Flurry of Blows + Two Weapon Fighting. Possible? Overpowerd? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flurry of Blows + Two Weapon Fighting. Possible? Overpowerd? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RKstigo
09-10-07, 08:05 PM So, this morning I was thinking of monk NPC and it occurred to me: “could a monk use the two weapons fighting feats?”

I decided to look over the rules of unarmed attack and two weapon fighting, here is what I saw:

- At the Two-Handed Fighting Article

“A class feature or a feat such as Improved Unarmed Strike allows a human to function as though armed with a manufactured weapon."

"You can use an unarmed strike as either your primary or secondary weapon."

"You also need a weapon or two, though you can use unarmed strikes as your "weapons" in a two-weapon attack."

"Remember that an unarmed strike is considered a light weapon..."

- At the Player’s Handbook

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember could make one attack with her unarmed strike at an attack bonus of +3 and one attack with a special monk weapon at an attack bonus of +3. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1-1/2 or × 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands." page 41

"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes." page 41

“TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: See Two-Weapon Fighting, page 160, and Table 8–10: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties, page 160.
Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor (see page 48).
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38).” Page 102

“TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:
If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.” Page 160

Based on this I ask:

1- Is a monk allowed the two weapon fighting feats? (for what I see yes, but asking never hurts)

2- Since “There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed”, does he take the two weapon fighting -2 penalties in his attack rolls? (considering he has the two weapon fighting feat)

3- Since “A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes”, may he also apply his full strength bonus to his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats?

4- Does the flurry of blows also allow extra attacks with his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats?
ShinAkuma2
09-10-07, 08:14 PM 1- Is a monk allowed the two weapon fighting feats? (for what I see yes, but asking never hurts)

I don't think I've ever seen a feat that was disallowed for a certain class, assuming the class could meet the prereqs. A Monk can certainly take the TWF feats.

2- Since “There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed”, does he take the two weapon fighting -2 penalties in his attack rolls? (considering he has the two weapon fighting feat)

Yes he does. There's no such as thing as an off-hand when a Monk strikes unarmed, because he can do a Flurry or normal attack sequence with either hand, or his legs, or whatever, all with equal proficiency. Once you throw in TWF, however, you are specifically introducing the use of an off-hand attack.

In short, yeah, the penalty is there. If he literally had no off-hand, he couldn't TWF in the first place.

3- Since “A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes”, may he also apply his full strength bonus to his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats?

No, because it's an off-hand attack, not an interchangable unarmed attack during a FoB/normal attack sequence.

4- Does the flurry of blows also allow extra attacks with his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats?

Most certainly. It'll just be really hard to hit anything until you get rid of the penalties.
dman11235
09-10-07, 08:14 PM You need another weapon other than your unarmed strike, and then your BAB at level 20 with TWF and ITWF and GTWF is 13/8/3 on hand 13/8/3 off and two more attacks at 13. Flurry adds to the total attacks in the round, and not the attacks with your on-hand, so those attacks are not multiplied.
StruckingFuggle
09-10-07, 09:06 PM You need another weapon other than your unarmed strike

Hm. Why can't you do both with your unarmed strikes or other Monk Weapon?

Flurry adds to the total attacks in the round, and not the attacks with your on-hand, so those attacks are not multiplied.

Until you get PTWF.
RKstigo
09-10-07, 10:23 PM Yes he does. There's no such as thing as an off-hand when a Monk strikes unarmed, because he can do a Flurry or normal attack sequence with either hand, or his legs, or whatever, all with equal proficiency. Once you throw in TWF, however, you are specifically introducing the use of an off-hand attack.

In short, yeah, the penalty is there. If he literally had no off-hand, he couldn't TWF in the first place.

i agree with you on this one, a think the penalty comes from the time you spend giving the strikes, not from "left hand"... you can't strike 10 times mantaining the accuracy of one strike...

No, because it's an off-hand attack, not an interchangable unarmed attack during a FoB/normal attack sequence.

with this I'll have to desagree, it especifically says that he applies his full str bonus to all his unarmed damage, it doesn't really matter the nature of the attack (normal or FoB)...

and i just saw this in the FoB description: "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round."

so dman11235 is right.....
diegosephroth
09-10-07, 11:18 PM Obviously TWF attacks stacks with FoB attacks. They don't multiply, though. Same if you have a haste effect on you, it's add to the total attacks in the round.

However, TWF will give a -2 penalty, and FoB another -2, to a total of -4 penalty. Unless you have a REALLY high Str or Dex(Weapon Finesse) scores, it's a tight penalty to suffer compared to another medium-Bab progression char, like a rogue. At least at early levels. Maybe late, the -2 penalty of TWF is worth, but you will have to spent your few feats to buy those 3 TWF feats, which is HUGE, since monks have little feats to spare.

I agree with ShinAkuma2 in all aspects, I believe it's just how the description separates your unarmed attacks to your monk weapon attacks, saying there is no such thing as "attacking with your left hand, or left foot". Technically speaking, I believe your Str penalties on damage will still be there in TWF attacks, as they are on natural weapons of monsters.
EjoThims
09-11-07, 08:04 AM Flurry of Blows + Two Weapon Fighting. Possible?

Yes

Overpowerd?

And no.

And yes, a monk can use unarmed attacks as both MH and OH in the same round, even when using flurry.

When using unarmed OH attacks, they suffer all OH penalties.
RKstigo
09-11-07, 11:17 AM However, TWF will give a -2 penalty, and FoB another -2, to a total of -4 penalty.

after lvl 9 the FoB has no more penalties....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RKstigo 09-10-07, 08:05 PM	So, this morning I was thinking of monk NPC and it occurred to me: “could a monk use the two weapons fighting feats?” I decided to look over the rules of unarmed attack and two weapon fighting, here is what I saw: - At the Two-Handed Fighting Article “A class feature or a feat such as Improved Unarmed Strike allows a human to function as though armed with a manufactured weapon." "You can use an unarmed strike as either your primary or secondary weapon." "You also need a weapon or two, though you can use unarmed strikes as your "weapons" in a two-weapon attack." "Remember that an unarmed strike is considered a light weapon..." - At the Player’s Handbook "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember could make one attack with her unarmed strike at an attack bonus of +3 and one attack with a special monk weapon at an attack bonus of +3. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1-1/2 or × 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands." page 41 "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes." page 41 “TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon. Prerequisite: Dex 15. Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. Normal: See Two-Weapon Fighting, page 160, and Table 8–10: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties, page 160. Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor (see page 48). A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38).” Page 102 “TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. You can reduce these penalties in two ways: If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.” Page 160 Based on this I ask: 1- Is a monk allowed the two weapon fighting feats? (for what I see yes, but asking never hurts) 2- Since “There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed”, does he take the two weapon fighting -2 penalties in his attack rolls? (considering he has the two weapon fighting feat) 3- Since “A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes”, may he also apply his full strength bonus to his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats? 4- Does the flurry of blows also allow extra attacks with his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats?
ShinAkuma2 09-10-07, 08:14 PM	1- Is a monk allowed the two weapon fighting feats? (for what I see yes, but asking never hurts) I don't think I've ever seen a feat that was disallowed for a certain class, assuming the class could meet the prereqs. A Monk can certainly take the TWF feats. 2- Since “There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed”, does he take the two weapon fighting -2 penalties in his attack rolls? (considering he has the two weapon fighting feat) Yes he does. There's no such as thing as an off-hand when a Monk strikes unarmed, because he can do a Flurry or normal attack sequence with either hand, or his legs, or whatever, all with equal proficiency. Once you throw in TWF, however, you are specifically introducing the use of an off-hand attack. In short, yeah, the penalty is there. If he literally had no off-hand, he couldn't TWF in the first place. 3- Since “A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes”, may he also apply his full strength bonus to his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats? No, because it's an off-hand attack, not an interchangable unarmed attack during a FoB/normal attack sequence. 4- Does the flurry of blows also allow extra attacks with his attacks granted by the two weapon fighting feats? Most certainly. It'll just be really hard to hit anything until you get rid of the penalties.
dman11235 09-10-07, 08:14 PM	You need another weapon other than your unarmed strike, and then your BAB at level 20 with TWF and ITWF and GTWF is 13/8/3 on hand 13/8/3 off and two more attacks at 13. Flurry adds to the total attacks in the round, and not the attacks with your on-hand, so those attacks are not multiplied.
StruckingFuggle 09-10-07, 09:06 PM	You need another weapon other than your unarmed strike Hm. Why can't you do both with your unarmed strikes or other Monk Weapon? Flurry adds to the total attacks in the round, and not the attacks with your on-hand, so those attacks are not multiplied. Until you get PTWF.
RKstigo 09-10-07, 10:23 PM	Yes he does. There's no such as thing as an off-hand when a Monk strikes unarmed, because he can do a Flurry or normal attack sequence with either hand, or his legs, or whatever, all with equal proficiency. Once you throw in TWF, however, you are specifically introducing the use of an off-hand attack. In short, yeah, the penalty is there. If he literally had no off-hand, he couldn't TWF in the first place. i agree with you on this one, a think the penalty comes from the time you spend giving the strikes, not from "left hand"... you can't strike 10 times mantaining the accuracy of one strike... No, because it's an off-hand attack, not an interchangable unarmed attack during a FoB/normal attack sequence. with this I'll have to desagree, it especifically says that he applies his full str bonus to all his unarmed damage, it doesn't really matter the nature of the attack (normal or FoB)... and i just saw this in the FoB description: "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round." so dman11235 is right.....
diegosephroth 09-10-07, 11:18 PM	Obviously TWF attacks stacks with FoB attacks. They don't multiply, though. Same if you have a haste effect on you, it's add to the total attacks in the round. However, TWF will give a -2 penalty, and FoB another -2, to a total of -4 penalty. Unless you have a REALLY high Str or Dex(Weapon Finesse) scores, it's a tight penalty to suffer compared to another medium-Bab progression char, like a rogue. At least at early levels. Maybe late, the -2 penalty of TWF is worth, but you will have to spent your few feats to buy those 3 TWF feats, which is HUGE, since monks have little feats to spare. I agree with ShinAkuma2 in all aspects, I believe it's just how the description separates your unarmed attacks to your monk weapon attacks, saying there is no such thing as "attacking with your left hand, or left foot". Technically speaking, I believe your Str penalties on damage will still be there in TWF attacks, as they are on natural weapons of monsters.
EjoThims 09-11-07, 08:04 AM	Flurry of Blows + Two Weapon Fighting. Possible? Yes Overpowerd? And no. And yes, a monk can use unarmed attacks as both MH and OH in the same round, even when using flurry. When using unarmed OH attacks, they suffer all OH penalties.
RKstigo 09-11-07, 11:17 AM	However, TWF will give a -2 penalty, and FoB another -2, to a total of -4 penalty. after lvl 9 the FoB has no more penalties....