for berries or other materials. This was further detailed in Dragon and possibly PHB II. I would presume that you'd need Knowledge N to know what plants are used for poisons, survival to locate them, and craft poisonmaking - or at least alchemy - to distill the substance.
garoka
03-24-08, 08:01 PM I only know 2 poisons and I use Herbalism

Tobacco water tobacco+boiling water
Sting nettle potion Sting nettles+freshly melted ice
Orenmir
03-25-08, 11:31 AM I'm working on the "Natural Poison Chart." I've dug around in the following books: DMG, CAdv, BoVD, DotU, A&EG, and Alchemy & Herbalism. Sure, A&EG is 3.0 and A&H is 3rd party... I just wanted to get as wide a base as I could find. Here's what I have so far:

NAME TYPE CREATE RESIST INITIAL SECONDARY COST
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alforna Injury 15 11 1d2 Str Fatigue 75
Oil of Taggit Ingested 15 15 0 Unconsciousness 90
Bloodroot Injury 15 12 0 1d4 Con + 1d3 Wis 100
Culum Powder Ingested 15 12 1 Dex 1d4 Dex 100
Blue Whinnis Injury 15 14 1 Con Unconsciousness 120
Rill Leaf Injury 15 14 1d2 Cha 1d4 Cha 120
Id Moss Ingested 15 14 1d4 Int 2d6 Int 125
Haluroot Injury 15 13 1d2 Wis 1d2 Wis 150
Adlevine Extract Ingested 20 14 1d4 Wis, +2 Con 2d6 Con 150
Cretel Leaf Residue Ingested 20 14 1d4 Con, +2 Dex 1d6 Con 150
Faralin Ingested 20 14 1d4 Dex, +2 Str 1d6 Con 150
Striped Toadstool Ingested 15 11 1 Wis 2d6 Wis + 1d4 Int 180
Crippling Vine Contact 15 13 1d4 Str + 1d4 Con 0 180
Oil of Ichorage Injury 17 18 1 Str 1d8 HP per 1d4 rnds 225
Shreef Oil Injury 15 12 1d2 Str + 1d2 Dex 1d2 Str 250
Vapid Leaf Extract Injury 20 16 Dazed 2d6 Int 250
Sassone Leaf Residue Contact 20 16 2d12 HP 1d6 Con 300
Mesmer Paste Contact 20 15 Dazzled 1d4 Int 300
Malyss Root Paste Contact 20 16 1 Dex 2d4 Dex 500
Sleeping Weed Contact 15 13 Slowed 1d4 Dex 500
Horror Weed Extract Contact 25 20 1 Wis 2d4 Wis 600
Nitharit Contact 20 13 0 3d6 Con 650
Terinav Root Contact 25 16 1d6 Dex 2d6 Dex 750
Anemis Contact 20 16 1d4 Str 2d4 Str 750
Redek Vine Extract Injury 25 17 2d6 Dex 0 1500
Thever Paste Contact 25 12 0 Blindness 1500
Burnt Othur Fumes Inhaled 25 18 1 Con (drain) 3d6 Con 2100
Gray Whinnis Injury 20 20 1d4 Con Paralysis 3000
Black Lotus Extract Contact 35 20 3d6 Con 3d6 Con 4500

I had to do some research to figure out exactly which poisons were natural and which were chemical. Some were obvious, containing words like "root" in the name; some, like Whinnis were less obvious.

Let me know if I missed any, or if I included any that should not be. Also, let me know if there are any other books I should be looking through. After solidifying a good list of materials, I will be making the random generator chart.
Legdiwena
03-25-08, 07:03 PM Don't forget about harvesting venom from sacs of snakes and other poisonous critters.
MnemonicSV
03-27-08, 02:39 AM Nice Table. :)

Don't forget belladonna (wolfsbane). I suppose belladonna should have two entries: Belladonna (Fresh) and Belladonna (Preserved). Only because fresh belladonna (a sprig picked within 1 week), doesn't even require a Craft(poisonmaking) DC to be effective when ingested. At least according to the lycanthropy section of the MM.

I would think arsenic should be in there too. Doesn't even need a Craft DC, just a price.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 03-24-08, 01:31 PM	There is a deity from the FR setting named Fenmarel Mestarine. This is a CN god of Wild and Feral Elves that condones and supports poison use. Being wild and/or feral, I doubt these Elves have alchemy labs to create these poisons chemically. I think it's a safe assumption that they use poisons that they find naturally from plants, roots, bark, etc. If playing such a character, my questions are these... What type of check to find the plants, roots, bark, etc. -- Survival, Knowledge (Nature), Craft (Poisonmaking), Search? How do you determine the DC of the check? How long must you search to warrant such a check? How do you determine which poison(s) you find? How do you determine the quantity of doses you find? I understand that there is need for a Craft (Poisonmaking) check to "harvest" the poison into a usable form. The questions above are related to obtaining the materials. I also understand that such a character would also extract venom from slain monsters to use as poison. Such a situation is much more straight forward, and I have already found rules to apply. Thanks in advance.
LSMFT 03-24-08, 03:30 PM	What type of check to find the plants, roots, bark, etc. -- Survival, Knowledge (Nature), Craft (Poisonmaking), Search? How do you determine the DC of the check? How long must you search to warrant such a check? How do you determine which poison(s) you find? How do you determine the quantity of doses you find? This is all subjective: A plant is not something you make. It either exists in a given location, or it does not. Whether it is there or not, is up to the DM, just like he decides if where and when a dragon is around, he decides if where and when a plant is. Now, knowledge (nature) check should give you information on where certain plants are likely to grow. For example, hemlock likes to grow where it is shady and wet. So you would know to look near shady pools. Whether this is a basic, easy, or really tough question sort of depends on who you are. If you grew up around hemlock, well, duh, you probably know that. In the desert? No one has seen that plant, probably few people know that tidbit of info. I would say that a Knowledge (local) would give you info on specific places where plants are known to grow. For example, K(nature) says that hemlock likes shady streams. K(local) is that by the pools of Suchandsuch Creek, a lot of hemlock grows. DC, again, sort of depends on who you are. If Suchandsuch Creek runs by your house, probably a 1. If it is on the other side of the world, higher. Once you know where to look, I think a Search check fits best. The DC is probably best determined by the size, frequency, and habits of the plant in question. If you are looking for the bark of a tree that grows 60 feet tall, probably pretty low. If you are in the right area, and the tree is there, good chance you are going to spot it. If you are looking for a tiny mushroom that may or may not be found on the high branches of such a tree, well, certainly that will be harder to find. As a DM, I am not going to devote a great deal of time/effort into deciding how many striped toadstools are in a given neck of the woods, how long they take to find, and all this jazz. I’m going to look at the poison, its cost, your level and the average party wealth, and give you a number.
Orenmir 03-24-08, 06:30 PM	I agree that this process should not be complicated or convoluted. Last thing I want to do is slow down the game for something so personal. As a player or a DM, I don't mind that the DM does a bit of rule 0 in this case. I just like to have a system in place as a guideline. Let me try to answer my own questions and see what you readers have in the way of advice. The typical scenario might go something like this... Elf wants to spend some time looking for naturally occurring poisons in a forest. He can make 1 Survival check for every hour he spends looking. He can spend a maximum of 4 hours before his general current location is completely depleted of resources. DC is 15 and subject to change by the DM depending on location and familiarity of the environment. A failed check results in an hour of time elapsed with no materials found. A successful check results in the discovery of one dose of poison. For every 4 points the check exceeds the DC, an additional dose is found. Roll d% to determine what kind of poison each dose contains from a random "Natural Poison Chart." Make a Craft (Poisonmaking) check for each material discovered to determine if it can be harvested into a usable poison. DC is the DC of the poison. Success means one dose of said poison is created. Failure means no dose is created and the materials are lost. The "Natural Poison Chart" would include all poisons that come from plants, herbs, roots, etc. Typical poisons with low DCs would span larger ranges on the chart, whilst powerful poisons with high DCs occupy single numbers. And, the DM would have final say as to whether or not any poison could actually be found in the current environment. It looks like a long process written down; but, I do believe it can be done rather quickly. After the DM declares the DC for finding the materials, the player can make a series of rolls to determine his own success. Thoughts?
The_Shaman 03-24-08, 07:32 PM	I believe survival was used for foraging... whether you're foraging for berries or other materials. This was further detailed in Dragon and possibly PHB II. I would presume that you'd need Knowledge N to know what plants are used for poisons, survival to locate them, and craft poisonmaking - or at least alchemy - to distill the substance.
garoka 03-24-08, 08:01 PM	I only know 2 poisons and I use Herbalism Tobacco water tobacco+boiling water Sting nettle potion Sting nettles+freshly melted ice
Orenmir 03-25-08, 11:31 AM	I'm working on the "Natural Poison Chart." I've dug around in the following books: DMG, CAdv, BoVD, DotU, A&EG, and Alchemy & Herbalism. Sure, A&EG is 3.0 and A&H is 3rd party... I just wanted to get as wide a base as I could find. Here's what I have so far: NAME TYPE CREATE RESIST INITIAL SECONDARY COST ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alforna Injury 15 11 1d2 Str Fatigue 75 Oil of Taggit Ingested 15 15 0 Unconsciousness 90 Bloodroot Injury 15 12 0 1d4 Con + 1d3 Wis 100 Culum Powder Ingested 15 12 1 Dex 1d4 Dex 100 Blue Whinnis Injury 15 14 1 Con Unconsciousness 120 Rill Leaf Injury 15 14 1d2 Cha 1d4 Cha 120 Id Moss Ingested 15 14 1d4 Int 2d6 Int 125 Haluroot Injury 15 13 1d2 Wis 1d2 Wis 150 Adlevine Extract Ingested 20 14 1d4 Wis, +2 Con 2d6 Con 150 Cretel Leaf Residue Ingested 20 14 1d4 Con, +2 Dex 1d6 Con 150 Faralin Ingested 20 14 1d4 Dex, +2 Str 1d6 Con 150 Striped Toadstool Ingested 15 11 1 Wis 2d6 Wis + 1d4 Int 180 Crippling Vine Contact 15 13 1d4 Str + 1d4 Con 0 180 Oil of Ichorage Injury 17 18 1 Str 1d8 HP per 1d4 rnds 225 Shreef Oil Injury 15 12 1d2 Str + 1d2 Dex 1d2 Str 250 Vapid Leaf Extract Injury 20 16 Dazed 2d6 Int 250 Sassone Leaf Residue Contact 20 16 2d12 HP 1d6 Con 300 Mesmer Paste Contact 20 15 Dazzled 1d4 Int 300 Malyss Root Paste Contact 20 16 1 Dex 2d4 Dex 500 Sleeping Weed Contact 15 13 Slowed 1d4 Dex 500 Horror Weed Extract Contact 25 20 1 Wis 2d4 Wis 600 Nitharit Contact 20 13 0 3d6 Con 650 Terinav Root Contact 25 16 1d6 Dex 2d6 Dex 750 Anemis Contact 20 16 1d4 Str 2d4 Str 750 Redek Vine Extract Injury 25 17 2d6 Dex 0 1500 Thever Paste Contact 25 12 0 Blindness 1500 Burnt Othur Fumes Inhaled 25 18 1 Con (drain) 3d6 Con 2100 Gray Whinnis Injury 20 20 1d4 Con Paralysis 3000 Black Lotus Extract Contact 35 20 3d6 Con 3d6 Con 4500 I had to do some research to figure out exactly which poisons were natural and which were chemical. Some were obvious, containing words like "root" in the name; some, like Whinnis were less obvious. Let me know if I missed any, or if I included any that should not be. Also, let me know if there are any other books I should be looking through. After solidifying a good list of materials, I will be making the random generator chart.
Legdiwena 03-25-08, 07:03 PM	Don't forget about harvesting venom from sacs of snakes and other poisonous critters.
MnemonicSV 03-27-08, 02:39 AM	Nice Table. :) Don't forget belladonna (wolfsbane). I suppose belladonna should have two entries: Belladonna (Fresh) and Belladonna (Preserved). Only because fresh belladonna (a sprig picked within 1 week), doesn't even require a Craft(poisonmaking) DC to be effective when ingested. At least according to the lycanthropy section of the MM. I would think arsenic should be in there too. Doesn't even need a Craft DC, just a price.