flick of the wrist [Archive] - Wizards Community

flick of the wrist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StealthElite
06-10-07, 10:10 AM Flick of the Wrist:

Prereq"
Dexterity 17
Quick Draw
Sleight of Hand: 5 ranks

States: If you draw a Light weapon and attack with it in the same round, your opponent is Flat-Footed for the first
attack.
This ability can only be used once per round and only once per opponent in a given battle.

So in reading this i could draw shurikens as a free action let them all fly and get my ss dmg every round?

or since i have two weapon fighting draw one sword attack and next round draw my second sword and gain my S.S. dmg once again.

Is there something that I am missing?

There has to be something that I'm reading wrong.

This skill is mean as hell with rouges/ninjas that use quick draw and ranged throwing weapons.
Narthon
06-10-07, 10:14 AM It only works once per opponent per round. It really isn't broken.
Dheran
06-11-07, 10:20 AM Once for any given opponent.

Once per round.

Only light weapons (so your sword has to be short).

It's a pretty wimpy feat. The Hidden Blade skill trick does almost the same thing.
immortal_fighter
06-13-07, 01:52 PM Hidden blade is better if you know what to combo it with
Loki5654
06-13-07, 01:57 PM I don't have my book with me ATM, but I'm 90% certain Flick of the Wrist only applies to melee attacks.
madbliza
06-13-07, 04:15 PM Unfortunately, when dealing with ranged weapons you can only apply your sneak attack damage once. Regardles of how many missiles you throw or fire.

Since you can only use it once a round, that sword trick would only work if you drew your sword and attacked someone and then drew your second sword and attacked someone else. Basically, you can only use the ability once per person, not once per weapon.

Flick of the wrist does apply to melee weapons as well, provided the melee weapon is considered to be light.

Flick of the Wrist is pretty good, for low levels. Once you increase ranks in Sleight of Hand you can do the same thing with just the skill, making the feat useless however, using Flick of the Wrist to cut them with sneak damage and then use your skill, Sleight of Hand, to do it again. Of course, combine with Improved Feint, you can easily make people wish they were fighting someone else.
TheDarkWolf
06-22-07, 12:21 AM Actually Flick of the Wrist is only for Melee weapons. I always think about taking it for my rogues btu then end up taking it out to give room later. I find it fun but not worth the wasted spot of quick draw wich is one of the worst feats out there unless you need it for something like.. flick of the wrist. in wich case still isnt really worth it. IMO
Meep326
06-22-07, 02:54 AM Unfortunately, when dealing with ranged weapons you can only apply your sneak attack damage once. Regardles of how many missiles you throw or fire.
You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once.
madbliza
06-22-07, 10:53 AM You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once.
Yeah. I figured that shortly after posting, guess I should stop reading when tired. Thanks for the reminder.
risner
06-22-07, 03:25 PM Also a shuriken isn't a light weapon.
The_Unseen_Illusion
06-25-07, 06:06 AM You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once.

You can only use it once per round
Frugal
06-25-07, 08:21 AM You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once.

Actually, if you're hiding then you're revealed after the first attack unless you make a hide check at -20 to remain hidden (see the sniping rules under the hide skill). So if you're hiding, only your 1st shot gives sneak attack damage unless you can remain hidden.
Angerland
06-25-07, 10:35 AM there are two skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel that do nearly the identical thing at the cost of skill points rather than feats....since we are talking about Rogue types taking this, why not spend some skill ponts for the tricks over a precious feat.
Rebel581
06-25-07, 11:59 AM Actually, if you're hiding then you're revealed after the first attack unless you make a hide check at -20 to remain hidden (see the sniping rules under the hide skill). So if you're hiding, only your 1st shot gives sneak attack damage unless you can remain hidden.

Not if all of the shots are done in the same round. The opponent is still considered flat-footed for every attack and gets the SS bonus to damage.
Frugal
06-25-07, 12:46 PM Not if all of the shots are done in the same round. The opponent is still considered flat-footed for every attack and gets the SS bonus to damage.

No, it's the same way as invisibility (although not greater invisibility), once you attack you've revealed yourself the conditions for sneak attack no longer apply (the opponent is aware of you and thus is no longer denied his DEX bonus to AC).
Dnarris
06-25-07, 01:06 PM It works like this.

If you surprise your opponent you get a surprised round.

In the surprise round you cannot take full-attacks.

You get one standard action. As long as you weren't surprised as well.

You can make an attack and get your sneak attack damage. Then the intial round of combat starts.

If you win initiative you can then attack again and still get your sneak attack bonus damage since the creature is still flat-footed until it's turn.

I have found no information to conclude that you only get 1 sneak attack per round per creature.
Dnarris
06-25-07, 01:07 PM No, it's the same way as invisibility (although not greater invisibility), once you attack you've revealed yourself the conditions for sneak attack no longer apply (the opponent is aware of you and thus is no longer denied his DEX bonus to AC).

And no...if a creature is suprised it cannot become aware of a threat to itself until its initiative comes up. This means the the subject is denied its dexterity bonus until that point unless it has some special feat or ability to do so.
Frugal
06-25-07, 01:53 PM I have found no information to conclude that you only get 1 sneak attack per round per creature.

No, you get it as long as the requirements are met, which can, theoretically, be an infinite number of attacks.

And no...if a creature is suprised it cannot become aware of a threat to itself until its initiative comes up. This means the the subject is denied its dexterity bonus until that point unless it has some special feat or ability to do so.

Ah, but we weren't necessarily talking about surprise. The post I replied to was in reference to rapid shot, which uses the full attack action, which means you can't use it in a surprise round.

Now, if the PC was hiding and surprised the opponent he'd get sneak attack (assuming he's within 30'), if he subsequently wins initiative he could use rapid shot and get sneak attack with every shot against that opponent (as he's still flat-footed). His opponent is now aware of the PC and the PC has used up his actions so he can't hide.

What I was saying doesn't work is if you hide during combat, you can fire a shot off and get sneak attack from that first shot, but then your opponent is aware of you so any further shots as part of that full attack action do not qualify for sneak attack. You could hide, use manyshot (a standard action and single attack roll, but only gain sneak attack on 1 attack), and then use your move action to hide as per the sniping rules.
Dnarris
06-25-07, 04:50 PM No, you get it as long as the requirements are met, which can, theoretically, be an infinite number of attacks.

Ah, but we weren't necessarily talking about surprise. The post I replied to was in reference to rapid shot, which uses the full attack action, which means you can't use it in a surprise round.

Now, if the PC was hiding and surprised the opponent he'd get sneak attack (assuming he's within 30'), if he subsequently wins initiative he could use rapid shot and get sneak attack with every shot against that opponent (as he's still flat-footed). His opponent is now aware of the PC and the PC has used up his actions so he can't hide.

What I was saying doesn't work is if you hide during combat, you can fire a shot off and get sneak attack from that first shot, but then your opponent is aware of you so any further shots as part of that full attack action do not qualify for sneak attack. You could hide, use manyshot (a standard action and single attack roll, but only gain sneak attack on 1 attack), and then use your move action to hide as per the sniping rules.

Ok, I don't quite get how you're telling me no on this first part...and then saying the samething I just said unless you just didn't understand what I posted.

I stated I had "NOT" found any information that would conclude you only get one sneak attack per creature per round.

And no...you still don't have to make a hiding check to deal sneak attack damage with a ranged weapon if the target has lost it's dex bonus. If a target is flat-footed, balancing, or climbing, or anything else that might cause it to lose its dex bonus every single shot the player makes is going to be a sneak attack if they are within the 30'.

The only that has mentioned hiding in combat for the purposes of sniping is you. So nobody is arguing the point of sniping with you. I agree with the sniping rules.

And I'll point out that meep never mentioned that he was trying to hide during combat or trying to use rapid reload during a suprise round...you kind of just assumed that information.

And if for some reason you remained in hiding until a later point in the combat and then suddenly revealed yourself in combat and attacked a target. That target will remain flat-footed to you until its intiative. I've never read any rules anywhere about creatures gaining automatic awarness in D&D when it wasn't their turn.

And the person that stated that no matter how many thrown weapons or missle weapon you fire you only get 1 sneak attack is partially correct.

If you throw more than one weapon or fire more than one missle weapon during a "single" attack you only count sneak attack damage for the first one that hits.

If you are allowed to throw two shuriken with one attack or fire two arrows with one attack, sneak attack damage only applies to one of those thrown or fired weapons.
Frugal
06-25-07, 06:35 PM Ok, I don't quite get how you're telling me no on this first part...and then saying the samething I just said unless you just didn't understand what I posted.

Sorry, meant to be, "no, you're right." Sorry about the confusion there.

And no...you still don't have to make a hiding check to deal sneak attack damage with a ranged weapon if the target has lost it's dex bonus. If a target is flat-footed, balancing, or climbing, or anything else that might cause it to lose its dex bonus every single shot the player makes is going to be a sneak attack if they are within the 30'.

Didn't say you did. If you meet the prerequisites, which for a ranged weapon is going to be that the target is denied his DEX bonus to AC (barring the possibility of feats adding other methods of course) then every attack qualifies for sneak attack.

And I'll point out that meep never mentioned that he was trying to hide during combat or trying to use rapid reload during a suprise round...you kind of just assumed that information.

Actually, I incorrectly said rapid shot, but rapid reload still applies to the same thing, you can't use it during a surprise round (since you can't full attack, granted you could reload and be ready to shoot next round). If the target's flat-footed, definitely applies for all shots, no argument there.

And if for some reason you remained in hiding until a later point in the combat and then suddenly revealed yourself in combat and attacked a target. That target will remain flat-footed to you until its intiative. I've never read any rules anywhere about creatures gaining automatic awarness in D&D when it wasn't their turn.

Works the same way as invisibility does. Check the Rules of the Game All About Sneak Attacks pt. 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a)

Perhaps the most common form of total concealment is the invisibility spell. A regular invisibility effect is broken when you attack. If you begin your turn under such an effect and you're making multiple attacks, you'll be invisible only for the first attack and your opponent will be denied Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against that first attack.

And the person that stated that no matter how many thrown weapons or missle weapon you fire you only get 1 sneak attack is partially correct.

If you throw more than one weapon or fire more than one missle weapon during a "single" attack you only count sneak attack damage for the first one that hits.

If you are allowed to throw two shuriken with one attack or fire two arrows with one attack, sneak attack damage only applies to one of those thrown or fired weapons.

Agreed, it's the standard volley rules, if you're getting several attacks with a single attack roll (like manyshot) then you only apply "precision damage" (sneak attack, crits, etc) to one of the shots.
Dnarris
06-25-07, 09:45 PM Well then I guess we see eye to eye on most things.

I'll concede that the all about sneak attacks part II does explain concealment and sneak attacks in combat pretty well.
Frugal
06-25-07, 10:00 PM Well then I guess we see eye to eye on most things.

I'll concede that the all about sneak attacks part II does explain concealment and sneak attacks in combat pretty well.

Cool, I should have been clearer that all I was disagreeing on was the statement that if you're hidden, all of your attacks qualify for sneak attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StealthElite 06-10-07, 10:10 AM	Flick of the Wrist: Prereq" Dexterity 17 Quick Draw Sleight of Hand: 5 ranks States: If you draw a Light weapon and attack with it in the same round, your opponent is Flat-Footed for the first attack. This ability can only be used once per round and only once per opponent in a given battle. So in reading this i could draw shurikens as a free action let them all fly and get my ss dmg every round? or since i have two weapon fighting draw one sword attack and next round draw my second sword and gain my S.S. dmg once again. Is there something that I am missing? There has to be something that I'm reading wrong. This skill is mean as hell with rouges/ninjas that use quick draw and ranged throwing weapons.
Narthon 06-10-07, 10:14 AM	It only works once per opponent per round. It really isn't broken.
Dheran 06-11-07, 10:20 AM	Once for any given opponent. Once per round. Only light weapons (so your sword has to be short). It's a pretty wimpy feat. The Hidden Blade skill trick does almost the same thing.
immortal_fighter 06-13-07, 01:52 PM	Hidden blade is better if you know what to combo it with
Loki5654 06-13-07, 01:57 PM	I don't have my book with me ATM, but I'm 90% certain Flick of the Wrist only applies to melee attacks.
madbliza 06-13-07, 04:15 PM	Unfortunately, when dealing with ranged weapons you can only apply your sneak attack damage once. Regardles of how many missiles you throw or fire. Since you can only use it once a round, that sword trick would only work if you drew your sword and attacked someone and then drew your second sword and attacked someone else. Basically, you can only use the ability once per person, not once per weapon. Flick of the wrist does apply to melee weapons as well, provided the melee weapon is considered to be light. Flick of the Wrist is pretty good, for low levels. Once you increase ranks in Sleight of Hand you can do the same thing with just the skill, making the feat useless however, using Flick of the Wrist to cut them with sneak damage and then use your skill, Sleight of Hand, to do it again. Of course, combine with Improved Feint, you can easily make people wish they were fighting someone else.
TheDarkWolf 06-22-07, 12:21 AM	Actually Flick of the Wrist is only for Melee weapons. I always think about taking it for my rogues btu then end up taking it out to give room later. I find it fun but not worth the wasted spot of quick draw wich is one of the worst feats out there unless you need it for something like.. flick of the wrist. in wich case still isnt really worth it. IMO
Meep326 06-22-07, 02:54 AM	Unfortunately, when dealing with ranged weapons you can only apply your sneak attack damage once. Regardles of how many missiles you throw or fire. You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once.
madbliza 06-22-07, 10:53 AM	You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once. Yeah. I figured that shortly after posting, guess I should stop reading when tired. Thanks for the reminder.
risner 06-22-07, 03:25 PM	Also a shuriken isn't a light weapon.
The_Unseen_Illusion 06-25-07, 06:06 AM	You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once. You can only use it once per round
Frugal 06-25-07, 08:21 AM	You my friend are wrong, it applies to every attack that qualifies for it, so you are hiding then you fire your light crossbow with which you have rapid reload, you get your damage for each shot. It is a common house rule that you only get it once. Actually, if you're hiding then you're revealed after the first attack unless you make a hide check at -20 to remain hidden (see the sniping rules under the hide skill). So if you're hiding, only your 1st shot gives sneak attack damage unless you can remain hidden.
Angerland 06-25-07, 10:35 AM	there are two skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel that do nearly the identical thing at the cost of skill points rather than feats....since we are talking about Rogue types taking this, why not spend some skill ponts for the tricks over a precious feat.
Rebel581 06-25-07, 11:59 AM	Actually, if you're hiding then you're revealed after the first attack unless you make a hide check at -20 to remain hidden (see the sniping rules under the hide skill). So if you're hiding, only your 1st shot gives sneak attack damage unless you can remain hidden. Not if all of the shots are done in the same round. The opponent is still considered flat-footed for every attack and gets the SS bonus to damage.
Frugal 06-25-07, 12:46 PM	Not if all of the shots are done in the same round. The opponent is still considered flat-footed for every attack and gets the SS bonus to damage. No, it's the same way as invisibility (although not greater invisibility), once you attack you've revealed yourself the conditions for sneak attack no longer apply (the opponent is aware of you and thus is no longer denied his DEX bonus to AC).
Dnarris 06-25-07, 01:06 PM	It works like this. If you surprise your opponent you get a surprised round. In the surprise round you cannot take full-attacks. You get one standard action. As long as you weren't surprised as well. You can make an attack and get your sneak attack damage. Then the intial round of combat starts. If you win initiative you can then attack again and still get your sneak attack bonus damage since the creature is still flat-footed until it's turn. I have found no information to conclude that you only get 1 sneak attack per round per creature.
Dnarris 06-25-07, 01:07 PM	No, it's the same way as invisibility (although not greater invisibility), once you attack you've revealed yourself the conditions for sneak attack no longer apply (the opponent is aware of you and thus is no longer denied his DEX bonus to AC). And no...if a creature is suprised it cannot become aware of a threat to itself until its initiative comes up. This means the the subject is denied its dexterity bonus until that point unless it has some special feat or ability to do so.
Frugal 06-25-07, 01:53 PM	I have found no information to conclude that you only get 1 sneak attack per round per creature. No, you get it as long as the requirements are met, which can, theoretically, be an infinite number of attacks. And no...if a creature is suprised it cannot become aware of a threat to itself until its initiative comes up. This means the the subject is denied its dexterity bonus until that point unless it has some special feat or ability to do so. Ah, but we weren't necessarily talking about surprise. The post I replied to was in reference to rapid shot, which uses the full attack action, which means you can't use it in a surprise round. Now, if the PC was hiding and surprised the opponent he'd get sneak attack (assuming he's within 30'), if he subsequently wins initiative he could use rapid shot and get sneak attack with every shot against that opponent (as he's still flat-footed). His opponent is now aware of the PC and the PC has used up his actions so he can't hide. What I was saying doesn't work is if you hide during combat, you can fire a shot off and get sneak attack from that first shot, but then your opponent is aware of you so any further shots as part of that full attack action do not qualify for sneak attack. You could hide, use manyshot (a standard action and single attack roll, but only gain sneak attack on 1 attack), and then use your move action to hide as per the sniping rules.
Dnarris 06-25-07, 04:50 PM	No, you get it as long as the requirements are met, which can, theoretically, be an infinite number of attacks. Ah, but we weren't necessarily talking about surprise. The post I replied to was in reference to rapid shot, which uses the full attack action, which means you can't use it in a surprise round. Now, if the PC was hiding and surprised the opponent he'd get sneak attack (assuming he's within 30'), if he subsequently wins initiative he could use rapid shot and get sneak attack with every shot against that opponent (as he's still flat-footed). His opponent is now aware of the PC and the PC has used up his actions so he can't hide. What I was saying doesn't work is if you hide during combat, you can fire a shot off and get sneak attack from that first shot, but then your opponent is aware of you so any further shots as part of that full attack action do not qualify for sneak attack. You could hide, use manyshot (a standard action and single attack roll, but only gain sneak attack on 1 attack), and then use your move action to hide as per the sniping rules. Ok, I don't quite get how you're telling me no on this first part...and then saying the samething I just said unless you just didn't understand what I posted. I stated I had "NOT" found any information that would conclude you only get one sneak attack per creature per round. And no...you still don't have to make a hiding check to deal sneak attack damage with a ranged weapon if the target has lost it's dex bonus. If a target is flat-footed, balancing, or climbing, or anything else that might cause it to lose its dex bonus every single shot the player makes is going to be a sneak attack if they are within the 30'. The only that has mentioned hiding in combat for the purposes of sniping is you. So nobody is arguing the point of sniping with you. I agree with the sniping rules. And I'll point out that meep never mentioned that he was trying to hide during combat or trying to use rapid reload during a suprise round...you kind of just assumed that information. And if for some reason you remained in hiding until a later point in the combat and then suddenly revealed yourself in combat and attacked a target. That target will remain flat-footed to you until its intiative. I've never read any rules anywhere about creatures gaining automatic awarness in D&D when it wasn't their turn. And the person that stated that no matter how many thrown weapons or missle weapon you fire you only get 1 sneak attack is partially correct. If you throw more than one weapon or fire more than one missle weapon during a "single" attack you only count sneak attack damage for the first one that hits. If you are allowed to throw two shuriken with one attack or fire two arrows with one attack, sneak attack damage only applies to one of those thrown or fired weapons.
Frugal 06-25-07, 06:35 PM	Ok, I don't quite get how you're telling me no on this first part...and then saying the samething I just said unless you just didn't understand what I posted. Sorry, meant to be, "no, you're right." Sorry about the confusion there. And no...you still don't have to make a hiding check to deal sneak attack damage with a ranged weapon if the target has lost it's dex bonus. If a target is flat-footed, balancing, or climbing, or anything else that might cause it to lose its dex bonus every single shot the player makes is going to be a sneak attack if they are within the 30'. Didn't say you did. If you meet the prerequisites, which for a ranged weapon is going to be that the target is denied his DEX bonus to AC (barring the possibility of feats adding other methods of course) then every attack qualifies for sneak attack. And I'll point out that meep never mentioned that he was trying to hide during combat or trying to use rapid reload during a suprise round...you kind of just assumed that information. Actually, I incorrectly said rapid shot, but rapid reload still applies to the same thing, you can't use it during a surprise round (since you can't full attack, granted you could reload and be ready to shoot next round). If the target's flat-footed, definitely applies for all shots, no argument there. And if for some reason you remained in hiding until a later point in the combat and then suddenly revealed yourself in combat and attacked a target. That target will remain flat-footed to you until its intiative. I've never read any rules anywhere about creatures gaining automatic awarness in D&D when it wasn't their turn. Works the same way as invisibility does. Check the Rules of the Game All About Sneak Attacks pt. 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a) Perhaps the most common form of total concealment is the invisibility spell. A regular invisibility effect is broken when you attack. If you begin your turn under such an effect and you're making multiple attacks, you'll be invisible only for the first attack and your opponent will be denied Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against that first attack. And the person that stated that no matter how many thrown weapons or missle weapon you fire you only get 1 sneak attack is partially correct. If you throw more than one weapon or fire more than one missle weapon during a "single" attack you only count sneak attack damage for the first one that hits. If you are allowed to throw two shuriken with one attack or fire two arrows with one attack, sneak attack damage only applies to one of those thrown or fired weapons. Agreed, it's the standard volley rules, if you're getting several attacks with a single attack roll (like manyshot) then you only apply "precision damage" (sneak attack, crits, etc) to one of the shots.
Dnarris 06-25-07, 09:45 PM	Well then I guess we see eye to eye on most things. I'll concede that the all about sneak attacks part II does explain concealment and sneak attacks in combat pretty well.
Frugal 06-25-07, 10:00 PM	Well then I guess we see eye to eye on most things. I'll concede that the all about sneak attacks part II does explain concealment and sneak attacks in combat pretty well. Cool, I should have been clearer that all I was disagreeing on was the statement that if you're hidden, all of your attacks qualify for sneak attack.