Flat footed !!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flat footed !!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Real_iceman
02-28-07, 10:26 AM Can you tell me about actions that will render the oponent flat footed ? such as feats, skill tricks and stuff ( any sorce welcome,, exept tome of battle ):D
tarkin
02-28-07, 11:10 AM Do you really mean flat-footed, or are you just looking to Sneak Attack? You don't need to make them flat-footed to Sneak Attack them. There are lots of ways to deny their Dex, which lets you Sneak Attack.

But to make someone Flat-Footed, the easiest way I know of is to cast Grease spell.

They have to make a Balance check, and unless they have 5 or mroe ranks in the skill Balance, when you are Balancing, you are flat-footed.
mcnoo
02-28-07, 11:12 AM All you need is improved feint, truly the greatest boon to melee rogue.

Alternately, if you just want to sneak attack, lots of ranks of tumble so you can pass through the enemy's square and flank them.
Merestil Haye
02-28-07, 11:17 AM Frankly, there's very little that will render an opponent flat-footed. The most common way (although there may be one other) is to beat the opponent's initiative and/or catch him by surprise.

However, there are three parts to the condition of being flat-footed - being unable to take AoOs, being unable to take immediate actions and being denied your Dex bonus to AC. Most people looking for ways to make an opponent flat-footed are really looking for ways to deny an opponent their Dex bonus to AC. There are many more ways to do this. Some examples include Attack your opponent when he cannot see you.
Catch your opponent climbing.
Be under a Blink spell.
Immobilize your opponent.As Tarkin says, putting your opponent in a situation he has to balance does actually make him flat-footed. That's about the only way other than beating his initiative that I can think of.

ETA : Improved Feint does not make the target flat footed. Just in case the distinction is important.
Real_iceman
02-28-07, 11:22 AM All you need is improved feint, truly the greatest boon to melee rogue.

Alternately, if you just want to sneak attack, lots of ranks of tumble so you can pass through the enemy's square and flank them.

where can i find the rules on tumbling through an oponents square to make it loose its dex bonus ?
Merestil Haye
02-28-07, 11:29 AM where can i find the rules on tumbling through an oponents square to make it loose its dex bonus ?The rules for Tumbling are in the Tumble skill. But it does not make the opponent lose its Dex bonus to AC.

Flanking is another way to qualify for Sneak Attacks.
mostholy2
02-28-07, 01:40 PM The skill trick Acrobatic Backstab from Complete Scoundrel will allow you to get a single attack as flat-footed after a successful tumble through an opponent's square. However, the prereqs require 12 ranks of tumble, so you could not take this trick before 9th lvl (at which point you should have better ways of denying DEX.

Other ways not yet mentioned to standardly deny DEX is feinting in melee combat, sneaky shot from Master Thrower allows you to do a slight of hand check vs. your opponent's spot check to deny DEX for a ranged attack. There is also always sniping.
BW0222
02-28-07, 02:34 PM Folks,

Let's start with the definition of flat-footed...

"Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and can not make attacks of opportunity."

Blindness, stunning, invisibility, unaware of an opponent, etc. does not make someone flat-footed. However, such conditions would say that they are denied their deterity against attacks -- which allows sneak attack.

So... the only things which allow you to get someone 'flat-footed' are... surprising them or rolling higher on the initiative. Once they have gone, they can't be flat-footed again.

If you are asking for ways to deny them their dexterity bonus to AC...

* Flat footed
* Grappling
* Paralyized
* Running
* Unconcious
* Tied up and unable to move.
* Unaware of an attack (blind, invisible opponent, hiding opponent),
* etc.
Iarmeister
02-28-07, 02:40 PM Folks,

Let's start with the definition of flat-footed...

"Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and can not make attacks of opportunity."

Blindness, stunning, invisibility, unaware of an opponent, etc. does not make someone flat-footed. However, such conditions would say that they are denied their deterity against attacks -- which allows sneak attack.

So... the only things which allow you to get someone 'flat-footed' are... surprising them or rolling higher on the initiative. Once they have gone, they can't be flat-footed again.

If you are asking for ways to deny them their dexterity bonus to AC...

* Flat footed
* Grappling
* Paralyized
* Running
* Unconcious
* Tied up and unable to move.
* Unaware of an attack (blind, invisible opponent, hiding opponent),
* etc.

QFT!

Thank you for posting this...I think there are more than a few players out there who are under the impression that any time you are denied your dex bonus to AC you are considered flat-footed, which is certainly not the case.

I was one such person up until a month ago...
Real_iceman
02-28-07, 02:40 PM thanx, i appreciate the advises.... now i am of to make fun of the cleric with touch of 5 :D :D :D
FrostHammer
02-28-07, 02:45 PM I'd like for ways to reliably make enemies flatfooted :( Or else Catfolk pounce is only once an encounter.
tarkin
02-28-07, 03:51 PM The Grease trick I wrote about still works. Read the Balance skill. The rest of the thigns mentioned here tend to be dex removers, not Flat-foot makers.
mostholy2
02-28-07, 04:16 PM So... the only things which allow you to get someone 'flat-footed' are... surprising them or rolling higher on the initiative. Once they have gone, they can't be flat-footed again.I must disagree with the above statement. There are a number of things outside of winning initiative or surprise round actions that make an opponent "flat-footed" (as opposed to denied DEX), as specified in the description description of the abilities.

The aforementioned skill trick Acrobatic Backstab states that "...you can treat that enemy as flat-footed against the next melee attack you make against it on your current turn."

A number of the ToB maneuvers also specifically describe the opponent as being "flat-footed" to the attack or becoming flat-footed as a result of the attack. Sapphire Nightmare Blade states that "...if your Concentration check succeeds, the target is flat footed against your attack..." In addition, Strike of the Broken Shield states "...the target must make a reflex save (DC14 + you STR mod) or become flat-footed until the start of his next turn.

The maneuvers in ToB specifically state that your opponent becomes flat-footed against your attacks. I believe that this mechanic was intentionally stated for the manuevers to synergize with the warblade's battle cunning class ability which gives the warblade an insight bonus to melee damage against opponents who are flanked or flat-footed.
Iarmeister
02-28-07, 05:19 PM I must disagree with the above statement. There are a number of things outside of winning initiative or surprise round actions that make an opponent "flat-footed" (as opposed to denied DEX), as specified in the description description of the abilities.

The aforementioned skill trick Acrobatic Backstab states that "...you can treat that enemy as flat-footed against the next melee attack you make against it on your current turn."

A number of the ToB maneuvers also specifically describe the opponent as being "flat-footed" to the attack or becoming flat-footed as a result of the attack. Sapphire Nightmare Blade states that "...if your Concentration check succeeds, the target is flat footed against your attack..." In addition, Strike of the Broken Shield states "...the target must make a reflex save (DC14 + you STR mod) or become flat-footed until the start of his next turn.

The maneuvers in ToB specifically state that your opponent becomes flat-footed against your attacks. I believe that this mechanic was intentionally stated for the manuevers to synergize with the warblade's battle cunning class ability which gives the warblade an insight bonus to melee damage against opponents who are flanked or flat-footed.

Actually, you are correct in this. A lot of maneuvers from ToB have secondary conditions that leave MA's opponent's Flat-Footed.

But, for those groups not using ToB...??

The list of things a character can do that leaves an opponent specifically "flat-footed"...not as large as I first thought. Lot more ways that "deny your opponent their Dex bonus (if any) to AC", but that's not necessarily "flat-footed", although I admit that for purposes of SA and SS damage...it is very nearly the same thing (less so for SS).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Real_iceman 02-28-07, 10:26 AM	Can you tell me about actions that will render the oponent flat footed ? such as feats, skill tricks and stuff ( any sorce welcome,, exept tome of battle ):D
tarkin 02-28-07, 11:10 AM	Do you really mean flat-footed, or are you just looking to Sneak Attack? You don't need to make them flat-footed to Sneak Attack them. There are lots of ways to deny their Dex, which lets you Sneak Attack. But to make someone Flat-Footed, the easiest way I know of is to cast Grease spell. They have to make a Balance check, and unless they have 5 or mroe ranks in the skill Balance, when you are Balancing, you are flat-footed.
mcnoo 02-28-07, 11:12 AM	All you need is improved feint, truly the greatest boon to melee rogue. Alternately, if you just want to sneak attack, lots of ranks of tumble so you can pass through the enemy's square and flank them.
Merestil Haye 02-28-07, 11:17 AM	Frankly, there's very little that will render an opponent flat-footed. The most common way (although there may be one other) is to beat the opponent's initiative and/or catch him by surprise. However, there are three parts to the condition of being flat-footed - being unable to take AoOs, being unable to take immediate actions and being denied your Dex bonus to AC. Most people looking for ways to make an opponent flat-footed are really looking for ways to deny an opponent their Dex bonus to AC. There are many more ways to do this. Some examples include Attack your opponent when he cannot see you. Catch your opponent climbing. Be under a Blink spell. Immobilize your opponent.As Tarkin says, putting your opponent in a situation he has to balance does actually make him flat-footed. That's about the only way other than beating his initiative that I can think of. ETA : Improved Feint does not make the target flat footed. Just in case the distinction is important.
Real_iceman 02-28-07, 11:22 AM	All you need is improved feint, truly the greatest boon to melee rogue. Alternately, if you just want to sneak attack, lots of ranks of tumble so you can pass through the enemy's square and flank them. where can i find the rules on tumbling through an oponents square to make it loose its dex bonus ?
Merestil Haye 02-28-07, 11:29 AM	where can i find the rules on tumbling through an oponents square to make it loose its dex bonus ?The rules for Tumbling are in the Tumble skill. But it does not make the opponent lose its Dex bonus to AC. Flanking is another way to qualify for Sneak Attacks.
mostholy2 02-28-07, 01:40 PM	The skill trick Acrobatic Backstab from Complete Scoundrel will allow you to get a single attack as flat-footed after a successful tumble through an opponent's square. However, the prereqs require 12 ranks of tumble, so you could not take this trick before 9th lvl (at which point you should have better ways of denying DEX. Other ways not yet mentioned to standardly deny DEX is feinting in melee combat, sneaky shot from Master Thrower allows you to do a slight of hand check vs. your opponent's spot check to deny DEX for a ranged attack. There is also always sniping.
BW0222 02-28-07, 02:34 PM	Folks, Let's start with the definition of flat-footed... "Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and can not make attacks of opportunity." Blindness, stunning, invisibility, unaware of an opponent, etc. does not make someone flat-footed. However, such conditions would say that they are denied their deterity against attacks -- which allows sneak attack. So... the only things which allow you to get someone 'flat-footed' are... surprising them or rolling higher on the initiative. Once they have gone, they can't be flat-footed again. If you are asking for ways to deny them their dexterity bonus to AC... * Flat footed * Grappling * Paralyized * Running * Unconcious * Tied up and unable to move. * Unaware of an attack (blind, invisible opponent, hiding opponent), * etc.
Iarmeister 02-28-07, 02:40 PM	Folks, Let's start with the definition of flat-footed... "Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and can not make attacks of opportunity." Blindness, stunning, invisibility, unaware of an opponent, etc. does not make someone flat-footed. However, such conditions would say that they are denied their deterity against attacks -- which allows sneak attack. So... the only things which allow you to get someone 'flat-footed' are... surprising them or rolling higher on the initiative. Once they have gone, they can't be flat-footed again. If you are asking for ways to deny them their dexterity bonus to AC... * Flat footed * Grappling * Paralyized * Running * Unconcious * Tied up and unable to move. * Unaware of an attack (blind, invisible opponent, hiding opponent), * etc. QFT! Thank you for posting this...I think there are more than a few players out there who are under the impression that any time you are denied your dex bonus to AC you are considered flat-footed, which is certainly not the case. I was one such person up until a month ago...
Real_iceman 02-28-07, 02:40 PM	thanx, i appreciate the advises.... now i am of to make fun of the cleric with touch of 5 :D :D :D
FrostHammer 02-28-07, 02:45 PM	I'd like for ways to reliably make enemies flatfooted :( Or else Catfolk pounce is only once an encounter.
tarkin 02-28-07, 03:51 PM	The Grease trick I wrote about still works. Read the Balance skill. The rest of the thigns mentioned here tend to be dex removers, not Flat-foot makers.
mostholy2 02-28-07, 04:16 PM	So... the only things which allow you to get someone 'flat-footed' are... surprising them or rolling higher on the initiative. Once they have gone, they can't be flat-footed again.I must disagree with the above statement. There are a number of things outside of winning initiative or surprise round actions that make an opponent "flat-footed" (as opposed to denied DEX), as specified in the description description of the abilities. The aforementioned skill trick Acrobatic Backstab states that "...you can treat that enemy as flat-footed against the next melee attack you make against it on your current turn." A number of the ToB maneuvers also specifically describe the opponent as being "flat-footed" to the attack or becoming flat-footed as a result of the attack. Sapphire Nightmare Blade states that "...if your Concentration check succeeds, the target is flat footed against your attack..." In addition, Strike of the Broken Shield states "...the target must make a reflex save (DC14 + you STR mod) or become flat-footed until the start of his next turn. The maneuvers in ToB specifically state that your opponent becomes flat-footed against your attacks. I believe that this mechanic was intentionally stated for the manuevers to synergize with the warblade's battle cunning class ability which gives the warblade an insight bonus to melee damage against opponents who are flanked or flat-footed.
Iarmeister 02-28-07, 05:19 PM	I must disagree with the above statement. There are a number of things outside of winning initiative or surprise round actions that make an opponent "flat-footed" (as opposed to denied DEX), as specified in the description description of the abilities. The aforementioned skill trick Acrobatic Backstab states that "...you can treat that enemy as flat-footed against the next melee attack you make against it on your current turn." A number of the ToB maneuvers also specifically describe the opponent as being "flat-footed" to the attack or becoming flat-footed as a result of the attack. Sapphire Nightmare Blade states that "...if your Concentration check succeeds, the target is flat footed against your attack..." In addition, Strike of the Broken Shield states "...the target must make a reflex save (DC14 + you STR mod) or become flat-footed until the start of his next turn. The maneuvers in ToB specifically state that your opponent becomes flat-footed against your attacks. I believe that this mechanic was intentionally stated for the manuevers to synergize with the warblade's battle cunning class ability which gives the warblade an insight bonus to melee damage against opponents who are flanked or flat-footed. Actually, you are correct in this. A lot of maneuvers from ToB have secondary conditions that leave MA's opponent's Flat-Footed. But, for those groups not using ToB...?? The list of things a character can do that leaves an opponent specifically "flat-footed"...not as large as I first thought. Lot more ways that "deny your opponent their Dex bonus (if any) to AC", but that's not necessarily "flat-footed", although I admit that for purposes of SA and SS damage...it is very nearly the same thing (less so for SS).