Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Halloween Jack 06-12-07, 08:57 AM	I happen to be one of those people who think that the fighter is underpowered. Coincidentally, I've talked to people who don't like prestige classes as a general rule. I didn't really understand their point until I saw the Frenzied Berzerker. Here you have a prestige class which has features which every brute greatsword/greataxe-wielding fighter in his right mind would take, and which every two-handed fighter would want to learn. Yet the only way to acquire these features is by taking a class that's only for barbarians (why?) and which first requires you to take two sub-par feats which make you good at scaring people and breaking things (WHAT?) Now I think I understand why some people don't like prestige classes at all: There's an attitude that if an ability is cool or interesting, it needs to go to a prestige class instead of being something that a base class can take, especially if that base class is the fighter. Why not make Improved Power Attack, Supreme Cleave, and Supreme Power Attack fighter feats? It would give fighters some feats that are actually high-level class features, and which is logically the purview of the fighter. (Where's the logic in saying that in order to become a master of Power Attack, you have to be a barbarian and you have to take feats that make you good at intimidating people?)
Armoracia Rusticana 06-12-07, 09:52 AM	Because FB is scary fellow. If you let Fighter (or Warblade, of War Hulk) share his benefits without his drawbscks - that would be outrageously good for certain builds. Look, fighter is weak in general. But Ubercharger is not. And Warblade can pick fighter-only feats just fine. That's just a bad idea.
wonlee76 06-12-07, 10:52 AM	Generally, I agree there should be some high powered feats that are fighter only. Hoiwever, cherry picking some of the good prestige class abilities of frenzied berserker and avoiding the huge restrictions/down side of the Frenzied Berserker (namely frenzy and killing your fellow party members) is a bit cheap. If you run an epic game, I wouldn't mind seeing improved power attack and supreme cleave as epic fighter only feats (since epic is inherently cheesy to begin with). But as pre-epic fighter only feats, it seems just too good when you consider the massive penalties you're avoiding in the process.
Halloween Jack 06-12-07, 11:17 AM	Because FB is scary fellow. If you let Fighter (or Warblade, of War Hulk) share his benefits without his drawbscks - that would be outrageously good for certain builds. Look, fighter is weak in general. But Ubercharger is not. And Warblade can pick fighter-only feats just fine. That's just a bad idea.Well, the Warblade can already do that by taking Iron Heart Surge. A level of barbarian, enough Warblade levels to get IHS, and you're ready to be a Frenzied Berzerker. The only real deterrent is those two not-so-great feats you have to take. I actually wrote up stats for the features-as-feats; I'm not on my home PC right now, but I'll post them later. Maybe we could get around the problem of other classes taking them by stacking on the prerequisites-if the Warblade is willing to sacrifice his entire feat chain for it (giving up good feats like SG Warrior, and failing to "chain up" from the bleh bonus feats he gets from his class), let him have Supreme PA.
deviknyte 06-12-07, 11:29 AM	Well I can see you wanting the abilities frenzy berserker has. But these abilities should be accessable by some sort of specialization only. Your agruement is that all characters should have access to all class features?
deviknyte 06-12-07, 11:37 AM	Have you seen the Star Wars RPG: Saga Edition. It's hopefully not a complete forsight into fourth edition. But I reduced the number of classes and instead add lots of different paths one can take in each class. I think if done right this could be a great way to do things, but right now it looks like it will cause you to have to go through a lot of trouble to get the old class you wanted to play. (Not to mention I hate the n00b friendly rest of the book.
Halloween Jack 06-12-07, 12:39 PM	Your agruement is that all characters should have access to all class features?No, just ones that are fairly basic concepts that fit a character who only has the base class. An improved version of PA or Cleave certainly fits the bill. Lots of feats, such as many of the tactical feats, are far more particular and specialized and worthy of being made prestige class features than something as simple as an improved PA. BTW, here are the feats as I wrote them up yesterday: Improved Power Attack Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +10 Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus to damage for every -2 to attack rolls you take with the Power Attack feat (or +3 for every -1 penalty if using a two-handed weapon other than a double weapon). This does not stack with the regular effects of Power Attack. Special: A character may select Improved Power attack.as a fighter bonus feat. Supreme Cleave Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +8 Benefit: You may take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat. Special: A character may select Supreme Cleave as a fighter bonus feat. Supreme Power Attack Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Power Attack, Power Attack, base attack bonus +16 Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to damage for every -1 to attack rolls you take with the Power Attack feat (or +4 for every -1 penalty if using a two-handed weapon other than a double weapon). This does not stack with the regular effects of Power Attack or Improved Attack. Special: A character may select Supreme Power Attack as a fighter bonus feat. They're designed so that you must be the minimum level that a character would have to be to be getting these features from FB.
StruckingFuggle 06-12-07, 01:07 PM	Feats? I'm not sure. High level non-stacking Boosts? I could see that working...
Halloween Jack 06-12-07, 02:24 PM	You mean as in Martial Adept boosts? Possibly, but the point of making feats like these was to give fighters a buff without forcing them to play MA's.
StruckingFuggle 06-12-07, 03:46 PM	You mean as in Martial Adept boosts? Possibly, but the point of making feats like these was to give fighters a buff without forcing them to play MA's. But why should superior power attack capability be fighter-only? If anything else, if its to be the balliwick of any single class, it should be Barbarian-only. Seriously, why should the fighter be better at PA than any particular other warrior, especially the Barbarian? o.O
Lucas Blackstone 06-12-07, 05:47 PM	The fighter should be better then the barbarian at fighting because it is all the fighter does. Look at their skill lists. Look at their class ablities. A barbarian during downtime and whatever, is training to keep up his quickened pace, and to be able to avoid being flat footed, toughening his skin, and controlling and manipulating his rage. The fighter is um.....learning more fighter feats to fight better. That is the logic behind a fighter being better then a barbarian at fighting. It also applies to most, if not all other melee. ( though obviously you have to change the class features in the example )
deviknyte 06-12-07, 06:17 PM	They would make excellent fighter only feats. Along with Supreme Two(Multi)-Weapon Fighting. But I'd hate to see a Warblade get a hold of them or any other counts as a fighter class.
StruckingFuggle 06-12-07, 08:31 PM	The fighter should be better then the barbarian at fighting because it is all the fighter does. Look at their skill lists. Look at their class ablities. A barbarian during downtime and whatever, is training to keep up his quickened pace, and to be able to avoid being flat footed, toughening his skin, and controlling and manipulating his rage. The fighter is um.....learning more fighter feats to fight better. That is the logic behind a fighter being better then a barbarian at fighting. It also applies to most, if not all other melee. ( though obviously you have to change the class features in the example ) Yeeeaaah ... Still, nothing there answers the question of why the fighter is supposed to be specifically better than anyone else, notably the Barbarian, at "wild but damaging swings" (i.e., power attack).
Lady Maedhros 06-13-07, 12:52 AM	My comment is a little different - just skip the Supreme Cleave. Forget it. Throw it out. It's not worth a level 1 feat, much less level 8. The number of times when Cleave is applicable past third level is already vanishingly small - level-appropriate enemies just don't die in one hit anymore and if you're fighting chaff, inflict, mass or fireball is far more efficient. Then on top of that you want me to spend a feat slot on the incredibly off chance that if I do end up fighting a group of opponents who I can drop in one hit, that two small groups of them will end up in a position precisely ten feet apart, where I can threaten them all by making the right single five-foot step? As a quirky little class ability on top of cool stuff, it's nice icing, but as a feat, you'd get more usage out of Skill Focus. As for the power attack stuff.... I sympathize with the sentiment. I've spent an awful damn lot of time myself breaking down PrCs into feats fit for fighter consumption. The zerker doesn't fit, though. Two-handed power attack fighting is already the strongest melee path in the game. Getting 4:1 PA without the zerker isn't that hard, and a fighter who does so is actually pretty reasonable in damage potential, and can contribute pretty effectively to party combat. It's the sword-and-boarders, the TWFers, and the fighters who want to do anything, anything at all outside of combat who need help, not the greataxe-wielding Leap Attackers.
runestar 06-13-07, 05:28 AM	(Where's the logic in saying that in order to become a master of Power Attack, you have to be a barbarian and you have to take feats that make you good at intimidating people?) None, because I do not feel that it is enough to suggest that there is any necessary connection between improved power attack and intimidating. More likely, its FB prerequisites are there to enforce the game designer's impression of the role it is supposed to fill in. Imagine a raving lunatic who literally leaps into battle. When enemies hit him, he does not seem to notice that he is being hurt, and responds by hitting them back twice as hard. His shock tactics are enough to send lesser foes reeling in fear from the prospect of facing a seemingly "invincible" foe. It is possible that your improved power attack ability is somehow related to your rage/frenzy ability. Thus, a fighter alone might not be able to unlock the intricacies behind it, since he is unable to attain the mindset of a barb necessary to understand.
risner 06-13-07, 09:24 AM	Why not make Improved Power Attack, Supreme Cleave, and Supreme Power Attack fighter feats? Lets not do that and say we did. The reason for not doing so can be summed up in one word: Balance
Halloween Jack 06-13-07, 09:57 AM	Balance is the reason for making them feats in the first place. Care to articulate your point instead of just being smug?
Prince_of_Parkness 06-13-07, 10:10 AM	I think that a fighter's lst of CORE bonus feats can become quite dry, but if you apply other splat books a fighter is just as good as anyother class. Granted they're a little more simple than other classes but powerwise theres nothing wrong with them.
risner 06-13-07, 11:24 AM	Balance is the reason for making them feats in the first place. Care to articulate your point instead of just being smug? Well, it seems you didn't understand my clear point. Let me try again. A skill point is worth less than a feat. A feat is worth less than a class level. A class level is often worth less than a prestige class level. A class ability is often worth less than a pretige class ability. So, there is no balance way to take the F.B. class abilities and put that square peg in the round hole (feats) without significantly increasing the cost. Example, take one of the F.B. class abilities like: Improved Power Attack Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +10 It should be something like this: Improved Power Attack Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, FBPower, FBPower2, base attack bonus +10 Benefit: FB's Improved Power Attack ability. Does not stack with FBPower or FBPower2. FBPower Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack Benefit: You get +1 hitpoint on all Power Attacks. Does not stack with Improved Power Attack or FBPower2. FBPower2 Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack Benefit: You get +2 hitpoint on all Power Attacks. Does not stack with Improved Power Attack or FBPower. If you don't see this or agree, I can't help you. Go play the game with any house rule you wish.
Lady Maedhros 06-13-07, 02:23 PM	A skill point is worth less than a feat. A feat is worth less than a class level. A class level is often worth less than a prestige class level. A class ability is often worth less than a pretige class ability. The problem, dear neighbor, with this philosophy of yours, is that a feat is two class levels when it comes to fighters. Every two levels the fighter gets a feat; this means that for balance, a fighter's feat must be equal in power to the special abilities of two levels of any other class.
risner 06-13-07, 06:18 PM	The problem, dear neighbor, with this philosophy of yours, is that a feat is two class levels when it comes to fighters. Every two levels the fighter gets a feat; this means that for balance, a fighter's feat must be equal in power to the special abilities of two levels of any other class. I will politely disagree 100% with your logic. Shall we have tea?
JonnySpaz 06-13-07, 06:43 PM	Her logic is pretty sound. It seems like you didn't fully think through your scale if you disagree with someone 100% that uses it against you.
risner 06-13-07, 07:39 PM	Her logic is pretty sound. It seems like you didn't fully think through your scale if you disagree with someone 100% that uses it against you. Her logic is fundamentally flawed. A fighter class level provides the following: 50% chance of a feat (every other level) +1 BAB 60% chance of increase in fort saves (good save) 30% chance of increase in will/ref saves (poor save) 2+INT skill points It is silly to argue a feat is worth more than a Fighter level. What she doesn't recognize or acknowledge is that unique class abilities (like FB's Improved Power Attack) can only be provided by levels in FB normally. If you take those abilities, they will not translate into a single feat. They are worth class levels (and for some of the abilities they are worth many prestige class levels.)
Lady Maedhros 06-13-07, 10:36 PM	Pray tell, risner, what you just mentioned (apart from the feat, aka fighter's special class feature) that isn't also granted by a level of zerker? It's pretty silly to pretend that a class with the same skill points, same base attack bonus, same saves and a bigger hit die is at some kind of disadvantage to the Mighty Fighter when it comes to class features. (Behold, the special variant Godwin's Law of the WotC boards in action: any thread, given sufficient length, must eventually devolve into a Fighter thread.)
Muktar 06-13-07, 10:38 PM	Frenzied Berserkers are one of the most powerful PrC's in the game. So what if you have to make a will save to not attack your friends. Not that big of a deal. The upper versions of power attack is what actually makes it so powerful. With the right feats, you can be doing 6:1 damage/attack exchange. Sorry, as much as I want a fighter to have a buff, this PrC is already on my NO list of PrC.
Kextor 06-13-07, 11:04 PM	Originally Posted by Halloween Jack Why not make Improved Power Attack, Supreme Cleave, and Supreme Power Attack fighter feats Runestar has a valid point for leaving those three feats in the FB class. They match the flavor of FB. I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the attitude several of you have towards actually giving the fighter some powerful feats that bring him closer to par with the casters and ToB warriors. You say giving the fighter those feats is broken. I say: WHAT???!!!! Isn't the fighter the one that can't change into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon at lvl 20(Sorcerer or Wizard)? Or the heavily armored, full-BAB warrior who just gated in a powerful Solar to help him with a BBEG(Cleric)? Or a Huge Earth Elemental who just dropped a Storm of Vengeance to annihilate the enemy army(Druid)? And then there's ToB... The fighter isn't even close to being as powerful as a Warblade, let alone a Crusader. And you guys are talking about balance. It's almost as if some of you don't wish to see the fighter balanced against ToB or casting classes. Why is that?
Godly_Pk 06-14-07, 11:58 AM	Our Current DM has outlawed Frenzied Berserker. The simple fact is that at level 15 our party was going to slay a green dragon. He Ran Jump Power attacked and Crit'd for over 591 damage. Killed the dragon one hit. Our DM has to make SUPER OVERPOWERED challenges for the party just so we can do something. Things that grapple the barb and render him useless.
risner 06-14-07, 02:22 PM	level 15 our party was going to slay a green dragon. He Ran Jump Power attacked and Crit'd for over 591 damage. Improved Power Attack + Leap Attack = 4x = -1 for +4 -15 Power Attack = +60 damage 591 - 60*2 - 7*2 (2d6) = 457 damage from STR alone with a Greatsword at -15 to attack not counting STR modifier. So it wasn't a Greatsword. So it had to be a Scythe: 591 - 60*4 - 5*4 (2d4) = 331 damage from STR alone with a Scythe at -15 to attack (approximately 165 STR.) Ok, so 591 simply isn't possible from a Level 15 Frenzy Berserker without a minimum of 165 STR score. So he was Superman in blue tights? Also, how did he confirm against a Dragon with essentially +STR modifier? Well with 165 STR that is fine, but without absurd STR modifiers how did he hit and confirm at -15 from power attack?
Paper_Weasel 06-14-07, 02:48 PM	Improved Power Attack + Leap Attack = 4x = -1 for +4 Not quite. Improved Power Attack gives you x3 BAB to damage with a two-hander; Leap Attack likewise triples this extra Power Attack damage. This means that for a level 15 character full power-attacking, you have (15*3*3) 135 base power-attack damage. Not to mention this is a Frenzied Berzerker and is likely raging and frenzying; let's assume a strength of 30 (base 16+4 rage +10 Greater Frenzy). We now have 145 base damage. If we say our Berzerker has a scythe, that's 580 base damage on a crit, plus 2d4x4. That's easily enough to push damage over 591.
Muktar 06-14-07, 03:12 PM	It was most likely supreme power attack + leap attack = 6:1. It is very doable. I knew someone who did over 600pts of dmg with this combo. If it was only the lower version then it was still 5:1
Godly_Pk 06-14-07, 03:55 PM	Sorry. Rage Fury. Some Magic Armor ( totally just went blank )
Frugal 06-14-07, 04:47 PM	Not quite. Improved Power Attack gives you x3 BAB to damage with a two-hander; Leap Attack likewise triples this extra Power Attack damage. This means that for a level 15 character full power-attacking, you have (15*3*3) 135 base power-attack damage. Not to mention this is a Frenzied Berzerker and is likely raging and frenzying; let's assume a strength of 30 (base 16+4 rage +10 Greater Frenzy). We now have 145 base damage. If we say our Berzerker has a scythe, that's 580 base damage on a crit, plus 2d4x4. That's easily enough to push damage over 591. Nope, leap attack was changed to be +100% base PA damage, so -1 = +1 extra with a 1-hander or +2 extra with a 2-hander. Improved PA was likewise changed to +50%. So we get -1 = +3 from improved PA, then +100% from leap attack means -1 = +5. So -15 = +75.
risner 06-14-07, 08:30 PM	Not quite. Improved Power Attack gives you x3 BAB to damage with a two-hander; Leap Attack likewise triples this extra Power Attack damage. This means that for a level 15 character full power-attacking, you have (15*3*3) 135 base power-attack damage. Not to mention this is a Frenzied Berzerker and is likely raging and frenzying; let's assume a strength of 30 (base 16+4 rage +10 Greater Frenzy). We now have 145 base damage. If we say our Berzerker has a scythe, that's 580 base damage on a crit, plus 2d4x4. That's easily enough to push damage over 591. -1 for +1 for one handed -1 for +2 for two handed -1 for +3 for FB two handed -1 for +1 for Leap Attack (+100% normal damage) So without exploiting and ignoring the Errata you get: -1 for +3 (FB PA) and -1 for +1 (Leap Attack) = -1 for +4 I still have a hard time on the two 20's (one to hit and one to confirm the crit.) The only way you get to 580 damage is to intentionally ignore the errata which they went out of their way to spell it out clearly that you only add one 1x to the bonus damage.
Muktar 06-14-07, 11:40 PM	No, it is +2 for leap attack with a two-hander.
Halloween Jack 06-15-07, 08:30 AM	Our Current DM has outlawed Frenzied Berserker. The simple fact is that at level 15 our party was going to slay a green dragon. He Ran Jump Power attacked and Crit'd for over 591 damage. Killed the dragon one hit. Our DM has to make SUPER OVERPOWERED challenges for the party just so we can do something. Things that grapple the barb and render him useless.Or use flying creatures, anything that attacks that barb's relatively weak will save-there are ways to fight a character whose only specialty is doing a boatload of melee damage.
risner 06-15-07, 08:38 AM	No, it is +2 for leap attack with a two-hander. I disagree, but if we take that to be correct, I still don't see 591 points of damage: -15 for +15*5 = +75 from power attack STR 30 = +10 from STR (all rages included) 2d4+5 = +9 damage from weapon (+5 non epic) So, +9+10+75 = +94 damage Crit x4 = +376 damage Still not 591 damage. Plus the Barbarian has exactly 99.75% chance to embarrass himself by wasting his action and making himself a nice dinner for the Dragon?
Frugal 06-15-07, 08:43 AM	I disagree, but if we take that to be correct, I still don't see 591 points of damage: I agree that the 591 sounds unlikely or that something was done wrong but it's definitely -1 = -2 with leap attack. The +100% normal damage language is a little ambiguous but if you look at the Supreme Power Attack errata you'll see the exact +100% normal damage wording but then it proceeds to actually show an example of -1 yields +2 with a 1-handed weapon and -1 gives +4 with a 2-hander.
Maxxx 06-15-07, 09:24 AM	We had a similar situation once in our game, but the goliath barbarian 9/frenzied berserker 10 did it as a totally desperate move, we had a fight with a blue dragon and the dragon had already killed the group's rogue, wizard, and cleric with only the goliath and a bard still standing. The goliath berserker made a leap/power attack on the dragon and got a critical with his greathammer (had an item that could auto-confirm one crit per day and with a some spells of the cleric and wizard still in effect the dragon's AC was low enough that a 19 was enough and a threat on a greathammer of impact), he had around 690: Strength: 52 (20 (Base) + 4 (Level Up) + 6 (Item) + 8 (Mountain Rage + Reckless Rage Feat) + 10 (Frenzy) + 4 (Moral Bonus of some item from MIC) Full Power Attack: 38 (Two-Handed) + 38 (Supreme Power Attack, see errata plus exampel) + 38 (Leap Attack, errata has the exact same wording as the one for Supreme Power Attack thus it works the same) Thundering Greathammer of Impact +5 (Greater Magic Weapon): 20,5 (Average) +16 (non multiplied) Miscellaneous Items and Bonuses: ~ +10 Result: 4x(21 (Strength) + 114 (Power Attack) + 20,5 (Weapon Damage) +10 (various Items))=4 x 165,5 = 662 Plus the damage from Thundering and some good roll results he got to 690. Of course he only had an Attack Bonus of +35, thus it was crucial that the dragon's AC was already lowered by spells. +21 Strength + 4 (bard) + 5 (weapon) + 2 (charge) + 3 (misc. don't remember) = +35 As a side note, it was his last Critical Hit he ever made, until the end of the campaign he never had another one :) .
El_Machinae 06-15-07, 11:58 AM	The FB abilities work just fine as fighter-only feats. Let's look at what's required to get into FB: two useless feats. So, to make the FB abilities into fighter-only feats, give them two (nearly) useless prereqs for those fighter-only feats: Let's call them "Fighter level 4or Fighter level 8 and must be able to rage". In other words, make the feats a combination of barbarian levels + high level fighter. Without Frenzy, what does a FB get over top of the fighter? The FB gets a d12 An FB gets Diehard, Supreme Cleave, Improved Power Attack, Supreme Power Attack over ten levels. Basically four 'feats'. This is one less than the Fighter, who'd get five feats over the same time frame - but the FB gets a great HD. (If you wanted to play a 'sane' Frenzied Berserker, you could blow all your frenzies at the beginning of the day and just be a really good power-attacker. So if you made the feats "fighter-only" the fighter would not be able to Frenzy and would be a pretty good power attacker.)