Frenzied berserker and leap attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Frenzied berserker and leap attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
liquoriceanimal
08-25-07, 01:48 AM I have found a really nice combo to make good damage with frenzied berserker: supreme power attack + leap attack. This gives me a 1:12 power attack. But does this work? Leap attack states that you do triple the extra damage with power attack.
Qube
08-25-07, 01:55 AM nice, but not quite original.
(splash in shock trooper: the penaltie goes to AC instead of attack ...)
StevenO
08-25-07, 09:21 PM My reading would suggest only a 1:6 ratio. Reading Supreme Power Attack says it doesn't stack with PA while Leap Attack multiplies the damage from PA which some could argue makes them exclusive from each other. Of course the FAQ may say 1:12 is correct but I'd just use the typical addition of multipliers instead.
Nephlite
08-26-07, 11:47 AM My reading would suggest only a 1:6 ratio. Reading Supreme Power Attack says it doesn't stack with PA while Leap Attack multiplies the damage from PA which some could argue makes them exclusive from each other. Of course the FAQ may say 1:12 is correct but I'd just use the typical addition of multipliers instead.

Niope, Supreme PA stack with PA. Or rather changes the PA damage.

Leap Attack works off SPA's new number.
Someone
08-26-07, 01:03 PM You can achieve similar results with Spirited Charge and two-handing a lance.

In either case, that's quite a few feats to have picked up by 16 level or so (FB gets supreme power attack at 10th?), so you might have to multiclass into fighter for a bit to get them all.
Spikes01k
08-26-07, 11:57 PM There seems to be one of these every few days.... sigh.

The proper ratio, form WoTC its self, is leap attack setts the ratio for a two handed weapon to 1:3 not 1:6. Supreme does double this to 1:6 not 1:12.

If you don't agree with me then fine, call their 1800 number or E-mail them and get the same answer.
Tedronai
08-27-07, 12:52 AM Though it would seem that using the D&D multiplier stacking rules (not that this is strictly a multiplier, just for all intents and purposes) would put the final outcome at 1:5
Someone
08-27-07, 01:00 AM The problem is that they are modifying different things. Supreme power attack multiplies the rate at which power attack trades to hit bonus for damage. Leap attack multiplies the total damage, PA included. So technically, you're not getting a 12 to 1 power attack ratio, your just doing triple damage with however much your 4:1 power attack did.
Spikes01k
08-27-07, 10:17 AM Though it would seem that using the D&D multiplier stacking rules (not that this is strictly a multiplier, just for all intents and purposes) would put the final outcome at 1:5

The main problem here is that leap attack does not multiply the damage of a two handed weapon it simply sets the damage to 1:3.
ravenshrike
08-27-07, 12:53 PM There seems to be one of these every few days.... sigh.

The proper ratio, form WoTC its self, is leap attack setts the ratio for a two handed weapon to 1:3 not 1:6. Supreme does double this to 1:6 not 1:12.

If you don't agree with me then fine, call their 1800 number or E-mail them and get the same answer.

Custserv is about as reliable as a Chery Amulet((Chery Amulet) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQGAK550LE). Think of Leap Attack as a Function and PA as a variable declared ByVal it calls for when used. Whereas Frenzy is a subroutine that runs once the FB hits 10th level that modifies the variable that Leap Attack calls. Ergo, leap attack triples the 4:1 ratio, making it 12:1. This is not a crit, and therefore crit stacking rules do not apply.

Not to mention that if crit stacking rules DO apply, than with the errata'd Leap attack it would become more advantageous to use SPA with a 1 handed weapon as the errata'd LA adds +100%(not a multiplier) to your power attack damage, which means that you would do 4:1 vs a twohanders 5:1. This would leave your other arm for a shield with some nice enchantments on it.
Spikes01k
08-27-07, 01:02 PM Custserv is about as reliable as a Chery Amulet((Chery Amulet) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQGAK550LE). Think of Leap Attack as a Function and PA as a variable declared ByVal it calls for when used. Whereas Frenzy is a subroutine that runs once the FB hits 10th level that modifies the variable that Leap Attack calls. Ergo, leap attack triples the 4:1 ratio, making it 12:1. This is not a crit, and therefore crit stacking rules do not apply.

Not to mention that if crit stacking rules DO apply, than with the errata'd Leap attack it would become more advantageous to use SPA with a 1 handed weapon as the errata'd LA adds +100%(not a multiplier) to your power attack damage, which means that you would do 4:1 vs a twohanders 5:1. This would leave your other arm for a shield with some nice enchantments on it.

Sorry you just don't get it. Call the WoTC 1800 help number or e-mail them your self. I did and every time they give me the same answer. There is a new rule that states that multipliers do not stack where instead they gain a high multiplier. So if on ability grants you a x2 damage, another bonus granting x2 damage makes it x3 damage, not x4. Leap attack does not grant a multiplier it resets the ratio from 1:2 to 1:3, so when you apply supreme power attack it makes it 1:6.

P.S. You are also missing that the +100% damage language only applies to a one handed weapon. The part referring to a two handed weapon remains the same even after the errata.
Patinho_Amarelo
08-27-07, 02:56 PM Regular PA With THW - 1:2
PA With THW and LP - 1:6 or 1:4 ???
SPa With THW and LP - 1:12 or 1:6 ??
Spikes01k
08-27-07, 02:58 PM Regular PA With THW - 1:2
PA With THW and LP - 1:6 or 1:4 ???
SPa With THW and LP - 1:12 or 1:6 ??

PA with THW and LA- 1:3
StevenO
08-27-07, 03:00 PM PW with THW and LP = 1:3 ratio, deal triple extra power attack damage where power attack damage = attack penalty.
EvilVegan
08-27-07, 03:08 PM Find a way to get pounce. I hope your party likes being a puddle of goo.

The errata on Leap attack states it improves it power attack by +50%.

Normal two-handed PA is 1:2, improved 50% is 1:3. Frenzied Berserker doubles power attack benefit, so either it makes the initial PA 1:4 and then leap attack adds 50% (making it 1:6) or leap attack improves it to 1:3 and then FB doubles it (making it 1:6). If you apply both simultaneously (+150%) you get the 1:5 you'd expect from "stacking multipliers", but that isn't the accepted method of applying percentage based modifiers (+100% is not the same as x2 in D&D for some reason).

Anyway, get pounce.
Spikes01k
08-27-07, 08:19 PM Find a way to get pounce. I hope your party likes being a puddle of goo.

The errata on Leap attack states it improves it power attack by +50%.

Normal two-handed PA is 1:2, improved 50% is 1:3. Frenzied Berserker doubles power attack benefit, so either it makes the initial PA 1:4 and then leap attack adds 50% (making it 1:6) or leap attack improves it to 1:3 and then FB doubles it (making it 1:6). If you apply both simultaneously (+150%) you get the 1:5 you'd expect from "stacking multipliers", but that isn't the accepted method of applying percentage based modifiers (+100% is not the same as x2 in D&D for some reason).

Anyway, get pounce.

Yes, champion variant of barbarian is nice. (Complete Champion)
ravenshrike
08-28-07, 12:25 PM Sorry you just don't get it. Call the WoTC 1800 help number or e-mail them your self. I did and every time they give me the same answer. There is a new rule that states that multipliers do not stack where instead they gain a high multiplier. So if on ability grants you a x2 damage, another bonus granting x2 damage makes it x3 damage, not x4. Leap attack does not grant a multiplier it resets the ratio from 1:2 to 1:3, so when you apply supreme power attack it makes it 1:6.

P.S. You are also missing that the +100% damage language only applies to a one handed weapon. The part referring to a two handed weapon remains the same even after the errata.

It does not. As I noted before, SPA REPLACES the ratio from PA. You can no longer PA at a rate of 2:1 with a two-handed weapon. You will always PA at a rate of 4:1 when using power attack. Leap attack multiplies a base number. It does NOT directly modify the ratio itself, instead it directly triples the EXTRA DAMAGE. Not gives you a ratio of 3:1. There is no multiplier to the ability present other than the one from leap attack. SPA is simply an improved ratio at which you trade AB. It's the ability itself, not a multiplier of that ability. Ergo, as I noted before, the crit stacking rules do not apply.

Solely for purposes of the discussion, the relevant portions of text can be found below :

Leap attack: If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from power attack.

Supreme Power Attack: A 10th level Frenzied Berserker gains a(excised info on one-handed, replaced with two-handed info) +4 bonus on her melee damage rolls for every -1 penalty she takes on her melee attack rolls when using the Power Attack feat.

The extra damage is plus 4. Not plus 2 or plus 1.

And my point about one-handed weapons was exactly that. If you assume that crit stacking rules apply, then what happens is that the ability heavily favors using a one-handed weapon over a two-hander. Cause a shield or other item could be much more useful than an extra times 2.
EvilVegan
08-28-07, 01:03 PM It does not. As I noted before, SPA REPLACES the ratio from PA. You can no longer PA at a rate of 2:1 with a two-handed weapon. You will always PA at a rate of 4:1 when using power attack. Leap attack multiplies a base number. It does NOT directly modify the ratio itself, instead it directly triples the EXTRA DAMAGE. Not gives you a ratio of 3:1. There is no multiplier to the ability present other than the one from leap attack. SPA is simply an improved ratio at which you trade AB. It's the ability itself, not a multiplier of that ability. Ergo, as I noted before, the crit stacking rules do not apply.

Solely for purposes of the discussion, the relevant portions of text can be found below :

Leap attack: If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from power attack.

Supreme Power Attack: A 10th level Frenzied Berserker gains a(excised info on one-handed, replaced with two-handed info) +4 bonus on her melee damage rolls for every -1 penalty she takes on her melee attack rolls when using the Power Attack feat.

The extra damage is plus 4. Not plus 2 or plus 1.

And my point about one-handed weapons was exactly that. If you assume that crit stacking rules apply, then what happens is that the ability heavily favors using a one-handed weapon over a two-hander. Cause a shield or other item could be much more useful than an extra times 2.
Check the Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20050803a) on Leap Attack and frenzied berserker

Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% of the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

Page 35: Frenzied Berserker's Improved Power Attack (class feature)The improved power attack class feature should read as follows:
Improved Power Attack: Beginning at 5th level, a frenzied berserker deals +50% the normal damage from her use of the power attack feat.
Page 36: Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack (class feature)
Supreme Power Attack: A 10th level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the power attack feat.

So. Normal two handed Power Attack +2x. +100% of normal from Leap attack (+2x). +100% of normal from Supreme Power attack (+2x). Combined (2x + 2x + 2x = +6x). x = amount deducted from attack roll.

And if you think what qualifies as "the normal damage from her use of the power attack feat" changes from +2x to +4x when you apply supreme power attack, please show that 2x = 4x

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
liquoriceanimal 08-25-07, 01:48 AM	I have found a really nice combo to make good damage with frenzied berserker: supreme power attack + leap attack. This gives me a 1:12 power attack. But does this work? Leap attack states that you do triple the extra damage with power attack.
Qube 08-25-07, 01:55 AM	nice, but not quite original. (splash in shock trooper: the penaltie goes to AC instead of attack ...)
StevenO 08-25-07, 09:21 PM	My reading would suggest only a 1:6 ratio. Reading Supreme Power Attack says it doesn't stack with PA while Leap Attack multiplies the damage from PA which some could argue makes them exclusive from each other. Of course the FAQ may say 1:12 is correct but I'd just use the typical addition of multipliers instead.
Nephlite 08-26-07, 11:47 AM	My reading would suggest only a 1:6 ratio. Reading Supreme Power Attack says it doesn't stack with PA while Leap Attack multiplies the damage from PA which some could argue makes them exclusive from each other. Of course the FAQ may say 1:12 is correct but I'd just use the typical addition of multipliers instead. Niope, Supreme PA stack with PA. Or rather changes the PA damage. Leap Attack works off SPA's new number.
Someone 08-26-07, 01:03 PM	You can achieve similar results with Spirited Charge and two-handing a lance. In either case, that's quite a few feats to have picked up by 16 level or so (FB gets supreme power attack at 10th?), so you might have to multiclass into fighter for a bit to get them all.
Spikes01k 08-26-07, 11:57 PM	There seems to be one of these every few days.... sigh. The proper ratio, form WoTC its self, is leap attack setts the ratio for a two handed weapon to 1:3 not 1:6. Supreme does double this to 1:6 not 1:12. If you don't agree with me then fine, call their 1800 number or E-mail them and get the same answer.
Tedronai 08-27-07, 12:52 AM	Though it would seem that using the D&D multiplier stacking rules (not that this is strictly a multiplier, just for all intents and purposes) would put the final outcome at 1:5
Someone 08-27-07, 01:00 AM	The problem is that they are modifying different things. Supreme power attack multiplies the rate at which power attack trades to hit bonus for damage. Leap attack multiplies the total damage, PA included. So technically, you're not getting a 12 to 1 power attack ratio, your just doing triple damage with however much your 4:1 power attack did.
Spikes01k 08-27-07, 10:17 AM	Though it would seem that using the D&D multiplier stacking rules (not that this is strictly a multiplier, just for all intents and purposes) would put the final outcome at 1:5 The main problem here is that leap attack does not multiply the damage of a two handed weapon it simply sets the damage to 1:3.
ravenshrike 08-27-07, 12:53 PM	There seems to be one of these every few days.... sigh. The proper ratio, form WoTC its self, is leap attack setts the ratio for a two handed weapon to 1:3 not 1:6. Supreme does double this to 1:6 not 1:12. If you don't agree with me then fine, call their 1800 number or E-mail them and get the same answer. Custserv is about as reliable as a Chery Amulet((Chery Amulet) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQGAK550LE). Think of Leap Attack as a Function and PA as a variable declared ByVal it calls for when used. Whereas Frenzy is a subroutine that runs once the FB hits 10th level that modifies the variable that Leap Attack calls. Ergo, leap attack triples the 4:1 ratio, making it 12:1. This is not a crit, and therefore crit stacking rules do not apply. Not to mention that if crit stacking rules DO apply, than with the errata'd Leap attack it would become more advantageous to use SPA with a 1 handed weapon as the errata'd LA adds +100%(not a multiplier) to your power attack damage, which means that you would do 4:1 vs a twohanders 5:1. This would leave your other arm for a shield with some nice enchantments on it.
Spikes01k 08-27-07, 01:02 PM	Custserv is about as reliable as a Chery Amulet((Chery Amulet) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQGAK550LE). Think of Leap Attack as a Function and PA as a variable declared ByVal it calls for when used. Whereas Frenzy is a subroutine that runs once the FB hits 10th level that modifies the variable that Leap Attack calls. Ergo, leap attack triples the 4:1 ratio, making it 12:1. This is not a crit, and therefore crit stacking rules do not apply. Not to mention that if crit stacking rules DO apply, than with the errata'd Leap attack it would become more advantageous to use SPA with a 1 handed weapon as the errata'd LA adds +100%(not a multiplier) to your power attack damage, which means that you would do 4:1 vs a twohanders 5:1. This would leave your other arm for a shield with some nice enchantments on it. Sorry you just don't get it. Call the WoTC 1800 help number or e-mail them your self. I did and every time they give me the same answer. There is a new rule that states that multipliers do not stack where instead they gain a high multiplier. So if on ability grants you a x2 damage, another bonus granting x2 damage makes it x3 damage, not x4. Leap attack does not grant a multiplier it resets the ratio from 1:2 to 1:3, so when you apply supreme power attack it makes it 1:6. P.S. You are also missing that the +100% damage language only applies to a one handed weapon. The part referring to a two handed weapon remains the same even after the errata.
Patinho_Amarelo 08-27-07, 02:56 PM	Regular PA With THW - 1:2 PA With THW and LP - 1:6 or 1:4 ??? SPa With THW and LP - 1:12 or 1:6 ??
Spikes01k 08-27-07, 02:58 PM	Regular PA With THW - 1:2 PA With THW and LP - 1:6 or 1:4 ??? SPa With THW and LP - 1:12 or 1:6 ?? PA with THW and LA- 1:3
StevenO 08-27-07, 03:00 PM	PW with THW and LP = 1:3 ratio, deal triple extra power attack damage where power attack damage = attack penalty.
EvilVegan 08-27-07, 03:08 PM	Find a way to get pounce. I hope your party likes being a puddle of goo. The errata on Leap attack states it improves it power attack by +50%. Normal two-handed PA is 1:2, improved 50% is 1:3. Frenzied Berserker doubles power attack benefit, so either it makes the initial PA 1:4 and then leap attack adds 50% (making it 1:6) or leap attack improves it to 1:3 and then FB doubles it (making it 1:6). If you apply both simultaneously (+150%) you get the 1:5 you'd expect from "stacking multipliers", but that isn't the accepted method of applying percentage based modifiers (+100% is not the same as x2 in D&D for some reason). Anyway, get pounce.
Spikes01k 08-27-07, 08:19 PM	Find a way to get pounce. I hope your party likes being a puddle of goo. The errata on Leap attack states it improves it power attack by +50%. Normal two-handed PA is 1:2, improved 50% is 1:3. Frenzied Berserker doubles power attack benefit, so either it makes the initial PA 1:4 and then leap attack adds 50% (making it 1:6) or leap attack improves it to 1:3 and then FB doubles it (making it 1:6). If you apply both simultaneously (+150%) you get the 1:5 you'd expect from "stacking multipliers", but that isn't the accepted method of applying percentage based modifiers (+100% is not the same as x2 in D&D for some reason). Anyway, get pounce. Yes, champion variant of barbarian is nice. (Complete Champion)
ravenshrike 08-28-07, 12:25 PM	Sorry you just don't get it. Call the WoTC 1800 help number or e-mail them your self. I did and every time they give me the same answer. There is a new rule that states that multipliers do not stack where instead they gain a high multiplier. So if on ability grants you a x2 damage, another bonus granting x2 damage makes it x3 damage, not x4. Leap attack does not grant a multiplier it resets the ratio from 1:2 to 1:3, so when you apply supreme power attack it makes it 1:6. P.S. You are also missing that the +100% damage language only applies to a one handed weapon. The part referring to a two handed weapon remains the same even after the errata. It does not. As I noted before, SPA REPLACES the ratio from PA. You can no longer PA at a rate of 2:1 with a two-handed weapon. You will always PA at a rate of 4:1 when using power attack. Leap attack multiplies a base number. It does NOT directly modify the ratio itself, instead it directly triples the EXTRA DAMAGE. Not gives you a ratio of 3:1. There is no multiplier to the ability present other than the one from leap attack. SPA is simply an improved ratio at which you trade AB. It's the ability itself, not a multiplier of that ability. Ergo, as I noted before, the crit stacking rules do not apply. Solely for purposes of the discussion, the relevant portions of text can be found below : Leap attack: If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from power attack. Supreme Power Attack: A 10th level Frenzied Berserker gains a(excised info on one-handed, replaced with two-handed info) +4 bonus on her melee damage rolls for every -1 penalty she takes on her melee attack rolls when using the Power Attack feat. The extra damage is plus 4. Not plus 2 or plus 1. And my point about one-handed weapons was exactly that. If you assume that crit stacking rules apply, then what happens is that the ability heavily favors using a one-handed weapon over a two-hander. Cause a shield or other item could be much more useful than an extra times 2.
EvilVegan 08-28-07, 01:03 PM	It does not. As I noted before, SPA REPLACES the ratio from PA. You can no longer PA at a rate of 2:1 with a two-handed weapon. You will always PA at a rate of 4:1 when using power attack. Leap attack multiplies a base number. It does NOT directly modify the ratio itself, instead it directly triples the EXTRA DAMAGE. Not gives you a ratio of 3:1. There is no multiplier to the ability present other than the one from leap attack. SPA is simply an improved ratio at which you trade AB. It's the ability itself, not a multiplier of that ability. Ergo, as I noted before, the crit stacking rules do not apply. Solely for purposes of the discussion, the relevant portions of text can be found below : Leap attack: If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from power attack. Supreme Power Attack: A 10th level Frenzied Berserker gains a(excised info on one-handed, replaced with two-handed info) +4 bonus on her melee damage rolls for every -1 penalty she takes on her melee attack rolls when using the Power Attack feat. The extra damage is plus 4. Not plus 2 or plus 1. And my point about one-handed weapons was exactly that. If you assume that crit stacking rules apply, then what happens is that the ability heavily favors using a one-handed weapon over a two-hander. Cause a shield or other item could be much more useful than an extra times 2. Check the Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20050803a) on Leap Attack and frenzied berserker Page 110: Leap Attack The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows: If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% of the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. Page 35: Frenzied Berserker's Improved Power Attack (class feature)The improved power attack class feature should read as follows: Improved Power Attack: Beginning at 5th level, a frenzied berserker deals +50% the normal damage from her use of the power attack feat. Page 36: Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack (class feature) Supreme Power Attack: A 10th level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the power attack feat. So. Normal two handed Power Attack +2x. +100% of normal from Leap attack (+2x). +100% of normal from Supreme Power attack (+2x). Combined (2x + 2x + 2x = +6x). x = amount deducted from attack roll. And if you think what qualifies as "the normal damage from her use of the power attack feat" changes from +2x to +4x when you apply supreme power attack, please show that 2x = 4x