Fire Lash + Whirlwind Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fire Lash + Whirlwind Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shiikeras
06-10-07, 12:07 PM I'm not seeing anything in the PHB that stops me from hitting up to 45 people in one round, assuming all spaces around me are covered? Fire Lash is a 15-foot weapon that can strike adjacent opponents. I counted out on a big dungeon-tile all the squares 15-feet away, its 40-50. Kept losing track.
lord_xarallon
06-10-07, 01:00 PM IIRC there isn't.
Even if there if four tiny cats in each square, giving you over hundreds attacks.
danzibr
06-10-07, 01:33 PM I laughed when I read your post. Not because it's silly or anything, but because it seems perfectly legal and quite awesome. Pyrokineticist is awesome.

I even checked SRD and... yeah, totally seems possible. Nice work.

Dan
D.A.Dervish
06-10-07, 03:33 PM I believe that this isn't completely legal. The XPH indicates that attacks with the Fire Lash are ranged touch attacks while the Whirlwind feat states that you can make a melee attack against each target within your reach.
Skara
06-12-07, 06:47 AM What, really? Hmmm. Well, a Flaming Burst whip with Weapon Afire would work even better, I suppose, getting 5d6 fire damage for not a touch attack?

And thanks, Dan, I love trying to figure things like this out. People like you certainly encouradge it.
squigington
06-12-07, 07:10 AM IIRC there isn't.
Even if there if four tiny cats in each square, giving you over hundreds attacks.

there was that cool combo back in third edition that let you use this and great cleave to have a huge amount of attacks on a big bad...
JiCi
06-12-07, 07:35 AM I'm not seeing anything in the PHB that stops me from hitting up to 45 people in one round, assuming all spaces around me are covered? Fire Lash is a 15-foot weapon that can strike adjacent opponents. I counted out on a big dungeon-tile all the squares 15-feet away, its 40-50. Kept losing track.You will be able able to hit only 8 targets. While you can hit adjacent oppnents, the fire lash doesn't pass throught opponents. If a target is at 10 feet and another is right behind it, at 15 feet from you, you will hit only the closest target.
OgreMonk
06-12-07, 07:37 AM Flame Lash is not a melee attack, so no. Funny visual though.
Skara
06-12-07, 07:38 AM Note the second post I made. Greater Weapon Afire +Whip = Problem Fixed

Could you please show me where it the rules it says you can't hit behind someone with a reach weapon? 5 feet is a fairly large area, and that would make most reach weapons pretty useless.
OgreMonk
06-12-07, 08:08 AM Could you please show me where it the rules it says you can't hit behind someone with a reach weapon? 5 feet is a fairly large area, and that would make most reach weapons pretty useless.

Under the PHB section on cover. It does not state that you cannot make the attack, you just get some big penalties on attack attempts against them. They would receive a +4 to AC and you would not be eligible to make AoO against them.
NobodyRemembersThis
06-12-07, 08:54 AM So everyone within 10 feet gets an attack at the highest atb, and everyone else gets an attack at highest atb-4?

Yes please. Where do I sign up? :)
OgreMonk
06-12-07, 09:04 AM Silly, ain't it?
NobodyRemembersThis
06-12-07, 09:06 AM A little. But, it is completely legal. Cheezy as hell, but legal.
OgreMonk
06-12-07, 09:09 AM But considering how many feats have to be burned in order to use it, maybe not too cheesy.
SlanderPanic
06-12-07, 09:52 AM A human psychic warrior could qualify by 5th level, just in time to start taking levels in pyrokineticist. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that using a whip is considered a ranged attack. Everyone who threatens you gets to make an AoO and you can't make AoOs with the fire lash.

For a fun time, try on a human (or naturally-psionic race) ranger/pyro. Emphasize Dex and take Combat Reflexes. At the beginning of combat, cast arrowmind and AoO the crap out of anything that gets too close. Some ranged feats help your fire lash and fire bolt abilities, but you're best off taking two-weapon fighting for your ranger combat style. A few levels of soulknife might be fun, too, providing you with a free off-hand weapon.
Nom
06-12-07, 10:15 AM Cheezy as hell, but legal.To achieve this, you need 5 feats, BAB +4, Int 13, Dex 13, Concentration 8 ranks, Craft 1 rank, Know (Psi) 2 ranks, and a source of PP. The earliest you can manage it is 6th level, and the damage is 1d8 with a touch attack. At 6th level, taking a full round action to deal 1d8 (touch) to all creatures within 15 ft. (and provoking an AoO) isn't that impressive, especially since it leaves you standing smack in the middle of a pack of lightly warmed opponents with the ability to take AoOs.
tarkin
06-12-07, 10:28 AM I agree.

This is legal.

This is not cheesy.

It is not that powerfull.

-------

I find that the strategy tends to work best as follows.

Round 1a. delay/wait till after step b.
Round 1b.. Wizard blasts with nasty fireball.
Round 1c. You run into middle of enemey, taking a single spring attack attack on someone (you have whirlwind, you have spring attack) that MADE their save.
Round 2. You whirlwind, striking everyone, if you can do it. Hopefull some people that failed their save vs firebally die from your attack.

------

Another alternative is as follows.

1. You are a 6th level fighter, several level rogue
2. You use Dust of Dissappearance to attain Greater Invisibility
3. You use potion of Enlarge Person and a Spiked chain to get 20ft reach.
4. Whirlwind with sneak attack.

This build requries quite a lot of feats and levels of rogue to make work, not to mention two single use magic items, requiring two rounds of prep.

Whirlwind is dificult to make really nasty, which prevents it from being cheesy.
jaelis
06-12-07, 11:02 AM What, really? Hmmm. Well, a Flaming Burst whip with Weapon Afire would work even better, I suppose, getting 5d6 fire damage for not a touch attack?

Don't forget that attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity from all those folks.

A spiked chain is probably a better idea, even though it doesn't have quite the range.
Skara
06-12-07, 12:05 PM Oh darn, a normal whip is like that too? Fine then. Soverign Glue a spiked chain to a gnome in spiked full-plate. I wonder if that would need EWP Gnome-Flail though.

Seriously, even with a spiked chain, it wouldn't be that hard to pull off. You need mobility for the feat, so that's +4 dodge. Get some ranks in tumble, and you can get in the center of the melee real quick. A Fighter 10 pyro 10 (makes the feats less daunting, regardless of actual effectiveness) would have BAB +17, with your average +5 weapon and say 20 strength, that's +27 adjacent and +23 for everyone else. Not bad.

Also, when are you going to have that many guys that you can't hit with a -4 cover penalty? if there's 25 Skeletons around you, they won't have many HD (even at 20th level, as my example).
Nephlite
06-12-07, 01:31 PM A human psychic warrior could qualify by 5th level, just in time to start taking levels in pyrokineticist. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that using a whip is considered a ranged attack. Everyone who threatens you gets to make an AoO and you can't make AoOs with the fire lash.

For a fun time, try on a human (or naturally-psionic race) ranger/pyro. Emphasize Dex and take Combat Reflexes. At the beginning of combat, cast arrowmind and AoO the crap out of anything that gets too close. Some ranged feats help your fire lash and fire bolt abilities, but you're best off taking two-weapon fighting for your ranger combat style. A few levels of soulknife might be fun, too, providing you with a free off-hand weapon.

Not in 3.5. The whip is now a melee weapon (and thus adds Str bonus to damage and can be power attacked).
Whips do not provoke, but don't threaten.
jaelis
06-12-07, 02:49 PM Whips do not provoke, but don't threaten.

Perhaps you mistyped?

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
yonman
06-12-07, 04:00 PM This isn't that big a deal, a Psychic Warrior Expanded to Huge size gets the same reach of 15' with a bigger damage if he uses a Large two-handed weapon which gets Expanded to Gargantuan size damage.
Skara
06-12-07, 04:19 PM So? You can use Enlarge Person and you get the same thing. That's not the point. We're not using spells or psionics here, since the Fire Lash has kinda already been kicked out for being ranged. The point was talking about how Whirlwind Attack, with a adjacent+reach weapon gives you ridiculous amounts of attacks per round. Just a little fun with the rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiikeras 06-10-07, 12:07 PM	I'm not seeing anything in the PHB that stops me from hitting up to 45 people in one round, assuming all spaces around me are covered? Fire Lash is a 15-foot weapon that can strike adjacent opponents. I counted out on a big dungeon-tile all the squares 15-feet away, its 40-50. Kept losing track.
lord_xarallon 06-10-07, 01:00 PM	IIRC there isn't. Even if there if four tiny cats in each square, giving you over hundreds attacks.
danzibr 06-10-07, 01:33 PM	I laughed when I read your post. Not because it's silly or anything, but because it seems perfectly legal and quite awesome. Pyrokineticist is awesome. I even checked SRD and... yeah, totally seems possible. Nice work. Dan
D.A.Dervish 06-10-07, 03:33 PM	I believe that this isn't completely legal. The XPH indicates that attacks with the Fire Lash are ranged touch attacks while the Whirlwind feat states that you can make a melee attack against each target within your reach.
Skara 06-12-07, 06:47 AM	What, really? Hmmm. Well, a Flaming Burst whip with Weapon Afire would work even better, I suppose, getting 5d6 fire damage for not a touch attack? And thanks, Dan, I love trying to figure things like this out. People like you certainly encouradge it.
squigington 06-12-07, 07:10 AM	IIRC there isn't. Even if there if four tiny cats in each square, giving you over hundreds attacks. there was that cool combo back in third edition that let you use this and great cleave to have a huge amount of attacks on a big bad...
JiCi 06-12-07, 07:35 AM	I'm not seeing anything in the PHB that stops me from hitting up to 45 people in one round, assuming all spaces around me are covered? Fire Lash is a 15-foot weapon that can strike adjacent opponents. I counted out on a big dungeon-tile all the squares 15-feet away, its 40-50. Kept losing track.You will be able able to hit only 8 targets. While you can hit adjacent oppnents, the fire lash doesn't pass throught opponents. If a target is at 10 feet and another is right behind it, at 15 feet from you, you will hit only the closest target.
OgreMonk 06-12-07, 07:37 AM	Flame Lash is not a melee attack, so no. Funny visual though.
Skara 06-12-07, 07:38 AM	Note the second post I made. Greater Weapon Afire +Whip = Problem Fixed Could you please show me where it the rules it says you can't hit behind someone with a reach weapon? 5 feet is a fairly large area, and that would make most reach weapons pretty useless.
OgreMonk 06-12-07, 08:08 AM	Could you please show me where it the rules it says you can't hit behind someone with a reach weapon? 5 feet is a fairly large area, and that would make most reach weapons pretty useless. Under the PHB section on cover. It does not state that you cannot make the attack, you just get some big penalties on attack attempts against them. They would receive a +4 to AC and you would not be eligible to make AoO against them.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-12-07, 08:54 AM	So everyone within 10 feet gets an attack at the highest atb, and everyone else gets an attack at highest atb-4? Yes please. Where do I sign up? :)
OgreMonk 06-12-07, 09:04 AM	Silly, ain't it?
NobodyRemembersThis 06-12-07, 09:06 AM	A little. But, it is completely legal. Cheezy as hell, but legal.
OgreMonk 06-12-07, 09:09 AM	But considering how many feats have to be burned in order to use it, maybe not too cheesy.
SlanderPanic 06-12-07, 09:52 AM	A human psychic warrior could qualify by 5th level, just in time to start taking levels in pyrokineticist. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that using a whip is considered a ranged attack. Everyone who threatens you gets to make an AoO and you can't make AoOs with the fire lash. For a fun time, try on a human (or naturally-psionic race) ranger/pyro. Emphasize Dex and take Combat Reflexes. At the beginning of combat, cast arrowmind and AoO the crap out of anything that gets too close. Some ranged feats help your fire lash and fire bolt abilities, but you're best off taking two-weapon fighting for your ranger combat style. A few levels of soulknife might be fun, too, providing you with a free off-hand weapon.
Nom 06-12-07, 10:15 AM	Cheezy as hell, but legal.To achieve this, you need 5 feats, BAB +4, Int 13, Dex 13, Concentration 8 ranks, Craft 1 rank, Know (Psi) 2 ranks, and a source of PP. The earliest you can manage it is 6th level, and the damage is 1d8 with a touch attack. At 6th level, taking a full round action to deal 1d8 (touch) to all creatures within 15 ft. (and provoking an AoO) isn't that impressive, especially since it leaves you standing smack in the middle of a pack of lightly warmed opponents with the ability to take AoOs.
tarkin 06-12-07, 10:28 AM	I agree. This is legal. This is not cheesy. It is not that powerfull. ------- I find that the strategy tends to work best as follows. Round 1a. delay/wait till after step b. Round 1b.. Wizard blasts with nasty fireball. Round 1c. You run into middle of enemey, taking a single spring attack attack on someone (you have whirlwind, you have spring attack) that MADE their save. Round 2. You whirlwind, striking everyone, if you can do it. Hopefull some people that failed their save vs firebally die from your attack. ------ Another alternative is as follows. 1. You are a 6th level fighter, several level rogue 2. You use Dust of Dissappearance to attain Greater Invisibility 3. You use potion of Enlarge Person and a Spiked chain to get 20ft reach. 4. Whirlwind with sneak attack. This build requries quite a lot of feats and levels of rogue to make work, not to mention two single use magic items, requiring two rounds of prep. Whirlwind is dificult to make really nasty, which prevents it from being cheesy.
jaelis 06-12-07, 11:02 AM	What, really? Hmmm. Well, a Flaming Burst whip with Weapon Afire would work even better, I suppose, getting 5d6 fire damage for not a touch attack? Don't forget that attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity from all those folks. A spiked chain is probably a better idea, even though it doesn't have quite the range.
Skara 06-12-07, 12:05 PM	Oh darn, a normal whip is like that too? Fine then. Soverign Glue a spiked chain to a gnome in spiked full-plate. I wonder if that would need EWP Gnome-Flail though. Seriously, even with a spiked chain, it wouldn't be that hard to pull off. You need mobility for the feat, so that's +4 dodge. Get some ranks in tumble, and you can get in the center of the melee real quick. A Fighter 10 pyro 10 (makes the feats less daunting, regardless of actual effectiveness) would have BAB +17, with your average +5 weapon and say 20 strength, that's +27 adjacent and +23 for everyone else. Not bad. Also, when are you going to have that many guys that you can't hit with a -4 cover penalty? if there's 25 Skeletons around you, they won't have many HD (even at 20th level, as my example).
Nephlite 06-12-07, 01:31 PM	A human psychic warrior could qualify by 5th level, just in time to start taking levels in pyrokineticist. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that using a whip is considered a ranged attack. Everyone who threatens you gets to make an AoO and you can't make AoOs with the fire lash. For a fun time, try on a human (or naturally-psionic race) ranger/pyro. Emphasize Dex and take Combat Reflexes. At the beginning of combat, cast arrowmind and AoO the crap out of anything that gets too close. Some ranged feats help your fire lash and fire bolt abilities, but you're best off taking two-weapon fighting for your ranger combat style. A few levels of soulknife might be fun, too, providing you with a free off-hand weapon. Not in 3.5. The whip is now a melee weapon (and thus adds Str bonus to damage and can be power attacked). Whips do not provoke, but don't threaten.
jaelis 06-12-07, 02:49 PM	Whips do not provoke, but don't threaten. Perhaps you mistyped? Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
yonman 06-12-07, 04:00 PM	This isn't that big a deal, a Psychic Warrior Expanded to Huge size gets the same reach of 15' with a bigger damage if he uses a Large two-handed weapon which gets Expanded to Gargantuan size damage.
Skara 06-12-07, 04:19 PM	So? You can use Enlarge Person and you get the same thing. That's not the point. We're not using spells or psionics here, since the Fire Lash has kinda already been kicked out for being ranged. The point was talking about how Whirlwind Attack, with a adjacent+reach weapon gives you ridiculous amounts of attacks per round. Just a little fun with the rules.