Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cato 05-21-07, 12:43 AM	Looking for ways a rogue can keep someone flanked, and have the option available consistently through the day assuming lets say that he is the only melee char in a party with 3 mages. Someone mentioned summoning a small elemental with a feat 1/day (thats not what I am looking for) For example 1 solution would be a shadow double you can keep around all day or a cohort with some nifty spells, any better suggestions?
runestar 05-21-07, 01:03 AM	I suppose that if you have the adaptive flanker feat, you could flank with your mount.:P Otherwise, summon monster is probably your best bet. That or use improved invis or something to make the foe flat footed.:)
cato 05-21-07, 01:15 AM	I suppose that if you have the adaptive flanker feat, you could flank with your mount.:P Otherwise, summon monster is probably your best bet. That or use improved invis or something to make the foe flat footed.:) Can you give me the handbook on that one?, its not in the consolidated lists.
runestar 05-21-07, 03:35 AM	Adaptive flanker should be in the PHB2. It lets you designate an extra square to be treated as occupying for purposes of determining whether you are flanking or not, but you still must have another ally to fulfill the "need at least 2 people to flank" requirement. As to how you are supposed to construct a mounted rogue build however...:P
guru7892 05-21-07, 03:41 AM	ask a mage to take still spell and give them full plate with a sheild and a sword so they can wade into combat, or cast spells... its a really smart idea if you optimize that way. (but it's too stupid to get you called a power gamer)
cato 05-21-07, 09:18 AM	So with adaptive flanker, if lets say I am riding a worg, i can designate my own square as a flanking square and the worg can attack by itself while i ride it? If that is so, its an interesting idea, but its gonna be kinda hard to do that in dungeons or stealth on a mount :p the mage thing is just theory, i am just looking into ways to do this solo :p
HairyApe 05-21-07, 09:46 AM	If you are looking for SA damage, telling blow is another good feat to take. It adds sneak attack damage to criticals. Pretty good feat.
Fallenangel359 05-21-07, 09:47 AM	whats interesting is that the island of blades stance lets you flank assuming an ally is adjacent to you. Technically, a familiar is an adjacent ally :P
EvilVegan 05-21-07, 09:58 AM	Familiars don't threaten because they're too small. Plus to get that stance you have to take martial study, which is 2 feats, but probably well worth it, especially if you get a good maneuver. But a 1 level dip into swordsage would be worth it for the flanking.
runestar 05-21-07, 10:02 AM	So with adaptive flanker, if lets say I am riding a worg, i can designate my own square as a flanking square and the worg can attack by itself while i ride it? I am not sure what exactly you are trying to say here...:P Adaptive flanker's purpose is when you have 2 people who are not in a position to provide a flanking advantage. It just lets you designate a certain square and lets someone be treated as occupying that square (so as to trigger flanking condition). For example, lets say your rogue is on a riding horse and moves up to a orc barb. You can designate your mount as occupying the square opposite you, thus fulfilling the conditions for flanking.
Centauri 05-21-07, 10:30 AM	There simply shouldn't be an easy, reliable way to get sneak attack damage. The conditions set on it are what keep it balanced.
jaelis 05-21-07, 12:27 PM	Given your party, it seems like you'd be better off using magical buffs like blink or invisibility to get your SA damage. But if you want to flank, your best bet is the leadership feat.
GnomeBarbarian 05-21-07, 12:52 PM	You should look more into ways to make the opponent flat footed rather than ways to flank them. The invisble blade in Complete Warrior improves your feint ability so you can do it as a move action and then later as a swift ro free action I can't remember at the moment. Other things like skill tricks could work as well as the feat flick of the wrist. However most of this depends on you using a dagger. I however would recommend that if you are in a magecentric party and want to be dealing out xtra damage similiar to sneak attack I would say try out the scout for its scirmish((sp?)) ability. Complete Scoundrel has ways to improve this ability and mixing the rogue sneak attack with it as well.
Vrellum 05-21-07, 02:27 PM	I think the easiest ways (esp in your party) are to either be invisibile or convince the mages to summon some critters. Then you can flank with the critters.
Gorbeck 05-21-07, 02:43 PM	If you're not opposed to multi-classing then the Invisible Blade that GnomeBarbarian suggested is a great choice! If I remember correctly it's also only five levels so you still get fifteen levels of rogue. Besides that, you could take three levels of Shadow Dancer from the DMG. Not only does that give you the very useful Hide in Plain Sight but a third level Shadow Dancer gets to summon a shadow, permanently (like a familiar). You can use the shadow to flank and you don't have to constantly summon it.
Peregrine_Wolf 05-21-07, 04:38 PM	Deft Strike works well for catching them flatfooted. Since you have mages on your team, just have them haste you them you can use one action to spot against their armour and another to attack them adn get sneak attack damage added on. Also, if your a small sized character and take underfoot combat and Confound the Big Folk, you can get LOTS of SA. Deft Strike is in Complete Adventurer and the other two are in Races of the Wild.
Xan_Kriegor 05-21-07, 05:30 PM	If you are okay with using 2 feats for getting SA, you can get Combat Expertise and Improved Feint (both in the PHB) with some ranks in Bluff, and then use it to make your enemies flat-footed. It might just be my DM, but we have never used Sense Motive before (Mainly 'cuz we don't play that often, but we've done 10+ dungeons). So it depends on how you play, but your enemies might not have enough ranks in Sense Motive to match your Bluff.
tyrecian 05-21-07, 05:59 PM	well, bear in mind Xan that it is sense motive + base attack. Many creatures at higher levels will have a really high BA for their CR (dragons for instance). Still improved feint is a nice way. Someone mentioned invis, it is cumbersome (since it is a 20 UMD roll from wand, or a ring which is a standard action and 20k GP). If you have buffing wizzies in the party then koodos to you, but mostly they arent going to take a bunch of invis'es just to allow you one SA in a battle. In core there really is nothing that allows you to get in there without another to help you out, other than summon monsters and what i mentioned before. SM line can be cast from a wand too, with a 20 UMD check, but again it is a Standard action (maybe full round anyways from a wand, since the spell is full round) and you will have to be able to communicate with whatever you summon. Leadership is a good idea, but make sure that you have a tank build for that, because as a general rule (i know there are splat exceptions) the cohort is 2 levels down from you, and that can make em dead real fast. At higher levels, the higher your hide the better you will be at sniping, and that is a really nice way to get SA continually. THere is also a feat that takes the -20 penalty down to -10. There is also a feat that allows you to take a standard action to ready an attack with a bow (i think just ranged, cant remember) for someone to hit the opponent, and then you get 1 attack at them as though they were flat-footed. That allows one SA per round, so long as someone hits em in melee...
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-22-07, 12:00 AM	There simply shouldn't be an easy, reliable way to get sneak attack damage. The conditions set on it are what keep it balanced. Agreed. Melee combat needs primary melee characters. A 3 mage/1 rogue party is hosed.
runestar 05-22-07, 12:27 AM	Interesting setup, with potentially interesting tactics. I can see the 3 mages launching area affect spells into the fray, relying on the rogue's evasion to keep out of harm's way.
Nom 05-22-07, 12:57 AM	For example, lets say your rogue is on a riding horse and moves up to a orc barb. You can designate your mount as occupying the square opposite you, thus fulfilling the conditions for flanking.How do you figure that works. Adaptable flanker (PH2 pg 71,74) allows you to be treated as also occupying another square that you threaten for the purpose of calculating flanking bonuses. You can't change your mount's effective square, and you can only change your own to one that you can reach.
cato 05-22-07, 01:32 AM	Wow, so according to the adaptive flanker description I can flank anyone solo? "When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent." !! Sounds too good to be true!
runestar 05-22-07, 02:00 AM	To be honest, I do not quite remember the feat's exact wording (has been quite some time since I last saw it while browsing though the PHB2 at borders). I was going off the FAQ's ruling, which goes as follows... Can a character with the Adaptive Flanker feat (Player’s Handbook II, 73) and a spiked chain flank an enemy all by himself (since he can choose to count as occupying the square opposite the enemy as well as his own square)? No. This feat doesn’t let you get around the basic rule of flanking, which is that you need an ally to accomplish it—it just lets you pretend to occupy an extra space when figuring out if you’re actually flanking an enemy with your ally. Which means I misspoke in my earlier post. You designate yourself as occupying a square opposite to that which your mount is currently in.:embarrass
GhostStepper 05-22-07, 02:14 AM	The Adaptive Flanking trick was to use a spiked chain so you could threaten the square opposite a medium sized opponent and thus flank with yourself. The FAQ says you cant but the by RAW its possible. One trick would be to use the Island of Blades stance and have a psuedodragon cohort sit on your shoulder all day. Its tail has a reach of 5' so you both flank whenever you are adjacent something. Even better, pimp his riding skill and have him use you as a mount. If anyone tries to hit you he can make a ride check to make you unhittable.
starmitehokie 05-22-07, 09:05 AM	There is a wondorous item called the Bag of Tricks in the DMG. It comes in a couple flavors, but they all allow you to summon critters of some sort. I'm not exactly sure of the particulars of how it works, as I don't have my DMG handy atm, but I'm pretty sure it would be more favorable for a rogue to use than a wand or scroll of Summon Monster X. Best of luck.
Grogmir 05-22-07, 10:23 AM	I would beg one of the three ?:confused: ? wizards to play a ranger with the Disrupting strike feature from PHB2. Makes the Rogue a powerhouse!
Egres 05-22-07, 10:38 AM	You might want to check out the White Raven tactical feat in Tome of Battle. It let's you treat an opponent as if he was flanked for a minute (ten rounds).
BW0222 05-22-07, 11:01 AM	cato, Looking for ways a rogue can keep someone flanked, and have the option available consistently through the day assuming lets say that he is the only melee char in a party with 3 mages. Well, you need two to flank someone. Suggestings. Don't Flank Look at non-flanking ways to gain sneak attack. 1. Spells like blindness, glitter dust, color spray, etc. 2. Invisibility, improved invisibility, etc. 3. Darkness and some ability so that you can see in it. 4. Fog and other spells, which allow you to hide repeatedly. Although often slow. 5. Sleep, deep slumber, hold person, paralysation, etc. 6. Grappling spells. Evard's or certain hand spells for example. Get Someone to Flank 7. Have someone invest in conjuration and start summoning things. 8. Find some magical item which allows you to summon stuff. Figurines of wondrous power, elemental gems, a wand of summon monster II for your wizard (or UMD), horn of valhalla, etc. 9. Hire an NPC fighter, leadership, etc. 10. Shadow dancer and take a shadow. Someone taking improved familiar and say a wolf or something. 11. Dominates, confusion, etc. i.e. flank with a controlled bad guy. Honestly, with three wizards and a rogue, you must have some type of blocking stategy?
cato 05-22-07, 03:27 PM	Well ye most of those things I have thought already (save glitterdust) But I was thinking of a really hard scenario such as dealing heavy damage to some sort of lvl 22 mage/cleric, and if he plays his cards well its tricky One nice idea is try go get something like wand of non detection at CL 30+ :p (assuming I can find one) Then get the feat that lets me stagger someone, and use 2 light weapons like kusumi gari (from DMG) along with the make killer feat and a wand of dimensional anchor. These, coupled with some sort of charge /full attack feat or shadow pounce. But do be on the safe side I am researching for Min Maxed ways to consistently flank someone in case you get seen. Or are unable to deny the guy his dex bonus
kalstrand 05-22-07, 03:45 PM	Talk one of the Wizards into being a gish so he can help out on the frontlines.