Post/Author/DateTime	Post
drunkman 12-30-07, 08:46 PM	Ok, so here's the issue that involves the monk's flurry of blows ability and natural attacks. Is it possible to combine natural attacks and a flurry of blows (I know you can't get an extra natural attack this way, but you might get an extra unarmed attack (with the flurry of blows of course), plus some natural attacks with it). Confused? It's hard to explain my situation. Let me explain it with an example using the lizardfolk (I wouldn't personally choose a lizardfolk monk as a PC, but I'm just using the lizardfolk as an example). *The statistics come from the (first) monster manual (p169) lizardfolk statistics, with the first level of the monk class added. **changes besides that class level made were the weapon focus (unarmed strike) feat added from acquiring its third hit dice and improved grapple added from the monk bonus feat, plus balance and jump going up by 3 and swim going up by 5 because the sheild was taken away, getting rid of the armor check penalties and one point of skill rank being added to each. Saves were increased each by 2 frommonk levels. Lizzy: NPC female Lizardfolk mnk 1; CR: 2 (ECL3); LN medium humanoid (reptilian); HD: 3 (16/16hp); init: +0; spd: 30ft; AC: 15 (T10, FF15); BAB/Grp: +1/+6; Atk: unarmed strike +3 melee (1d6+1) OR javelin +1 ranged (1d6+1); Full Atk: unarmed strike +3 melee (1d6+1) and claw +0 melee (1d4) and bite +0 melee (1d4) OR unarmed strike +1/+1 melee (1d6+1) and claw -2 melee (1d4) and bite -2 melee (1d4) OR javelin +1 ranged (1d6+1); SA: flurry of blows, unarmed strike (1d6); SQ: hold breath, AC bonus +0; SV: fort: +3, ref: +5, will: +2; AB: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 10. Skills&Feats: balance** +7, jump +8, swim** +7, multiattack, weapon focus (unarmed strike)**, improved grapple** (B) Equipment: 10 javelins, 2 gp, 5 sp See what's in red. Well, can a monk do that? Which is while I use my flurry of blows (giving me that extra unarmed strike), I can also use my natural attcks (the secondary claw and bite attack given in the example). As for my interpritation of the rules, I say I can't (though I wished I can), because in the flurry of blows class feature, it says (p40, player's handbook), "When using a flurry of blows, a monk may only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons (kama, nunchaka, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)" and (p41, same book), "The monk can't use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as a part of a flurry of blows". Now, Natural attacks do not fit the catagory of special monk weapons, definitely, but I think whether a natural attack would be considered an unarmed attack is debatable, (though I strongly think natural attacks are NOT considered unarmed attacks if I read the rules right). I want to hear your take, whoever's reading this.
blade265 12-30-07, 10:13 PM	An unarmed strike is not a natural weapon and a natural weapon is not an unarmed strike. Let see now, a 1st level monk can make 1 unarmed strike per round then can make your natural weapon attack. a level 8 monk would make 2 unarmed strikes then your natural weapons. As for Flurry that may be a problem as there are 2 groups, 1 says yes, the other says no and I don't know if it has been worked out yet. I'll go out on a very thin limb and say no. "A monk cannot use a flurry when using anything other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon. A nonmonk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way." but you may be able to use your natural weapons after the flurry. It doesn't really matter what other people tell you it will be up to your DM to decide if you can or can't. I would listen to what is said here then show it to your DM and have him decide if you can or can't. Have a look at these wizard sites on unarmed attacks, Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a), Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) and Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a).
dman11235 12-30-07, 10:34 PM	An unarmed strike IS a natural weapon blade265, while not all natural weapons are unarmed strikes. Okay, the deal is that natural weapons (aside from unarmed strikes) are not monk weapons, so are not flurryable. However, it is so stupid that I change that, and most if not all of the DMs I have had change it. It's part of your friggin' body! One would think that you'd train with it too.
blade265 12-30-07, 11:08 PM	An unarmed strike IS a natural weapon blade265, while not all natural weapons are unarmed strikes. It is NOT a natural weapon as far as wizards rules are concerned. I'm not going to get into an arguement over it, IMO it is a natural weapon because it it made with a body part but wizards say it's not and I will go with them, If you don't like the rules and want to change them go for your bloody life.
dman11235 12-30-07, 11:15 PM	It's both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon, for various things, such as feats and spells. I guess you could say it's different than both, since it is a melding of them.
sigma999 12-30-07, 11:26 PM	Screw it. House rule unarmed and natural weapons to be the same thing for simplicity. Seriously, it will make your gaming easier.
runestar 12-31-07, 01:25 AM	The proper sequence is to make your normal flurry of unarmed strikes, followed by all your natural attacks as secondary attacks. This is clarified in the FAQ (which I feel people should really start reading more).:) Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves? If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks. An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).
Kapalen 12-31-07, 02:10 AM	The proper sequence is to make your normal flurry of unarmed strikes, followed by all your natural attacks as secondary attacks. This is clarified in the FAQ (which I feel people should really start reading more).:) Let's say you were a monk with twf and a bite. Could you flurry, use your off-hand attack, and then bite?
blade265 12-31-07, 02:15 AM	It's both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon, for various things, such as feats and spells. I guess you could say it's different than both, since it is a melding of them. I just call it an unarmed strike, the problem is that it states that it is "treated" and doesn't actually say that it is either, it is annoying isn't it. Screw it. House rule unarmed and natural weapons to be the same thing for simplicity. Seriously, it will make your gaming easier. House rules are fine up to a point, it's just an easy around a problem. Anyway it doesn't matter what "we" think, it's up to their DM. The best idea is to talk to your DM and see their ruling. Happy New Year Everyone and have a safe one :D
runestar 12-31-07, 02:22 AM	Let's say you were a monk with twf and a bite. Could you flurry, use your off-hand attack, and then bite? Yes. You first flurry + TWF, taking all the appropriate penalties (to-hit penalty, 1/2 str mod to damage on off-hand attacks), then follow up with your bite as a secondary attack (meaning an additional -5 to-hit, 1/2 str mod damage). Also note that you can combine flurry and TWF with unarmed strikes (despite what the monk entry appears to suggest).
drunkman 12-31-07, 04:58 PM	Okay, so you can, GREAT!!! Now I can do this attack combination with this 1st levelmonk I made Second question: does flurry of blows stack with haste or a similar effects? I can kind of go either way on this, I'm not sure.
Cartigan 12-31-07, 05:41 PM	An unarmed strike IS a natural weapon blade265, Actually it's not.
deathbane 12-31-07, 06:00 PM	Actually it's not. You can't say it is not and then not provide a source or explanation. Well you can, because you just did, but you know what I mean. By the way an unarmed strike is a natural weapon Per the glossary on the website natural weapons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_naturalweapon&alpha=N) Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature unarmed strike (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_unarmedstrike&alpha=U) Unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a chatacter attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage.
concerro 12-31-07, 06:09 PM	The proper sequence is to make your normal flurry of unarmed strikes, followed by all your natural attacks as secondary attacks. This is clarified in the FAQ (which I feel people should really start reading more).:) I argued against this point for a long time until I realized the PHB said you can't make any other attacks as part of your flurry of blows, but it does not specify not making natural attacks after the flurry of blows, now I have a question. Can a maralith monk make her flurry of blows and then still get all her natural attacks attacks in after that at the -5?
runestar 12-31-07, 09:45 PM	Can a maralith monk make her flurry of blows and then still get all her natural attacks attacks in after that at the -5? Yep, which amounts to 6 slams and 1 tail. It pretty much follows the same formula as my earlier answers.:)
Cartigan 12-31-07, 10:16 PM	You can't say it is not and then not provide a source or explanation. Well you can, because you just did, but you know what I mean. By the way an unarmed strike is a natural weapon Per the glossary on the website natural weapons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_naturalweapon&alpha=N) Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature unarmed strike (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_unarmedstrike&alpha=U) Unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a chatacter attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage. Natural weapons are not subject to multiple attacks due to high BAB. Unarmed strikes are not treated as natural weapons for the purposes of anything. Even with Improved Unarmed Strike. That is why the Monk ability has to explicitly say they are. In fact, even Monk's unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. They are only treated as such for enhancement and qualifications.
concerro 12-31-07, 10:20 PM	Yep, which amounts to 6 slams and 1 tail. It pretty much follows the same formula as my earlier answers.:) Thanks. BTW, I am not trying to play a maralith as a PC before someone informs me that it is not playable other than as DM fiat :devil:
dman11235 12-31-07, 10:28 PM	Natural weapons are not subject to multiple attacks due to high BAB. Unarmed strikes are not treated as natural weapons for the purposes of anything. Even with Improved Unarmed Strike. That is why the Monk ability has to explicitly say they are. In fact, even Monk's unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. They are only treated as such for enhancement and qualifications. Yes, they are. It's a melding of the two. It holds the benefits of iterative attacks, and the benefits of being part of you. It also holds the drawback of not being a manufactured weapon (so no mwk, and no enchanting), and the drawback or not being a natural weapon (need TWF to use it in addition to a weapon). Also, my body is part of my body, and thus is a natural weapon. I think that's pretty clear. It's just a natural weapon with exceptions. A lot of them.
runestar 12-31-07, 10:48 PM	Also, my body is part of my body, and thus is a natural weapon. I think that's pretty clear. It's just a natural weapon with exceptions. A lot of them. I doubt it. Based on how the PHB defines unarmed attacks, it seems to treat it more like attacking with a weapon (fitting, considering how you do get iterative attacks with it), and less so as a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) (note how unarmed strike is not listed under the checklist of common natural weapon, though it does technically fulfill its definition). Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: As such, I believe that even for the monk, unarmed strikes and natural attacks still remain as 2 completely different things, and should thus be tracked as such, rather than mixing them together.:)
concerro 01-01-08, 03:27 AM	Natural weapons are not subject to multiple attacks due to high BAB. Unarmed strikes are not treated as natural weapons for the purposes of anything. Even with Improved Unarmed Strike. That is why the Monk ability has to explicitly say they are. In fact, even Monk's unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. They are only treated as such for enhancement and qualifications. It is a natural attack by definition, but not by mechanics, but I don't think it matters, since I have read the OP's question, and he/she now knows that Flurry and nat weapons can be used in the same round.
Tsuul 01-01-08, 04:55 AM	A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry. Game rules don't model life 100%. Sometimes you have to break things to get everything to play nice. Unarmed strikes is one of those things that can't be bridged between iterative attack routines and monster attack routines perfectly, something had to give.
Ace_of_time 01-01-08, 12:04 PM	I for one would go with Rules of the game on the monk issues. the Faq gets confused some times when it comes to monk. Not all beleive this and I don't wish to argue about it. Here is where the confusion is. Flurry is both a attack routine and it is an action. That is to say has it has got it's own BAB already modified for it. But the whole routine is a flurry action. During a flurry action you have to follow certain rules. You can't use anything during a flurry action that doesn't follow those rules. The faq only sees the flurry as a attack routine and allows other things to be add to the end/begining of the routine. RotG sees flurry attack routine as a flurry action and which means anything added to that action has to still follow the rules for flurry. The best thing would be to talk to your DM and see if he would allow you to take a homebrew feat that lets your natural weapons count as monk weapons. You can point out that eberron already allows long sword to be added as a feat. Using your example your lizardfolk could say she was trained by a monastery that is only trains monk lizard folk and you learned it from them. This would still limit you to the number of attacks that the BAB attack routine says. What race were you thinking of using. I don't think anybody has asked. Some monsters are better of not using flurry.
Cartigan 01-01-08, 12:31 PM	Also, my body is part of my body, and thus is a natural weapon. I think that's pretty clear. It's just a natural weapon with exceptions. A lot of them. That's not how natural weapons work in D&D.
Devigod 01-01-08, 12:39 PM	Okay, seriously, it is both a manufactured and natural weapon, as magic fang can be cast upon it. Just check Magic Fang, PHB. Magic Weapon, on the other hand, cannot be cast on it, as it states: "because it is a natural weapon." We all agree that it is also manufactured in other ways, however. I win. The most basic resource clears this up. Checkmate.
Tsuul 01-01-08, 04:18 PM	Just check Magic Fang, PHB. Magic Weapon, on the other hand, cannot be cast on it, as it states: "because it is a natural weapon." We all agree that it is also manufactured in other ways, however. I win. The most basic resource clears this up. Checkmate. The reply to this [argument] is Primary vs secondary sources. Afterall, one does not learn the ways of weapons from a wizard. The counter argument[to the primary vs secondary rules], begins an endless loop of arguments where misinterpretations run rampant. I suggest you do a search in the past threads on this subject to see where this train wreck is heading.
concerro 01-01-08, 04:29 PM	What I would like to know, and this would settle the debate is whether FoB is a full round action. If it is a FRA then there are no natural attacks that can follow, but if it is a special full attack action that takes the place of a regular full attack action then natural attacks can follow. I don't have the rules compendium yet, and since this has been a hotly debated topic for a while I would assume that the book would have the answer. I personally am tired of seeing this thread popup, and would like an official answer, and while the FAQ is highly suggested, it is not official. Official in this case means having the authority to override what is in the books like errata does.
Tsuul 01-01-08, 04:39 PM	I don't know if the Rules Comp touches on the subject. The faq is only supposed to clarify existing rules, like in explaining that 2 x 2 = 3 in dnd math. Which leads me to what I want the most for 4e. Real updated errata.
Ace_of_time 01-01-08, 04:54 PM	Rules comp is written by the same guy as Rule of the game so if it is in there it is going to mostly say the same as RotG does. Which, as it comes down to most monk stuff, are opposite stands. You could just do what I do. Read them both and then talk to your group about it and go with what makes most sense to you and your group. That is about the best way to handle most things anyway.
drunkman 01-01-08, 11:25 PM	I'm glad that I'm getting plenty of attaention on this issue. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Ok anyway, let my analyze some of your commentary. I hear a lot of talk on what kind of weapon an unarmed strike is. That's where a lot of the debate seems to comes from. Well, in one sense, it's both because it melds in a little bit into beth descriptions, but technecally an unarmed strike is its neither, simply because it fits neither description. And unarmed strike is an unarmed strike.
Ace_of_time 01-02-08, 01:32 AM	Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.RAWs say monk unarmed strike can use ether/or. So I can take imp natural weapon and then next feat take imp crit unarmed strike. If a spell says it only work on manufactured weapons the a monk can use it on his unarmed strike. If a spell says it only works on natural weapons a monk can use it on his unarmed strike.