Frenzied Berserker - Resist Killing Innocent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Frenzied Berserker - Resist Killing Innocent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jadehawk
03-16-07, 01:14 PM The major trouble with Frenzied Berserker is that to drop out of it you need to make a DC 20 will save. You also have to roll this save to avoid going into it automatically when hit for damage. The problem is, if you can't get out of it, and all your enemies are down, you now attack the closest living creature to you...fellow party members, innocent bystanders, fluffy kittens...

This part of Frenzied Berserker is an anomaly in the game, with no comparable disadvantage in the D&D Universe (of which I know anyways). Now of course this is used to offset the benefits of the Frenzy ability, which is rather awesome, but it seems to go overboard. I suggest characters should be able to burn a feat to help avoid this. I suggest:

Focused Frenzy
Prereqs: Frenzy ability, Iron Will
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves to resist entering Frenzy and to end Frenzy early. You do not automatically fail this save on a natural 1.

So to make sure you never fail you would need a will save of +19 or better. With Focused Frenzy +2, Iron Will +2, and the Will Bonus from Rage +2, that means you need a will save bonus otherwise of +13, and Will is a bad save for both Barbarian and Frenzied Berserker. With a high Wisdom of 20 (+5) that means a base save of +8 which I don't think you would attain with Barbarian 10 / Frenzied Berserker 10. Strength and Constitution are the more important abilities for such a character, so any character would be hardpressed to develop wisdom to make this feat an automatic save...but maybe the right character at a high enough level...
ManinBlaq
03-17-07, 01:36 PM This is achievable, already through official products.

There's a feat from Races of Destiny .. humans only, that allows you to reroll a failed saving throw 1/day. (Called Protected Destiney ..or something similiar, which I felt was really fitting).

There are also some obscure items, a consumable necklace that allows you to reroll failed saves up to 9 times before it's used up. Not too expensive ...it's along the lines of a +3 weapon.

Of course there's also the luck blade.

Basically, the frenzied berseker has some extreme caveats, however his limitations can still be overcome if the players/group are mature and capable.

Giving the player a single feat to drastically overcome the one major weakness of the FB .. just cheapens the class overall.

I had a 10th level FB build that had a base will save of +20, and the means to alleviate the consequences of rolling a 1.

All of his feats, and the majority of his equipment was dedicated to it ... banking that his class features were enough to make him a badass (and he was).
jadehawk
03-19-07, 11:47 AM Will save +20? Congrats. The way I see my character going he won't have +19 till epic, as it is a bad save for all his classes, though he does have a decent Wisdom of 16. My major concern is that this frenzy question is a form of character development. My character is mixing War Mind with Frenzied Berserker (obviously having some difficulties manifesting his powers ahead of time before he drops into a frenzied rage). He was politely asked to leave his tribe as he was developing odd characteristics (psionics, like uncontrollably growing larger) that were not decipherable with their magic. That added to his uncontrollable rage were creating problems.

He left, in search for an answer to focus his rage. I have looked into certain magic items to help (indeed the luck blade or luck feats came up), but I still find it important that it actually be him, and not his equipment, that overcomes this trouble.

Perhaps the no autofail is too much and I should adjust it to a single re-roll on a failed attempt once per frenzy.
chucky
03-19-07, 12:24 PM This exactly why there are no high lvl FB without major cheating to get him there:) One drunk in a bar hitting it and you get a town full of dead people and a FB who is now a mass murderer.

When you frenzy you essentially turn psychotic for the duration. You dont care who or what it is thats around you, you just want it dead.

Your gm is going to have to be very very nice to you to let your char live long enough to get the items to actually raise his will saves to the point where he is not a threat to the party every fight. Remember a 1 auto fails on will saves....
jadehawk
03-19-07, 12:50 PM Well, he's only going to do about half of frenzied berserker, and closer to the end of his levels so I hope to have a strong will save before that. And yes, I do understand that many innocent puppies are likely to get crushed by my character. I just want to bridge the gap a bit more and feel burning a feat isn't excessive.

Heck, Iron Will gives you a +2 unnamed bonus to all will saves...I'm just trying to get a +2 to avoid dropping into and to help dropping out of Frenzy, and something like a reroll opportunity for failed saves.
bloodtalon
03-19-07, 06:36 PM for me i see no promblem
most of the people who are Frenzied Berserkers were the ones being hunted down by the good guys or the bad guys when the group played them
and it is fun sometyimes to be a single minded killing machine makes it easy not worrying about if it is right or wrong

i.e. if it is there kill it
ManinBlaq
03-20-07, 12:40 PM Will save +20? Congrats. The way I see my character going he won't have +19 till epic, as it is a bad save for all his classes, though he does have a decent Wisdom of 16. My major concern is that this frenzy question is a form of character development. My character is mixing War Mind with Frenzied Berserker (obviously having some difficulties manifesting his powers ahead of time before he drops into a frenzied rage). He was politely asked to leave his tribe as he was developing odd characteristics (psionics, like uncontrollably growing larger) that were not decipherable with their magic. That added to his uncontrollable rage were creating problems.

He left, in search for an answer to focus his rage. I have looked into certain magic items to help (indeed the luck blade or luck feats came up), but I still find it important that it actually be him, and not his equipment, that overcomes this trouble.

Perhaps the no autofail is too much and I should adjust it to a single re-roll on a failed attempt once per frenzy.

Good flavor ... keep in mind that the more you multiclass, the worse your off saves are gonna be.

I cheated somewhat, my toon was a Paladin of Freedom build -- the frenzied bersker aspect was a dark and horrible curse placed upon him. He was aware of that terrible hatred consuming him, and so he sought anything to either free him of the curse or at least ... control / suppress it.

One thing that comes to mind, is the Combat Focus feats from PH2.

If taking a few of those will give you another +2 will save, and eventually mature to a +4 will save.

Granted it 'sounds' bad .. "A Frenzied Bersker taking Combat Focus .. WTF??"

But it's not based on concentration .. it's just boils down to really being in the 'zone' ... and you do have to admit, nothing is more focused on killing than an FB.
jadehawk
03-20-07, 03:25 PM Thanks Maninblaq. I'll give the combat focus feats a look when I get home.
malignor
03-20-07, 05:51 PM Could also just have the party Cleric cast Mark of Justice on you, triggered when you make an offensive action against an ally. Since it has the effect of Bestow Curse, it can work in all sorts of ways, depending on what your DM allows.

In my game, the idea of a Calm Emotions effect was the result of the Curse.

So essentially, whenever the FB would lose it, he would slaughter all the enemies and, if he subsequently failed his save, he would instead burn off the Mark and become calmed instantly.

Another idea would be to inflict Blindness as a curse effect. This would sure reduce his chances of harming PCs.
Averroes
03-20-07, 06:03 PM We are going to be starting a campaign with a FB in it here soon.
I have a question, does the FB get to make a will save every round or only once?
Either way I'm a summoning druid and I plan on keeping him busy with a dire bear or something else with a block of HP he has to work though, or chase around.
Darth Sephiroth
03-20-07, 06:08 PM isn't there a feat in BoED that does this sort of thing already
jadehawk
03-20-07, 06:33 PM We are going to be starting a campaign with a FB in it here soon.
I have a question, does the FB get to make a will save every round or only once?
Either way I'm a summoning druid and I plan on keeping him busy with a dire bear or something else with a block of HP he has to work though, or chase around.

He gets to roll 1/rd he wants to drop out, and of course is subject to just falling out when his 3 + con modifier rounds end. Note that the frenzy also triggers when the berserker is dealt damage, though the berserker may roll a will save to resist.
Part-Human2
03-20-07, 06:47 PM isn't there a feat in BoED that does this sort of thing already

The Righteous Wrath feat (BoED) is better than the feat you made, as long as the DM considers Frenzy = Rage.
JackalNZ
03-20-07, 07:06 PM Where does it say in the frenzy description that opponents must be killed? Unless your definition of 'to best of ability' removes the option for non-lethal attacks.
grimreapercactus
03-20-07, 11:54 PM Every barbarian and/or frenzied berserker should consider these two feats:

Endurance (PH) + Steadfast Determination (PHII)

This will give you your (enormous) CON bonus to Will saves instead of WIS. Steadfast Determination is, imo, the only reason to ever take Endurance, so its even better if you can get Endurance as a bonus feat (Ranger 2, etc).

Now you just need a reliable way to not fail on a 1.
RobbyPants
03-21-07, 11:35 AM I don' think I've seen it mentioned yet...

IIRC, there's a feat in PHBII called Indomitable Will, that gives you a 2nd shot at Will saves. Now, I can't remember if there are specific limiations to when it can be used or not (or for that matter, maybe I'm mixed up on how it works). Still, if it does, a 2nd crack at that Will save can only be a good thing.
jadehawk
03-21-07, 11:56 AM Every barbarian and/or frenzied berserker should consider these two feats:

Endurance (PH) + Steadfast Determination (PHII)

This will give you your (enormous) CON bonus to Will saves instead of WIS. Steadfast Determination is, imo, the only reason to ever take Endurance, so its even better if you can get Endurance as a bonus feat (Ranger 2, etc).

Now you just need a reliable way to not fail on a 1.

I did give Steadfast Determination a look, and it is a key feat I use to balance my confident warrior types who are short on wisdom. Unfortunately the difference between my character's constitution and wisdom during a rage is only +2 (as wisdom is a useful stat for my character's psionic abilities). This hardly makes two feats worth it, though any character who finds a reason to pick up endurance and has a high con - low wis should definitely pick up Steadfast Determination. Heck, on the side it allows no autofailing constitution checks.
jadehawk
03-21-07, 11:57 AM I don' think I've seen it mentioned yet...

IIRC, there's a feat in PHBII called Indomitable Will, that gives you a 2nd shot at Will saves. Now, I can't remember if there are specific limiations to when it can be used or not (or for that matter, maybe I'm mixed up on how it works). Still, if it does, a 2nd crack at that Will save can only be a good thing.

Indomitable Will? I think I shall give that a look too. Thanks

***I think you mean Indomitable Soul and unfortunately it only applies to fear and mind affecting will saves
jadehawk
03-21-07, 11:15 PM I checked in the Player's Handbook II for Combat Focus and didn't find it. What is it and where can I find it?
Chimaera2000
03-21-07, 11:26 PM It's after the general feats alongside the Divine feats. It has a picture of Regdar practicing with a greatsword on the second page.
jadehawk
03-22-07, 12:08 AM ahh thanks
Mrloki
03-22-07, 12:39 AM Indomitable Will? I think I shall give that a look too. Thanks

***I think you mean Indomitable Soul and unfortunately it only applies to fear and mind affecting will saves

I could be wrong but i do belive that frenzy/rage is mind affecting...
I'm pretty sure the spell "rage" is mind effecting. Although i can't prove it as i dun have a PH handy.
runestar
03-22-07, 01:49 AM I could be wrong but i do belive that frenzy/rage is mind affecting...
I doubt it, since undead can rage. The will save bonus is a morale bonus though, and will be blocked out in mindblank.

Or your whole party could just scramble up a rope trick and wait out the frenzy...:P
kelvinaw273
03-22-07, 02:53 AM And this is why the FB is banned from so many campaigns. It is the only class to inflict its own disadvantages on the rest of the party, and they are severe.

If you don't want to kill innocents, bystanders and your friends, don't take a Frenzied Beserker. Period.

I know this isn't really helpful, but sometimes the obvious answer needs stating.
runestar
03-22-07, 04:45 AM That doesn't mean we should just dump it aside, rather than examine if this drawback can be worked around.:)

If at the end of the day, not viable compromise exists, then it is still not too late to abandon it.
chucky
03-22-07, 08:23 AM Also dont expect to keep any kind of a "good" descriptor on your alignemnt for very long.

Every time you frenzy and murder people you have to justify to yourself why this was needed to be done or you will drive yourself mad.

Nobody forced the char to take the class. They took it voluntarily. So any actions they they do while under the effects of the class, aka mass murder, directly effects the char's alignment.

Unlike a person under mind control. If a mage does a dominate on a fighter and has it slaughter a town he is not the person in charge of his actions. He will not take a alignment shift for the towns death. The person controlling him will.

The only viable way to be a FB that expect to live very long is to bend the rules so many times they almost break. Take every feat/skill/item that allows you a better will save as much as you can. I think there is a manouver in the TOB that lets you make will save as a fort save and you dont fail on a 1also. That would be a very good idea to get also :)
jadehawk
03-22-07, 11:25 AM Thanks for the insight chucky. I am in fact playing a good character, but he's got that herculaen heel that he wants to do good things but screws up on occasion and does bad things on account of his temper...at which point he does things to attone for it. So I think I've got that part figured out.

I think the feat you are talking about is Steadfast Determination which has already come up. Unfortunately it is not rolling a fortitude save for will; it is only rolling constitution instead of wisdom on will saves. For my character it would turn into a +2 or +3 bonus while raging (depending how I play it out when he gets to his frenzy prestige class). Seeing that I would have to pick up Endurance as well just as a pre-requisite it is not quite worth it.

But then again, you are right that it has the added side effect of no auto fails on fortitude saves.
ferreon
03-22-07, 11:57 AM No, he means Moment of Perfect Mind, the Diamond mind maneuver which allows you to use a Concentration check instead of a will save.

Unfortunately, I think Frenzy means you aren't allowed to use the Concentration skill, though I could be wrong (AFB at the moment). However...the Iron Heart maneuver Iron Heart Surge should be workable
jadehawk
03-22-07, 01:06 PM No, he means Moment of Perfect Mind, the Diamond mind maneuver which allows you to use a Concentration check instead of a will save.

Unfortunately, I think Frenzy means you aren't allowed to use the Concentration skill, though I could be wrong (AFB at the moment). However...the Iron Heart maneuver Iron Heart Surge should be workable

You're right in that Berserkers can't concentrate. Where would I find the Iron Hear maneuver?
runestar
03-23-07, 12:41 AM Tome of battle, but I don't think a FB can use iron heart surge either.
It could in theory end your frenzy, but it requires a standard action to use, which in practice does not seem like the best use of your actions when you are supposed to be "attacking to the best of your ability".;)
kainpendragon
03-23-07, 10:28 AM there is a feat in PH2 that lets you use your con modifer instead of your wisdom mod for will saves. i can't remember the name of it but it makes a amulet of con a 3 way bonus you get fortsave increase, will save increase and more hp it is a must have for any warrior type.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jadehawk 03-16-07, 01:14 PM	The major trouble with Frenzied Berserker is that to drop out of it you need to make a DC 20 will save. You also have to roll this save to avoid going into it automatically when hit for damage. The problem is, if you can't get out of it, and all your enemies are down, you now attack the closest living creature to you...fellow party members, innocent bystanders, fluffy kittens... This part of Frenzied Berserker is an anomaly in the game, with no comparable disadvantage in the D&D Universe (of which I know anyways). Now of course this is used to offset the benefits of the Frenzy ability, which is rather awesome, but it seems to go overboard. I suggest characters should be able to burn a feat to help avoid this. I suggest: Focused Frenzy Prereqs: Frenzy ability, Iron Will Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves to resist entering Frenzy and to end Frenzy early. You do not automatically fail this save on a natural 1. So to make sure you never fail you would need a will save of +19 or better. With Focused Frenzy +2, Iron Will +2, and the Will Bonus from Rage +2, that means you need a will save bonus otherwise of +13, and Will is a bad save for both Barbarian and Frenzied Berserker. With a high Wisdom of 20 (+5) that means a base save of +8 which I don't think you would attain with Barbarian 10 / Frenzied Berserker 10. Strength and Constitution are the more important abilities for such a character, so any character would be hardpressed to develop wisdom to make this feat an automatic save...but maybe the right character at a high enough level...
ManinBlaq 03-17-07, 01:36 PM	This is achievable, already through official products. There's a feat from Races of Destiny .. humans only, that allows you to reroll a failed saving throw 1/day. (Called Protected Destiney ..or something similiar, which I felt was really fitting). There are also some obscure items, a consumable necklace that allows you to reroll failed saves up to 9 times before it's used up. Not too expensive ...it's along the lines of a +3 weapon. Of course there's also the luck blade. Basically, the frenzied berseker has some extreme caveats, however his limitations can still be overcome if the players/group are mature and capable. Giving the player a single feat to drastically overcome the one major weakness of the FB .. just cheapens the class overall. I had a 10th level FB build that had a base will save of +20, and the means to alleviate the consequences of rolling a 1. All of his feats, and the majority of his equipment was dedicated to it ... banking that his class features were enough to make him a badass (and he was).
jadehawk 03-19-07, 11:47 AM	Will save +20? Congrats. The way I see my character going he won't have +19 till epic, as it is a bad save for all his classes, though he does have a decent Wisdom of 16. My major concern is that this frenzy question is a form of character development. My character is mixing War Mind with Frenzied Berserker (obviously having some difficulties manifesting his powers ahead of time before he drops into a frenzied rage). He was politely asked to leave his tribe as he was developing odd characteristics (psionics, like uncontrollably growing larger) that were not decipherable with their magic. That added to his uncontrollable rage were creating problems. He left, in search for an answer to focus his rage. I have looked into certain magic items to help (indeed the luck blade or luck feats came up), but I still find it important that it actually be him, and not his equipment, that overcomes this trouble. Perhaps the no autofail is too much and I should adjust it to a single re-roll on a failed attempt once per frenzy.
chucky 03-19-07, 12:24 PM	This exactly why there are no high lvl FB without major cheating to get him there:) One drunk in a bar hitting it and you get a town full of dead people and a FB who is now a mass murderer. When you frenzy you essentially turn psychotic for the duration. You dont care who or what it is thats around you, you just want it dead. Your gm is going to have to be very very nice to you to let your char live long enough to get the items to actually raise his will saves to the point where he is not a threat to the party every fight. Remember a 1 auto fails on will saves....
jadehawk 03-19-07, 12:50 PM	Well, he's only going to do about half of frenzied berserker, and closer to the end of his levels so I hope to have a strong will save before that. And yes, I do understand that many innocent puppies are likely to get crushed by my character. I just want to bridge the gap a bit more and feel burning a feat isn't excessive. Heck, Iron Will gives you a +2 unnamed bonus to all will saves...I'm just trying to get a +2 to avoid dropping into and to help dropping out of Frenzy, and something like a reroll opportunity for failed saves.
bloodtalon 03-19-07, 06:36 PM	for me i see no promblem most of the people who are Frenzied Berserkers were the ones being hunted down by the good guys or the bad guys when the group played them and it is fun sometyimes to be a single minded killing machine makes it easy not worrying about if it is right or wrong i.e. if it is there kill it
ManinBlaq 03-20-07, 12:40 PM	Will save +20? Congrats. The way I see my character going he won't have +19 till epic, as it is a bad save for all his classes, though he does have a decent Wisdom of 16. My major concern is that this frenzy question is a form of character development. My character is mixing War Mind with Frenzied Berserker (obviously having some difficulties manifesting his powers ahead of time before he drops into a frenzied rage). He was politely asked to leave his tribe as he was developing odd characteristics (psionics, like uncontrollably growing larger) that were not decipherable with their magic. That added to his uncontrollable rage were creating problems. He left, in search for an answer to focus his rage. I have looked into certain magic items to help (indeed the luck blade or luck feats came up), but I still find it important that it actually be him, and not his equipment, that overcomes this trouble. Perhaps the no autofail is too much and I should adjust it to a single re-roll on a failed attempt once per frenzy. Good flavor ... keep in mind that the more you multiclass, the worse your off saves are gonna be. I cheated somewhat, my toon was a Paladin of Freedom build -- the frenzied bersker aspect was a dark and horrible curse placed upon him. He was aware of that terrible hatred consuming him, and so he sought anything to either free him of the curse or at least ... control / suppress it. One thing that comes to mind, is the Combat Focus feats from PH2. If taking a few of those will give you another +2 will save, and eventually mature to a +4 will save. Granted it 'sounds' bad .. "A Frenzied Bersker taking Combat Focus .. WTF??" But it's not based on concentration .. it's just boils down to really being in the 'zone' ... and you do have to admit, nothing is more focused on killing than an FB.
jadehawk 03-20-07, 03:25 PM	Thanks Maninblaq. I'll give the combat focus feats a look when I get home.
malignor 03-20-07, 05:51 PM	Could also just have the party Cleric cast Mark of Justice on you, triggered when you make an offensive action against an ally. Since it has the effect of Bestow Curse, it can work in all sorts of ways, depending on what your DM allows. In my game, the idea of a Calm Emotions effect was the result of the Curse. So essentially, whenever the FB would lose it, he would slaughter all the enemies and, if he subsequently failed his save, he would instead burn off the Mark and become calmed instantly. Another idea would be to inflict Blindness as a curse effect. This would sure reduce his chances of harming PCs.
Averroes 03-20-07, 06:03 PM	We are going to be starting a campaign with a FB in it here soon. I have a question, does the FB get to make a will save every round or only once? Either way I'm a summoning druid and I plan on keeping him busy with a dire bear or something else with a block of HP he has to work though, or chase around.
Darth Sephiroth 03-20-07, 06:08 PM	isn't there a feat in BoED that does this sort of thing already
jadehawk 03-20-07, 06:33 PM	We are going to be starting a campaign with a FB in it here soon. I have a question, does the FB get to make a will save every round or only once? Either way I'm a summoning druid and I plan on keeping him busy with a dire bear or something else with a block of HP he has to work though, or chase around. He gets to roll 1/rd he wants to drop out, and of course is subject to just falling out when his 3 + con modifier rounds end. Note that the frenzy also triggers when the berserker is dealt damage, though the berserker may roll a will save to resist.
Part-Human2 03-20-07, 06:47 PM	isn't there a feat in BoED that does this sort of thing already The Righteous Wrath feat (BoED) is better than the feat you made, as long as the DM considers Frenzy = Rage.
JackalNZ 03-20-07, 07:06 PM	Where does it say in the frenzy description that opponents must be killed? Unless your definition of 'to best of ability' removes the option for non-lethal attacks.
grimreapercactus 03-20-07, 11:54 PM	Every barbarian and/or frenzied berserker should consider these two feats: Endurance (PH) + Steadfast Determination (PHII) This will give you your (enormous) CON bonus to Will saves instead of WIS. Steadfast Determination is, imo, the only reason to ever take Endurance, so its even better if you can get Endurance as a bonus feat (Ranger 2, etc). Now you just need a reliable way to not fail on a 1.
RobbyPants 03-21-07, 11:35 AM	I don' think I've seen it mentioned yet... IIRC, there's a feat in PHBII called Indomitable Will, that gives you a 2nd shot at Will saves. Now, I can't remember if there are specific limiations to when it can be used or not (or for that matter, maybe I'm mixed up on how it works). Still, if it does, a 2nd crack at that Will save can only be a good thing.
jadehawk 03-21-07, 11:56 AM	Every barbarian and/or frenzied berserker should consider these two feats: Endurance (PH) + Steadfast Determination (PHII) This will give you your (enormous) CON bonus to Will saves instead of WIS. Steadfast Determination is, imo, the only reason to ever take Endurance, so its even better if you can get Endurance as a bonus feat (Ranger 2, etc). Now you just need a reliable way to not fail on a 1. I did give Steadfast Determination a look, and it is a key feat I use to balance my confident warrior types who are short on wisdom. Unfortunately the difference between my character's constitution and wisdom during a rage is only +2 (as wisdom is a useful stat for my character's psionic abilities). This hardly makes two feats worth it, though any character who finds a reason to pick up endurance and has a high con - low wis should definitely pick up Steadfast Determination. Heck, on the side it allows no autofailing constitution checks.
jadehawk 03-21-07, 11:57 AM	I don' think I've seen it mentioned yet... IIRC, there's a feat in PHBII called Indomitable Will, that gives you a 2nd shot at Will saves. Now, I can't remember if there are specific limiations to when it can be used or not (or for that matter, maybe I'm mixed up on how it works). Still, if it does, a 2nd crack at that Will save can only be a good thing. Indomitable Will? I think I shall give that a look too. Thanks ***I think you mean Indomitable Soul and unfortunately it only applies to fear and mind affecting will saves
jadehawk 03-21-07, 11:15 PM	I checked in the Player's Handbook II for Combat Focus and didn't find it. What is it and where can I find it?
Chimaera2000 03-21-07, 11:26 PM	It's after the general feats alongside the Divine feats. It has a picture of Regdar practicing with a greatsword on the second page.
jadehawk 03-22-07, 12:08 AM	ahh thanks
Mrloki 03-22-07, 12:39 AM	Indomitable Will? I think I shall give that a look too. Thanks ***I think you mean Indomitable Soul and unfortunately it only applies to fear and mind affecting will saves I could be wrong but i do belive that frenzy/rage is mind affecting... I'm pretty sure the spell "rage" is mind effecting. Although i can't prove it as i dun have a PH handy.
runestar 03-22-07, 01:49 AM	I could be wrong but i do belive that frenzy/rage is mind affecting... I doubt it, since undead can rage. The will save bonus is a morale bonus though, and will be blocked out in mindblank. Or your whole party could just scramble up a rope trick and wait out the frenzy...:P
kelvinaw273 03-22-07, 02:53 AM	And this is why the FB is banned from so many campaigns. It is the only class to inflict its own disadvantages on the rest of the party, and they are severe. If you don't want to kill innocents, bystanders and your friends, don't take a Frenzied Beserker. Period. I know this isn't really helpful, but sometimes the obvious answer needs stating.
runestar 03-22-07, 04:45 AM	That doesn't mean we should just dump it aside, rather than examine if this drawback can be worked around.:) If at the end of the day, not viable compromise exists, then it is still not too late to abandon it.
chucky 03-22-07, 08:23 AM	Also dont expect to keep any kind of a "good" descriptor on your alignemnt for very long. Every time you frenzy and murder people you have to justify to yourself why this was needed to be done or you will drive yourself mad. Nobody forced the char to take the class. They took it voluntarily. So any actions they they do while under the effects of the class, aka mass murder, directly effects the char's alignment. Unlike a person under mind control. If a mage does a dominate on a fighter and has it slaughter a town he is not the person in charge of his actions. He will not take a alignment shift for the towns death. The person controlling him will. The only viable way to be a FB that expect to live very long is to bend the rules so many times they almost break. Take every feat/skill/item that allows you a better will save as much as you can. I think there is a manouver in the TOB that lets you make will save as a fort save and you dont fail on a 1also. That would be a very good idea to get also :)
jadehawk 03-22-07, 11:25 AM	Thanks for the insight chucky. I am in fact playing a good character, but he's got that herculaen heel that he wants to do good things but screws up on occasion and does bad things on account of his temper...at which point he does things to attone for it. So I think I've got that part figured out. I think the feat you are talking about is Steadfast Determination which has already come up. Unfortunately it is not rolling a fortitude save for will; it is only rolling constitution instead of wisdom on will saves. For my character it would turn into a +2 or +3 bonus while raging (depending how I play it out when he gets to his frenzy prestige class). Seeing that I would have to pick up Endurance as well just as a pre-requisite it is not quite worth it. But then again, you are right that it has the added side effect of no auto fails on fortitude saves.
ferreon 03-22-07, 11:57 AM	No, he means Moment of Perfect Mind, the Diamond mind maneuver which allows you to use a Concentration check instead of a will save. Unfortunately, I think Frenzy means you aren't allowed to use the Concentration skill, though I could be wrong (AFB at the moment). However...the Iron Heart maneuver Iron Heart Surge should be workable
jadehawk 03-22-07, 01:06 PM	No, he means Moment of Perfect Mind, the Diamond mind maneuver which allows you to use a Concentration check instead of a will save. Unfortunately, I think Frenzy means you aren't allowed to use the Concentration skill, though I could be wrong (AFB at the moment). However...the Iron Heart maneuver Iron Heart Surge should be workable You're right in that Berserkers can't concentrate. Where would I find the Iron Hear maneuver?
runestar 03-23-07, 12:41 AM	Tome of battle, but I don't think a FB can use iron heart surge either. It could in theory end your frenzy, but it requires a standard action to use, which in practice does not seem like the best use of your actions when you are supposed to be "attacking to the best of your ability".;)
kainpendragon 03-23-07, 10:28 AM	there is a feat in PH2 that lets you use your con modifer instead of your wisdom mod for will saves. i can't remember the name of it but it makes a amulet of con a 3 way bonus you get fortsave increase, will save increase and more hp it is a must have for any warrior type.