Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rebel7284 12-14-07, 08:04 AM	Can i use the spring attack feat while under the effect of fly/draconic flight/overland flight/etc? The feat description does not specify that land movement is required, although the flavor text talks about "footwork". If i CAN use it with alternate move modes, why did they ever make flyby attack?
runestar 12-14-07, 08:56 AM	Can i use the spring attack feat while under the effect of fly/draconic flight/overland flight/etc? As far as I can tell, nothing in the feat's entry explicitly prohibits movement from flight, nor do I consider flavour text to be anywhere near the equivalent of RAW. Flyby attack lets you move and perform a standard action, spring attack is limited to just a melee attack. Thus, a dragon could for example, use flyby attack to move into a choice position to affect as many targets as possible with its breath weapon, but would be unable to achieve this with spring attack.
Rebel7284 12-14-07, 09:04 AM	Thank you
McPoyo 12-14-07, 10:50 AM	Keep in mind your maneuverability rating limits how you can move during that Spring Attack.
Knightblde 12-14-07, 10:55 AM	This is incorrect. You need Improved Fly-By Attack to emulate Spring Attack. The feat gives you the option of moving, attacking, and moving again without rovoking the AoO. Thus, a dragon could for example, use flyby attack to move into a choice position to affect as many targets as possible with its breath weapon, but would be unable to achieve this with spring attack. A Dragon can already do this without the feat. The feat allows it to move, use it's breath weapon, and move again. He can attack as his standard action, but still provokes an AoO normally.
Rebel7284 12-14-07, 04:25 PM	This is incorrect. You need Improved Fly-By Attack to emulate Spring Attack. The feat gives you the option of moving, attacking, and moving again without rovoking the AoO. A Dragon can already do this without the feat. The feat allows it to move, use it's breath weapon, and move again. He can attack as his standard action, but still provokes an AoO normally. what part are you referring to when you say "this is incorrect"? Just the dragon example? or are you saying I can't spring attack without improved flyby attack?
runestar 12-14-07, 05:47 PM	This is incorrect. You need Improved Fly-By Attack to emulate Spring Attack. The feat gives you the option of moving, attacking, and moving again without rovoking the AoO. A Dragon can already do this without the feat. The feat allows it to move, use it's breath weapon, and move again. He can attack as his standard action, but still provokes an AoO normally. Given that the dragon typically has a very long reach, the problem of provoking an AoO is not that great. Though you are right in the case of foes with little reach, such as a will-of-the-wisp.:)
Knightblde 12-14-07, 11:13 PM	what part are you referring to when you say "this is incorrect"? Just the dragon example? or are you saying I can't spring attack without improved flyby attack? You cannot Spring Attack while flying. The Dragon example is incorrect because a dragon can move a beathe anytime it wants, it does not need a feat. Flyby attack allows it to move, breathe, and finish it's move. So the example is wrong in a few way. Also, Flyby Attack does not grant any 'bonus' to avoiding AoO in any way. See below. Flyby Attack [General] Prerequisite Fly speed. Benefit When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack. Normal Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move. Improved Flyby Attack, does allow you to flyby an opponet without provoking an AoO. It also states that Flyby Attack makes you provoke, clearing up any questions. Improved Flyby Attack [General] Prerequisite Fly speed, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Mobility. Benefit If the standard action taken by a creature during a round in which it uses Flyby Attack is a melee attack, the creature provokes no attacks of opportunity from moving out of squares threatened by its target. Normal Without this feat, a creature making an attack as part of a Flyby Attack maneuver provokes attacks of opportunity as normal from moving out of squares threatened by its target. I found both feats in the D20SRD under Monster and Epic Feats, even though IFA is not an Epic Feat. Hope this clears it up.
runestar 12-14-07, 11:39 PM	You cannot Spring Attack while flying. Quote please? I think my example has been misinterpreted, that and I may have been too vague. What I meant to say was that a dragon with flyby attack could say, move, use its breath weapon (or any standard action), then move again. This is contrasted with spring attack, where you can only move, attack and move again. That is the key difference between the 2, and a most significant one. Likewise, it still provokes if appropriate (note that as a SU ability, using its breath weapon does not provoke an AoO), but used carefully, this should not be a problem. For example, a dragon typically has enough ranks to always succeed at defensive casting, and its reach is likely longer than that of the PCs, so it should not provoke an AoO for leaving a square if maneuvered properly.:)
jaelis 12-15-07, 12:30 AM	Spring Attack [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4. Benefit When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Special A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. I see nothing here that specifies what form of movement you need to use. You could spring attack while walking, climbing, flying, swimming, burrowing, or anything else.
Knightblde 12-15-07, 09:44 AM	Quote please? Unfortunatly, I have no direct quote. I came to this conclusion based on the feat Improved Flyby Attack. It has all the feat same prereqs that spring attack does, plus requires you to have Flyby Attack and a flight speed. It clearly states that if you do not have this feat, you provoke attacks as normal. I believe spring attack is limited to land movement. If you wanted to charge while flying, you would have to meet special conditions. As far as I can tell these conditions are not mentioned in the SRD. They are however on page 27 of the Rules Compendium. The simple fact that there is a feat that emulates Spring Attack for flying creatures lends to the argument that Spring Attack does not work while flying. To feel otherwise you would have to say the designers were being redundant and forgot about Spring Attack. Or you would have to say they wanted to give flying creatures two paths to gain the same ability. I think this is a little bit of a stretch. But, like I said I can't prove my case. Happy Gaming!
teamfireyleader 12-15-07, 10:14 AM	May i sugest that this is up to the dm and you should ask him. I'd rule that it didn't work, but other people will think differently.
Kratch 12-15-07, 01:52 PM	Unfortunatly, I have no direct quote. I came to this conclusion based on the feat Improved Flyby Attack. It has all the feat same prereqs that spring attack does, plus requires you to have Flyby Attack and a flight speed. It clearly states that if you do not have this feat, you provoke attacks as normal. I believe spring attack is limited to land movement. If you wanted to charge while flying, you would have to meet special conditions. As far as I can tell these conditions are not mentioned in the SRD. They are however on page 27 of the Rules Compendium. The simple fact that there is a feat that emulates Spring Attack for flying creatures lends to the argument that Spring Attack does not work while flying. To feel otherwise you would have to say the designers were being redundant and forgot about Spring Attack. Or you would have to say they wanted to give flying creatures two paths to gain the same ability. I think this is a little bit of a stretch. But, like I said I can't prove my case. Happy Gaming! improved flyby and spring attack are still rather different feats improved flyby restricts movement type to fly, it has the option of any action being taken between movement, and only negates the AoO if the attack is melee spring attack restricts the action taken (melee weapon attack only, can't forgo denying the movement AoO to perform a non attack spring attack), but does not restrict movement.
Rebel7284 12-15-07, 01:53 PM	So basically the consensus seems to be that by RAW it works, but by RAI it may not? Alright I'll ask the DM
Merestil Haye 12-15-07, 02:30 PM	If Spring Attack were meant to apply to land movement only, it would say so. It does not, therefore it applies to any form of movement. For an example of an ability which does apply only to regular land movement, consider the Barbarian's fast movement ability.Fast Movement (Ex) A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet.(Bolding mine.) For another, there is Flyby Attack, which specifies that the featholder must be flying to benefit from it. The basic difference between IFA and Spring Attack is that one requires +4 base attack and the other a fly speed.
Knightblde 12-15-07, 04:41 PM	So a character can use spring attack while climbing and swimming, right?
Merestil Haye 12-16-07, 05:55 AM	So a character can use spring attack while climbing and swimming, right?If they can attack when climbing or swimming, then yes. Other rules determine whether they pass that test. For example, a character with no Climb speed working his way up a vine mesh can't manoevre well enough to make a spring attack, but the monkey that's harrassing him can do so, because it does have a climb speed.
Knightblde 12-16-07, 10:09 AM	Nothing under spring attack says you can't use it while climbing. If you can't apply the rule that you use to climb, why can you apply it to fly? This is usually the first indicator that the rule you are using is incorrect. You can't say the rule is: Spring Attack does talk about forms of movement so any form is ok. And then rule that it is not ok for some forms if you don't have a speed score in that form.
jaelis 12-16-07, 02:59 PM	For climbing, you have to account for the rule: You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. That says you can't actually attack while climbing (unless you're using a bite or something else that doesn't require hands), so if you interpret Spring Attack as letting you attack while moving, you would probably rule that out. If you think Spring Attack instead lets you move, stop and attack, then move some more, then it should be fine. (I'd lean toward the former.) But I don't think it would matter whether you had a climb speed or not. And there's no similar restriction on swimming, so that should be fine.
Knightblde 12-16-07, 05:32 PM	Actually Spring Attack lets you move before and after your attack, not during, so just by RAW if you can apply it to fly, there is no reason not to apply it to climb.
Kratch 12-16-07, 05:47 PM	Actually Spring Attack lets you move before and after your attack, not during, so just by RAW if you can apply it to fly, there is no reason not to apply it to climb. Correct. Of course, It is within the right of the DM to adjust this ruling. Spring attack does not negate the penalties involved in climbing though, such as being denied dexterity (if you don't have a climb speed) and the potential reduced movement rate.
Meep222 12-18-07, 02:22 PM	I see nothing here that specifies what form of movement you need to use. You could spring attack while walking, climbing, flying, swimming, burrowing, or anything else. I'd agree with you, as further proof, look at page 20 in the DMG, under the moving in three dimensions, which clarifies that you can use normal movement rules in any circumstance's in which you can move.
Knightblde 12-18-07, 02:51 PM	I'd agree with you, as further proof, look at page 20 in the DMG, under the moving in three dimensions, which clarifies that you can use normal movement rules in any circumstance's in which you can move. That is kinda true, but there are already special rules for flying. For instance, you can't charge just by moving 10'. There is a lot more to it.
Rebel7284 12-18-07, 03:09 PM	My DM ended up ruling that I can't spring attack while flying with anything that can't hover since, according to him, i have to stop to attack. He did however say that if i somehow acquire flyby attack, he will allow me to use spring attack instead of improved flyby attack. I still disagree with him, but eh? it's his game.
jaelis 12-18-07, 05:28 PM	My DM ended up ruling that I can't spring attack while flying with anything that can't hover since, according to him, i have to stop to attack. He did however say that if i somehow acquire flyby attack, he will allow me to use spring attack instead of improved flyby attack. I still disagree with him, but eh? it's his game. What the DM says goes, but did you ask him what is different between spring attacking and just moving, attacking, and then moving again next turn?