Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wolfshade 10-30-07, 04:25 PM	Could a medium karakter without the powerful build trait, wield a pair of fullblades with: Monkey grip and Exotic weapon on the fullblade?
Karzach 10-30-07, 04:44 PM	No. Monkey grip ONLY applies to your primary hand.
Darth Sephiroth 10-30-07, 05:01 PM	I believe that you need Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting for that.
Wolfshade 10-30-07, 05:18 PM	So said karakter could do with if he had the Oversized Two-weapon fighting feat?
Ace_of_time 10-30-07, 05:32 PM	Full blade has to be used with two hands by med creatures. Large creature can use it in 1 hand if they take a minus on attacks. If you were considered large by powerful build you could as long as you take the minus off for both TWF and Using it in 1 hand. Over sized TWF only applies to 1 handed weapon in off hand and wouldn't apply to two handed weapons used in one hand. Only the weapons used in 1 handed. Monkey grip doesn't change the hands required to use the weapon just what size weapon you can use. You still have to use two hand. You would have to have powerful build. You could always take a few levels in monk and use unarmed strike as the off handed attack for TWF and get full str on the attack. But that only works with monk not the imp unarmed feat.
larry_the_titan 10-30-07, 06:51 PM	Could a medium karakter without the powerful build trait, wield a pair of fullblades with: Monkey grip and Exotic weapon on the fullblade? Nope. It doesn't work like that. But the ability to carry a fullblade is rather limited. I suggest you get another hobby since your sword of choice is only for the big guys. Also my answer isn't because I don't like the weapon its just that you are not able to do it.
risner 10-30-07, 10:13 PM	Could a medium karakter without the powerful build trait, wield a pair of fullblades with: Monkey grip and Exotic weapon on the fullblade? No No and No No, the weapon is a Large weapon and not usable with Monkey Grip. No, Monkey Grip doesn't work for off hand. No, you can't use a Large weapon in the off-hand even if Monkey Grip worked.
Alcalientre 10-30-07, 10:27 PM	I'm not reading anything in this thread but the title, and the answer is: NO!
StruckingFuggle 10-30-07, 10:40 PM	No. Monkey grip ONLY applies to your primary hand. Where is that written? I don't see it in the feat description.
risner 10-31-07, 03:50 AM	Where is that written? I don't see it in the feat description. Read it again. "You cannot wield..."
TheKeyofE 10-31-07, 09:34 AM	Wolfshade, here's what you do: forget about the fullblade. Take your character with his powerful build trait, take Oversized Two-Weapon fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Wield two Large size bastard swords, which deal 2d8 each, same as a fullblade.
StruckingFuggle 10-31-07, 10:59 AM	Read it again. "You cannot wield..." ...Oh. That's asinine!
Wolfshade 10-31-07, 12:23 PM	Ok thanks to all of you for clearing that up
Krusk 10-31-07, 06:15 PM	also for future refrence, monkey grip and powerful build do not stack and cannot be combined.
Ace_of_time 10-31-07, 10:12 PM	also for future refrence, monkey grip and powerful build do not stack and cannot be combined. Not saying you're right or wrong but why don't they stack?
risner 10-31-07, 10:57 PM	Not saying you're right or wrong but why don't they stack? Because they point blank say they don't stack essentially. They both say "you may use a weapon one size larger than you are", which by definition doesn't stack. If one allows you to use Large, the other also allows you to use Large. Together they both allow you to use Large. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could imagine they would stack after reading the abilities, so I assume mose people thinking they stack have not actually read the abilities recently.
StruckingFuggle 10-31-07, 11:25 PM	They probably think so because them not working together is counterintuitive.
Ace_of_time 10-31-07, 11:32 PM	So your saying since they do the same thing they don't stack. But they don't do the same thing. And page 56 in race of stone says the powerful build does stack with powers, abilities, or spells that increase size. to me that means it would be A DM's call. Powerful build lets you be considered large for benefit but not the negative which include using bigger weapons. Monkey grip lets you use larger weapons but at -2 to your attack. So you are considered large for your feats, if it benefits you to be, so monkey grip would let you use huge weapons for your large sized creature at minus 2. Note: 1.Oversized TWF only counts for one handed weapon as off handed attack. 2. No I don't allow it in my game because my group and I decided it was to much like turning on a game shark.
risner 11-01-07, 06:31 AM	to me that means it would be A DM's call. Powerful build lets you be considered large for benefit but not the negative which include using bigger weapons. Monkey grip lets you use larger weapons but at -2 to your attack. So you are considered large for your feats, if it benefits you to be, so monkey grip would let you use huge weapons for your large sized creature at minus 2. Note: 1.Oversized TWF only counts for one handed weapon as off handed attack. 2. No I don't allow it in my game because my group and I decided it was to much like turning on a game shark. It is not a DM call, unless the DM initiates Rule 0 to rewrite what Powerful Build says. It does not make you considered Large for any effect related to weapons. I repeat, Powerful Build does NOT consider you Large for weapon damage. So Monkey Grip does not consider your size Large. So Monkey Grip does not allow you to use Huge by any stretch of the imagination. Every single debate on this issue results in showing the RAW is firm and unambiguous. If you believe otherwise after reading the text, post it. To conclude they stack you must: 1) Ignore RAW that they don't. 2) Ignore WotC saying they don't. 3) Ignore logic saying they don't.
risner 11-01-07, 06:45 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm Poweful Build rules: "subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check" Weapon size is not an opposed check. "considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks" Weapon size is not a special attack like swallow. "can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty" Weapons are weapons. So you are allowed to use a weapon one size larger than your size. "However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size" So his size remains the same, Medium. So when Monkey Grip comes along, what size does Monkey Grip think you are? Medium of course. What does Monkey Grip allow you to do? Use a weapon one size larger than your size. What is your size? Medium. What is one size larger? Large. Powerful Build allows you to use a Large weapon. Monkey Grip allows you to use a Large weapon. There is nothing to stack unless you rule 0 to change the Powerful Build to remove the "remain those of a creature of his actual size" text or otherwise allow the effect to consider you Large for weapon size effects which it currently doesn't do.
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 11:42 AM	Powerfull build let you be considered large for all the benefits. Powerful build: The physical Stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trips attempts), the goliath is treated as one size large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks beside on size (such as improved grapple or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subjects size category. He is consider large size for the use of weapons and monkey grip increases that to huge for a -2 penalty. And the RAW says he can do it already as long as he takes the minuses on attack. Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. Even without monkey grip he could use a huge fullblade at -4 in your view. All monkey grip would do was drop that to -2. Just to be clear a full blade is an exotic weapon that allows a person of one size lower to use it two handed with training, that why it's exotic. Most two handed weapons don't allow this. So a huge fullblade could be wielded by by a huge creature even though it is a bigger then huge weapon. He already took the exotic weapon prof feat for full blade. So he already wields a huge weapon but wants to wield on a Gargantuan full blade sized for huge creatures. That's why we outlawed it in our game. Nothing will allow him to wield it in one hand. Could you see a med creature wielding 2 huge two handed weapons one in each hand for two weapon fighting, wouldn't work.
CrazyGuy 11-01-07, 01:00 PM	Powerfull build let you be considered large for all the benefits. How do you get this? Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Many!=All Also, consider this logically-if they functioned in all ways as large, then why not just make them large, instead of inventing a whole new racial trait? The important text of powerful build, with relation to weapon sizes, is: can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty Hmmm... says nothing about counting as Large. Just says they can use large weapons without penalty. And Monkey Grip states: You may use a melee weapon one size category larger than you are... So-a creature can use a weapon one size larger than it is, without increasing the effort required. So when we put these together on medium creture, and add a huge Bastard Sword (which is the 3.5 version of a large Fullblade), we get: A weapon two sizes larger than the weilder. Powerful Build: Lets you weild a large-sized weapon without penalty. Wait-this is not a large weapon. Powerful Build has no effect. Monkey Grip: Lets you weild a large two-handed weapon in two hands, instead of being impossible. Problem: weapon is Huge, not Large. Monkey Grip has no effect. End result: You cannot weild this weapon.
Tordak 11-01-07, 02:15 PM	Crazyguy you got it all right, except maybe for one thing. Now I don't know what a fullblade is so I have one question : Is a large fullblade, which is a huge weapon from what I understand, designed for large creature? Like a bastard sword, for example, is a 2-handed martial weapon unless you have the exotic weapon feat, but it is designed for medium size. If the large fullblade is designed for large (even if it's really a huge weapon), than a goliath with the appropriate weapon proficiency should be able to weild it. That's the only maybe. Asside from that interogation of mine you're right, and everyone who says it doesn't stack is too. Powerfull built allow you to use weapon design for a creature one size category bigger than yours; you're not considered one size category larger, if you're medium you can use weapon design for large. Monkey grip allow you to use weapon one size category larger than you (the weapon is larger than you) with no extra effort BUT you still take the penalty for the weapon not designed for your size; this only mean you can use large weapon if you're medium, like a large long sword in one hand. For the purpose of the size of the weapon, it's the size given in the table as the intented size of the weilder (on top of the damage column), not the actual size of the object (else that would mean you could use a huge long sword 1-handed). However a medium character could use a large 2-handed weapon in 2 hands if he has powerful built, hence my question. I can't find it but i remember there was a 'ask wizard' on the D&D main page about the stacking of the 2 abilities and they clarified that it doesn't stack. I didn't think it needed to be clarified, but I admit it could be confusing if you read it quickly.
risner 11-01-07, 02:51 PM	He is consider large size for the use of weapons and monkey grip increases that to huge for a -2 penalty. False
Knightblde 11-01-07, 04:58 PM	Get Strongarm Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium. Take the EWP feat. You can now use both weapons, with hefty penalties. -6 Main hand - 10 off hand for fighting with two weapons If you have TWF it will be -4 main hand, -4 off hand Some people feel you get a -2 for using a wrong size weapon in one hand, I think the Bracers make up for it. Add sizing and morphing to your weapons and you have unlimited possibilities!
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 04:59 PM	Ok full blade is not a bastard sword. It is a large sword designed for use on a med creature as long as they are trained in it. A creature can't wield a large bastard sword but can wield a med fullblade two hand even though it is a large two hand sword. So even though it is a large weapon med creature can still use it as an exotic weapon with training. Fullblade is in the arms and eq guide and is not 3.5 but can be used in games if the DM lets it. There is no type of fullblade in 3.5 that I know of. Now back to topic. a large fullblade would in fact be a huge sword but could be wielded by a large creature and powerful build lets you wield any large weapon with no penaulty. What the OP wants is to be able to use both fullblades, one in each hand, with TWF. Which as far as I know, bar some magic item somewhere isn't possible. Now powerful build can't let you recive all the benefits of large because then you would have to take the down side. beside pluses to str the things list under powerfull build are about all the benefits of being large. The only more they could add is the penaulties for being large. It even says " the goliath is treated as one size large if doing so is advantageous to him." Now if there is another benefit not list in powerfull build that i missed please post it for me. thanks. As for the size of weapon that can be used. It was posted from SRD so it would be up to them to change it. I post all of what it said and don't a limit on how many. complete warrior would be consider a non core book.
mvincent 11-01-07, 05:14 PM	From the WotC Help database (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=992): "Since both abilities look back at your actual size, Monkey Grip and Powerful Build are redundant and do not stack. They both give you the ability to wield a weapon one size category larger than yourself, but neither actually increases your size." Regardless, strict RAW wasn't that clear on this, and many others had interpreted otherwise (and I've never faulted someone for doing so). Most people on this board had agreed that they didn't stack, and so it was put in the boards FAQ, but that was not really official. Still, many readers (incorrectly) believed it was in the official FAQ. Luckily, the writer of the custserv answer seemed to believe the same thing, and so the answer is now technically official.
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 05:19 PM	Get Strongarm Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium. Take the EWP feat. You can now use both weapons, with hefty penalties. -6 Main hand - 10 off hand for fighting with two weapons If you have TWF it will be -4 main hand, -4 off hand Some people feel you get a -2 for using a wrong size weapon in one hand, I think the Bracers make up for it. Add sizing and morphing to your weapons and you have unlimited possibilities! If he is using a med type of the fullblade. The entry says a large creature can wield it in one hand with penaulty. why can't he just use the bracers like this one said and take the minuses. That is only going to save -2. Using it in one hand is i think -4. So that would be -8 total.
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 05:24 PM	From the WotC Help database (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=992): "Since both abilities look back at your actual size, Monkey Grip and Powerful Build are redundant and do not stack. They both give you the ability to wield a weapon one size category larger than yourself, but neither actually increases your size." Why not just put "your actual size" in the entry and people alot of time? Why can't they just say what they mean?
mvincent 11-01-07, 05:29 PM	Why not just put "your actual size" in the entry and people alot of time? Why can't they just say what they mean?Possibly because D&D writers are imperfect beings.
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 05:45 PM	There is a diffence in making a misstake and assuming that someone is going to know that you say one thing mean another. It just would be nice for them to be alittle more clear. They even have two diferent places for this. One fixes mistakes and the other clears up things that were not made clear when written. It is like sometime they think we no all the rules by heart.
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 06:03 PM	How about this? Go monk 8th/ 1level any. Chose TWF, Imp NW, EWP fullblade and your set. A large monk gets 2d8 damge on unarm strike and you can use any part of your body as an off handed attack without taking your hands off the sword.
Toki_Wartooth 11-01-07, 06:46 PM	There is a diffence in making a misstake and assuming that someone is going to know that one thing mean another. It just would be nice for them to be alittle more clear.Pot/kettle/black
risner 11-01-07, 08:20 PM	Get Strongarm Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium. Works the same as Powerful Build and doesn't stack with PB. a large fullblade would in fact be a huge sword but could be wielded by a large creature and powerful build lets you wield any large weapon with no penaulty. It isn't a Large weapon, it is a Huge weapon. So PB won't allow your Medium self to use that Huge weapon designed to be used by a Large creature (that you are not.) Why not just put "your actual size" in the entry and people alot of time? Why can't they just say what they mean? They did say what they mean. In fact, I don't see how anyone can conclude otherwise. But that makes me imperfect.
Knightblde 11-01-07, 10:12 PM	Works the same as Powerful Build and doesn't stack with PB. It BASICALLY works like PB, but it is NOT the same as Powerful Build. It is true that it does not stack with PB. Now that we cleared that up, what does your statement have to do with my post? I was only pointing out a way to use a two handed weapon made for your size, with only one hand, hence allowing you to use two of them for TWF. Do you disagree with my post, and if so, why? My 'build' doesn't care if you can use Monkey Grip in your off hand, or if you have Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and also does not require Powerful Build, which I believe the OP cannot get. So I believe it give the OP everything that he is looking for, for just 6,000 gp.
risner 11-01-07, 10:44 PM	Now that we cleared that up, what does your statement have to do with my post? I was only pointing out a way to use a two handed weapon made for your size, with only one hand, hence allowing you to use two of them for TWF. Do you disagree with my post, and if so, why? Yes, because Strongarm Bracers don't allow you to use a weapon that way. A two handed weapon is a two handed weapon and nothing (PB, MG, or Strongarm) don't make it a one handed weapon. You are confused and thinking of the 3.0 way of weapon sizes.
Ace_of_time 11-01-07, 10:53 PM	Pot/kettle/blackI try to be as clear as I can with the books that I have. Most of the time it ends with someone telling me that that is what it says but that not what they are talking when they say that in the rules. I suppose this doesn't happen to you. the fullblade size: I didn't make the weapon and can only tell you what it says in the book. It is a large weapon that can be used by med creature with train. AKA EWP feat. But the size of the weapon it's self is large but made for med creatures to use. So a large full blade would be a huge weapon designed for a large creature to use but is really a huge weapon. To try to be clear. In the weapon table there would be a small damage and med damage but would say in the item entry to see description for special rules and under that it would say it is 1 size larger 2 handed weapon that can be used by one size lower creature with EWP feat. So A small fullblade would still be 2 handed and still could be used by small creatures but is really a med sized weapon. It say one size larger then you are, in monkey grip feat. And I'm supposed to assume that means your size and not the size you are considered to be. And last the Item that is be talked about says you can wield weapons as if you were one size large for weapons then normal. As opposed to, "A goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty." Maybe I was thinking of the bracers and mixed it up with the powerfull build. They look the same in words wise but the item mean you are consider larger where as the 2nd means that you can use weapon for large creatures. Funny the writers of that book where clear as to whether it stacks or not and didn't assume you would no it.
risner 11-02-07, 01:51 AM	1) the fullblade size: I didn't make the weapon and can only tell you what it says in the book. 2) It say one size larger then you are, in monkey grip feat. And I'm supposed to assume that means your size and not the size you are considered to be. 3) They look the same in words wise but the item mean you are consider larger where as the 2nd means that you can use weapon for large creatures. Funny the writers of that book where clear as to whether it stacks or not and didn't assume you would no it. Three errors you have there: 1) Fullblade is 3.0, so anything it says must be translated to 3.5 rules. 2) You are never considered Large for weapon use. Not with MG, not with PB, and not with Strongarm Bracers. So what makes you think about "the size you are considered to be?" 3) Again the Strongarm works the same, you may use a weapon one size larger than your size.
Someone 11-02-07, 02:08 AM	I may have missed something, but does PB only negate the to-hit penalty, and not the amount of effort increase for wielding a larger weapon? Because if so, all a goliath does is wield a large 1-hand in two hands, just without the usual -2 to hit penalty. In this case, PB and MG would stack because they affect different parts of the inappropriately sized weapon rules- the to hit penalty and effort to wield, respectively. Or, as I said, did I misread something about PB?
Tordak 11-02-07, 08:53 AM	I may have missed something, but does PB only negate the to-hit penalty, and not the amount of effort increase for wielding a larger weapon? Because if so, all a goliath does is wield a large 1-hand in two hands, just without the usual -2 to hit penalty. In this case, PB and MG would stack because they affect different parts of the inappropriately sized weapon rules- the to hit penalty and effort to wield, respectively. Or, as I said, did I misread something about PB? from SRD A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. It doesn't say to-hit penalty, but it does say penalty, not penalties. I still think that 'without penalty' means 'without drawback' (as in 'just use them as if they were design for the PB player's size category'), but you could be right. If you are, then in that case it would be worth it to get the MG feat with the PB ability. Still, I'm pretty certain (from all the faqs, quotes and examples of NPC) that you can wield weapons design for one size category larger just like a creature one size category larger wields it.
risner 11-02-07, 10:11 AM	In this case, PB and MG would stack because they affect different parts of the inappropriately sized weapon rules- the to hit penalty and effort to wield, respectively. Again, how could they stack when they both explicitly say "a Medium can use a Large weapon?"
Tordak 11-02-07, 11:07 AM	Only because one reduces the penalty, one reduces the effort. They would not be really 'stacking' then, they would just make it possible to use a weapon design for creature 1 category larger with no penalty and the 'same number of hands' (meaning with no additional effort), much like if you were yourself a large creature. You still coudn't get huge weapon, that much is certain. MG only fills the 'effort' part, which most people assumed is already part of the PB ability.
Ace_of_time 11-02-07, 11:16 AM	Powerful build: The physical Stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trips attempts), the goliath is treated as one size large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks beside on size (such as improved grapple or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subjects size category.It never says med on PB. PB depend on the creatures size. Anything that increases his/her size also allows him/her to use bigger weapon. So If you take the goliath and he gets as permanent enlarge spell cast on him his PB would allow him to use huge weapons and large weapons. I think MG works the same, size wise. Don't think ether say a size type just use what ever type the creature is. PB basicly lets a creature be consider large for weapon use. They thought they were being clear when they put,"Penalty", in there.
Tordak 11-02-07, 11:37 AM	It never says med on PB. PB depend on the creatures size. Anything that increases his/her size also allows him/her to use bigger weapon. ... .I think MG works the same, size wise. Don't think ether say a size type just use what ever type the creature is. Correct, if you get a real size increase, whether by a spell, application of template or other effect, you will be one size category bigger and both the feat and ability will apply to you with that size being the base size category for the duration of the effect. PB basicly lets a creature be consider large for weapon use. This is incorrect if taken litteraly (and it's says nothing about large, only about one size category larger). You can use weapon design for creature one size category larger than yours, so you are figuratively considered large(r). It's not an actual increase in size, meaning not the same as the above effect an does not mean your base size category is larger when applying the MG feat or PB ability to weapons. They thought they were being clear when they put,"Penalty", in there. I think you might need to go read the section on Innaproprietly sized weapons (here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize). You'd notice there are 2 points on the use of innaproprietly sized weapons, 2 'penalties'. One is an actual, literal penalty in term of D&D rules, that's a penalty in the form of a minus to a roll (attack roll). The other is a drawback to the use of these weapon, a penalty of sort but not in term of a 'minus' to a roll. That's an extended meaning of the word 'penalty' as defined by the usual rules. I'm not saying it's an incorrect interpretation (it was certainly mine) of the word 'penalty', but that it is 'clear' until someone brings it to your attention and brings a new point of view.
Knightblde 11-02-07, 11:15 PM	Yes, because Strongarm Bracers don't allow you to use a weapon that way. A two handed weapon is a two handed weapon and nothing (PB, MG, or Strongarm) don't make it a one handed weapon. You are confused and thinking of the 3.0 way of weapon sizes. You are mistaken. It is actually the Player Handbook that makes a Two Handed Weapon a One Handed Weapon. Here is how it all works together: Strongarm Bracers These allow you to use weapons as if you are one size larger. It does NOT say use weapons that are one size larger, which is what I think Powerful Build does. Fullblade 3.5 Conversion Exotic Two Handed Weapon. The player will require Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use this weapon (based on the descriptions that I have heard, I don't have this book.) Effort to Wield a Weapon According to the SRD: (and also in chapter 7 of the PHB, just may not be word for word) The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. Putting it all together: This example is for a medium character with a Two Handed Weapon they are proficient with (EWP, MWP, Simple Weapon, whatever.) The character is wearing Strongarm Bracers and now counts as Large and Medium at the same time (expressly stated in the description of the bracers.) As such a medium Fullblade now counts as a One Handed Weapon. The OP wanted to use one in each hand. The Character in the build I propose can use them in each hand with the two weapon penalties of -6/-10. If the character takes Two Weapon Fighting the penalties become -4/-4. If they take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting the penalties become -2/-2 ------------------------------------- Now I don't think any of that can be contested, but I will mention one thing that can be. If you are large, and use a medium weapon you suffer a -2 penality to its use do to unfamiliarity. A lot of people would add this to the above build. My group and I feel that because you can still also use medium weapons without penalty, you do not suffer this penalty. But I do give a nod to those that feel you do, as I cannot prove they are incorrect or that I am in fact correct myself. But that is my interpretation. ------------------------------------- If you really want to work your brain, forget fullblade, use a double weapon, add morphing and sizing, set each end with completely different properties throw in an Enlarge ring and sit back and think about what kind of crazy combos you can come up with. My favorite is to use a Huge Halberd when I am large and want reach or to hide a dagger, which gives you crazy bonuses to the check, and pull out a Large Elven Courtblade to carve up the unsuspecting guards!
Ace_of_time 11-03-07, 12:54 AM	Correct, if you get a real size increase, whether by a spell, application of template or other effect, you will be one size category bigger and both the feat and ability will apply to you with that size being the base size category for the duration of the effect. This is incorrect if taken litteraly (and it's says nothing about large, only about one size category larger). You can use weapon design for creature one size category larger than yours, so you are figuratively considered large(r). It's not an actual increase in size, meaning not the same as the above effect an does not mean your base size category is larger when applying the MG feat or PB ability to weapons. I think you might need to go read the section on Innaproprietly sized weapons (here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize). You'd notice there are 2 points on the use of innaproprietly sized weapons, 2 'penalties'. One is an actual, literal penalty in term of D&D rules, that's a penalty in the form of a minus to a roll (attack roll). The other is a drawback to the use of these weapon, a penalty of sort but not in term of a 'minus' to a roll. That's an extended meaning of the word 'penalty' as defined by the usual rules. I'm not saying it's an incorrect interpretation (it was certainly mine) of the word 'penalty', but that it is 'clear' until someone brings it to your attention and brings a new point of view. I never said you did get bigger. I said that you would be considered bigger for weapon use. We were talking about a med creature as I remember. That why I said large. If the creature increased in size or was large to begin with then he/she would be consider huge for weapon use. Main Entry: con·sid·er Pronunciation: \kən-ˈsi-dər\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): con·sid·ered; con·sid·er·ing \-d(ə-)riŋ\ Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French considerer, from Latin considerare to observe, think about, from com- + sider-, sidus heavenly body Date: 14th century transitive verb 1: to think about carefully: as a: to think of especially with regard to taking some action <is considering you for the job> <considered moving to the city> b: to take into account <defendant's age must be considered> 2: to regard or treat in an attentive or kindly way <he considered her every wish> 3: to gaze on steadily or reflectively 4: to come to judge or classify <consider thrift essential> 5: regard <his works are well considered abroad> 6: suppose intransitive verb : reflect, deliberate <paused a moment to consider> synonyms consider, study, contemplate, weigh mean to think about in order to arrive at a judgment or decision. consider may suggest giving thought to in order to reach a suitable conclusion, opinion, or decision <refused even to consider my proposal>. study implies sustained purposeful concentration and attention to details and minutiae <study the plan closely>. contemplate stresses focusing one's thoughts on something but does not imply coming to a conclusion or decision <contemplate the consequences of refusing>. weigh implies attempting to reach the truth or arrive at a decision by balancing conflicting claims or evidence <weigh the pros and cons of the case>.
risner 11-03-07, 02:02 AM	I never said you did get bigger. I said that you would be considered bigger for weapon use. We were talking about a med creature as I remember. That why I said large. If the creature increased in size or was large to begin with then he/she would be consider huge for weapon use. That is the point, you are nto considered Large. You may use weapons one size larger than your size. If your size is Medium, then that means you may use Large weapons. At no point (PB, MG, and Strongarm) are you considered Large for weapon use.
StruckingFuggle 11-03-07, 02:48 AM	That is the point, you are nto considered Large. You may use weapons one size larger than your size. If your size is Medium, then that means you may use Large weapons. At no point (PB, MG, and Strongarm) are you considered Large for weapon use. No, but it seems logical - fluffwise, not 'legally' - that you should be, functionally, from one of those abilities. Especially PB + MG.
Ace_of_time 11-03-07, 04:22 AM	That is the point, you are nto considered Large. You may use weapons one size larger than your size. If your size is Medium, then that means you may use Large weapons. At no point (PB, MG, and Strongarm) are you considered Large for weapon use. So when the entry for the item says "as if one size larger" that doesn't mean your considered large if you are a med creature? How would you word it then?:confused: :confused: :confused: When wearing strongarm bracers, you can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal. (you don't take any penalty when using weapons as normal for your size) That kind of sounds like you're considered large for weapons to me?
Knightblde 11-03-07, 07:34 AM	That is the point, you are nto considered Large. You may use weapons one size larger than your size. If your size is Medium, then that means you may use Large weapons. At no point (PB, MG, and Strongarm) are you considered Large for weapon use. Go back and reread Stronarm Bracers, page 139, MIC. Your understanding of the Bracers is incorrect. Also, with PB doesn't it start by saying you count as one size larger for a lot of things, then list using large weapons as one of those things? I know it is not in the same sentence, but it is under the same heading. I believe that this means that while using weapons you count as large. But I don't play with PB, so I am not familiar with it. Either way get the idea that Strongarm Bracers are just a limited version of PB out of your head. It is a common first impression, but an incorrect one. Happy Gaming!
Tordak 11-03-07, 10:12 AM	I don't know about strombracer, but nowhere in the description of monkey grip or the powerful built ability does it say you are considered one size category larger for weapon use. This is some readers considerations. I'm not going to requote it since it's been done already, go back and read the abilities. Now if fullblade is a huge weapon design for huge but usable by large with the appropriate exotice weapon feat, you c-a-n-n-o-t use it with poweful built if your size is medium. You can never use a huge weapon with MG if your size is medium, and your not cosidered size large with powerful built for this purpose.
Ace_of_time 11-03-07, 11:47 AM	The first part of PB. Powerful build: The physical Stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. The first part of stongarm bracers. When wearing strongarm bracers, you can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal. (you don't take any penalty when using weapons as normal for your size) No one has post MG yet. You can use melee weapon one size larger than you are with a -2 penalty on attacks, but the ammount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. As you can see MG says that you still have to use the same ammount of hand as you normally would, AKA not considered larger for weapon use. You just get to use larger weapons. STB and PB do almost the same thing. PB as lets you also be consired large for bull rush and the like and swollow like abilities. So they would overlap but not stack, and none of them would stack because they say normal size.
Tordak 11-03-07, 01:23 PM	The first part of PB. Originally Posted by race of stone Powerful build: The physical Stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. As you have correctly put, in many ways as if he were one size category larger. When you read on, ...can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. Not considered large for the use of weapons. However it appears that with the storm bracer you could weild a huge fullblade if your medium size and have the appropriate exotic weapon feat. Still doesn't stack with PB though.
Knightblde 11-03-07, 01:40 PM	As you have correctly put, in many ways as if he were one size category larger. When you read on, Not considered large for the use of weapons. However it appears that with the storm bracer you could weild a huge fullblade if your medium size and have the appropriate exotic weapon feat. Still doesn't stack with PB though. Unless in a FAQ or other offical post, I don't see how either side could prove if PB makes you count as large, or just use large weapons. For me, I say count as large. For someone to say that they don't count as large when it comes to weapons would mean they have to disregard the first part of PB (count as large for many effects) which I can't agree with. The only way I can come up with this ruling is to read each sentence, and ignore the rest of the entry. But you do you. Happy Gaming!
risner 11-03-07, 03:27 PM	Stronarm Bracers, page 139, MIC allows you to use a weapon one size larger than your size. Powerful Build does not consider you Large for weapon use. Monkey Grip does not consider you Large for weapon use. Can anyone quote the rule that disagrees with the above?
Ace_of_time 11-03-07, 03:35 PM	That part is to let you know that the PB override the rules for using one size larger weapon. It also says it under Stongarm entry under the Example of a "human wearing the bracers could wield large or medium without penalty." If it makes every one happy I'll stop saying consider. But I don't see the difference in that and the "as if". They both still mean you wield large weapon as a large creature. Only MG keeps the limits on how many hands it takes to use the weapon. But I'll tell you what you tell me what you get as large creature wielding large weapon that a goliath doesn't get when wielding large weapon and I'll give it to you.:) Or how about this one. If you were right and they are not considered large for weapon use then they wouldn't be able to use two handed weapons at all. But on page 76, ROS, there is a NPC stat block for Akala Fishstringer and under weapons they have him wield a large greataxe. How would that even be possible if he wasn't consider large for weapon use. EDIT:Sorry I meant stone and put dragon.
risner 11-04-07, 07:39 PM	If you were right and they are not considered large for weapon use then they wouldn't be able to use two handed weapons at all. But on page 76, ROD, there is a NPC stat block for Akala Fishstringer and under weapons they have him wield a large greataxe. How would that even be possible if he wasn't consider large for weapon use. You are not considered Large, but you may use Size+1 weapons. So Medium+1 = Large.
Ace_of_time 11-04-07, 08:40 PM	What is the difference?
risner 11-04-07, 11:33 PM	What is the difference? "I am Large" stacks with "use one size larger" but "use one size larger" doesn't stack with "use size one size larger".
Knightblde 11-04-07, 11:39 PM	Yeah, I am kind of lost on your point. Your reading to far into it. I don't think Ace is stating that the abilities stack, but rather that you can use a large weapon in one hand. I do not see a problem with this. Monkey Grip states that the effort to use a weapon does not change. Powerful build does not. I think Ace gets the nod here, as long as he agrees the ability does not stack with like abilities. It is important to note that it DOES stack with enlarge and anything that ACTUALLY changes the players size.
Ace_of_time 11-05-07, 07:06 AM	As pointed out before both feats go on what actual size is not what you are considered to be. The MG feat would to what size you are considered to be in order to stack. They still don't stack. That is why I was confused the first time. You could always come up with a homebrew feat that would stack, but like I said before still seems cheap.
risner 11-05-07, 09:51 AM	Monkey Grip states that the effort to use a weapon does not change. Powerful build does not. I think Ace gets the nod here, as long as he agrees the ability does not stack with like abilities. It is important to note that it DOES stack with enlarge and anything that ACTUALLY changes the players size. That is correct, but you must be careful about saying it counts you as Large, since that is the confusion that started this thread and every other one that appears once every 2 to 3 weeks about stacking Monkey Grip and Powerful Build. Most of that start because someone reads either of the two to "consider you Large" and then believe they can stack.
Rulebook 11-05-07, 03:33 PM	i'd let the guy swing a pair of fullblades if he wants to. with two fullblades out you're not gonna have the feat room to do anything useful with em besides look like you're DIRELY overcompensating for -something- while the guy with the longsword and a thousand feats to improve his abilities (rather than look cool) brings the phat pwnage to him.
Ace_of_time 11-05-07, 09:54 PM	Not going to be able to hit anything ether with that -8 to attack. You could always try to scare them in to running off with a skill check. As to people miss reading feats and ablities. I will not stop say the truth that you are counted as large for weapon use just because someone might read that to mean they stack, which they don't. if you go back and read the OP's first post the OP asked how to wield two full blade for two weapon fighting with out powerfull build. This was the first time it was brought up.also for future refrence, monkey grip and powerful build do not stack and cannot be combined. And I just wanted to know why they didn't stack.
Mirannan 11-06-07, 07:07 AM	A few points here: How the heck are you going to carry around two fullblades ready for use anyway? Weapon sizes changed from 3.0 to 3.5. Weapons used to have their own size; now they have a size class, and a size of character they are designed for. E.G.: a two-handed sword is not a light weapon (which means you can't finesse with it and a couple of other things) but it is a weapon designed for a character size, usually Medium (though a halfling or gnome could presumably use a Small 2H sword). Fullblade is a two-handed weapon so large that it needs an exotic weapon proficiency to use it (not the case for a 2H sword - it only needs martial). This is similar to the case of the bastard sword - in the hands of a Medium character it is two-handed unless you've burned a feat to be able to use it one-handed. A fullblade can't be used by someone without the exotic weapon feat at all, or possibly at minuses - maybe the non-proficient -4. The only exception I'd possibly allow to this if I was DM'ing is a Large creature using a fullblade designed for Medium - which I suppose also applies to Powerful Build - in which case I'd let it go with martial weapon proficiency. As far as I know Monkey Grip does not apply to two-handed weapons in the first place. It might also be noted that 2H weapons are wrongly balanced, and the grips wrongly made, for one-handed use - and thus if you used a 2H sword in one hand, feats and racial characteristics notwithstanding, you'd be using it at penalties. This would also apply to such things as pikes, longspears and assorted polearms and also applies to fullblades. It does not apply to a bastard sword because that weapon is designed for such use. The confusion is because of the different weapon size terminology in the two editions.
Ace_of_time 11-06-07, 08:46 AM	The weapon can be converted over to 3.5 by the DM. You are right that it large twohanded weapon. The entry says that it can be wield by a large creature, in one hand, with a minus on attack. Since they bracers and powerful let you use weapons as if you were large then he could use it in one hand as long as he is willing to take the minuses for doing so. -8, -4 for TWF and -4 for use it in one hand. It wouldn't be a very good build with that kind of minus to attack and you would be better to go with something else. A human monk could take EWP fullblade and TWF and imp NA and gain the same damage at about the same time with only a small minus. level 8 large monk gain 2d8 on damage.
Darth Sephiroth 11-06-07, 12:52 PM	Go with a Half-Minotaur Goliath Barbarian for some massive weapons. You can get some use out of Monkey Grip because you lose Powerful Build while raging in exchange for becoming one size larger (Mountain Rage). Or use the Strongarm Bracers for the same effect. Just grab a Sizing, Balanced Fullblade (Go for a Heavy Fullblade if you don't mind the attack penalties in order for another size boost to damage). That adds another order of damage (Balanced treats the weapon as one size smaller for concerning who can wield it). Snag an item that can increase your size again for even more fun. Get oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and you've become a terrifying enemy with blades bigger than most buildings.
mvincent 11-06-07, 01:19 PM	Related trivia: An enlarged person with monkey-grip can wield a colossal sunblade.
Fend 11-06-07, 01:30 PM	might be offtopic - 1 fullblade is just an enlarged greatsword 2 fullblades is just plain greedy I banned Monkey grip from my game for that reason alone :/
mvincent 11-06-07, 01:38 PM	1 fullblade is just an enlarged greatswordActually, in 3.5 it is effectively treated as an enlarged bastard sword.
Ace_of_time 11-06-07, 01:40 PM	Go with a Half-Minotaur Goliath Barbarian for some massive weapons. You can get some use out of Monkey Grip because you lose Powerful Build while raging in exchange for becoming one size larger (Mountain Rage). Or use the Strongarm Bracers for the same effect. Just grab a Sizing, Balanced Fullblade (Go for a Heavy Fullblade if you don't mind the attack penalties in order for another size boost to damage). That adds another order of damage (Balanced treats the weapon as one size smaller for concerning who can wield it). Snag an item that can increase your size again for even more fun. Get oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and you've become a terrifying enemy with blades bigger than most buildings. OTWF only counts for one handed weapon in off hand and does not work for two handed weapon used in one hand.
Fend 11-06-07, 01:44 PM	Actually, in 3.5 it is effectively treated as an enlarged bastard sword. my bad :) tis 5:13 am over here. hehe sorry for going off topic.
Darth Sephiroth 11-06-07, 03:27 PM	OTWF only counts for one handed weapon in off hand and does not work for two handed weapon used in one hand. Half-Minotaur increases your size to Large (Meaning that you're large with Powerful Build, or Huge when Raging). Large or bigger creatures can wield a Fullblade 1 handed, meaning that it's one size behind the curve for TWF, however, since they're sizing you can swap back and forth as needed.
Ace_of_time 11-06-07, 04:22 PM	I understand what you are saying. But it would still be two handed weapon. It doesn't matter if you wield it in one hand. The weapon it's self has to be a one handed sword. Also power build with your build would not let you use med weapon without penalty.
Darth Sephiroth 11-06-07, 08:56 PM	They just need the EWP (Fullblade) feat to wield it one handed without penalty, Monkey Grip just lets you wield a bigger one with a small penalty. Heavy Weapons increase damage by one size, but add a -4 attack penalty, so a Heavy Fullblade of the right size would have a -6 penalty beyond the TWF penalties.
risner 11-06-07, 11:37 PM	They just need the EWP (Fullblade) feat to wield it one handed without penalty, Monkey Grip just lets you wield a bigger one with a small penalty. Heavy Weapons increase damage by one size, but add a -4 attack penalty, so a Heavy Fullblade of the right size would have a -6 penalty beyond the TWF penalties. Heavy is very very very old 3.0 content when they have specific odd rules on exactly how it changed the damage. Meaning, it will very unlikely translate in any balanced way.
Darth Sephiroth 11-07-07, 01:36 PM	Not always, -4 to attack is a nasty penalty for a damage increase (Damage as 1 size larger). In most cases this makes the cost double the maximum benefit or equal to it in the best cases.
TheKeyofE 11-07-07, 08:08 PM	Why is everyone still arguing about this? I already explained how easy it is on the first page: Wolfshade, here's what you do: forget about the fullblade. Take your character with his powerful build trait, take Oversized Two-Weapon fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Wield two Large size bastard swords, which deal 2d8 each, same as a fullblade. A fullblade is just a large bastard sword. Period.
risner 11-07-07, 08:42 PM	Why is everyone still arguing about this? I already explained how easy it is on the first page: A fullblade is just a large bastard sword. Period. Probably because it isn't true? Fullblade != Large Bastard Sword, at least in 3.5 D&D, since they have not printed it in 3.5 and have not said it is a Bastard Sword. Now that being said, your suggestions does get you close (or at) the same effect most want.
CrazyGuy 11-07-07, 09:25 PM	Actually, it is. Ignore, for the moment, the the first paragraph in the weapon's entry in the A&EG. The second says "A Large creature can use the fullblade in two hands as a martial weapon. A Large creatrue with EWP (Fullblade) can use it in one hand... Hmmm... this sounds suspiciously like a Bastard Sword sized for a Large creature. And the damage is right too! Remember, the Fullblade was 3.0, when weapons had two sizes, which could get confusing. For instance, a Greatsword is a large weapon, unless it is a Large Greatsword, in which case it is a huge weapon. Confused yet? This is why the 3.5 weapon sizing is so much better. As an aside, if you want to wield the biggest weapons possible, and do not want to have to go through questionable 3.0 sources to do it, try this: Half-Giant afflicted Were-anything huge (I suggest Giant Crocodile, myself), then add 7 levels of Psychic Warrior. Go to hybrid, then hit yourself with an augmented Expansion to shoot up to Colossal. Then have fun with what Colossal+ weapons. If you are really keen for the extra damage, swap those Bastard Swords for Warmaces to increase damage from 6d8 to 12d6. If you are lazy, and do not mind waiting another level, a Goliath (or Half-Giant) Wu Jen 17 can cast Giant Size to acheive the same results with a lot less fuss.
Ace_of_time 11-07-07, 11:04 PM	The arguement was about whether Over sized two weapon fighting would work on full blade. And again that feat only works on a one handed weapon not a weapon used in one hand and it only works on the off hand at that. It may have that stats of that weapon but that doesn't make it that weapon When wielding a one handed weapon in your off hand, you take penalties for fighting with two weapons as if you were wielding a light weapon in your off hand
Ace_of_time 11-07-07, 11:27 PM	Actually, it is. Ignore, for the moment, the the first paragraph in the weapon's entry in the A&EG. The second says Hmmm... this sounds suspiciously like a Bastard Sword sized for a Large creature. And the damage is right too! Remember, the Fullblade was 3.0, when weapons had two sizes, which could get confusing. For instance, a Greatsword is a large weapon, unless it is a Large Greatsword, in which case it is a huge weapon. Confused yet? This is why the 3.5 weapon sizing is so much better. As an aside, if you want to wield the biggest weapons possible, and do not want to have to go through questionable 3.0 sources to do it, try this: Half-Giant afflicted Were-anything huge (I suggest Giant Crocodile, myself), then add 7 levels of Psychic Warrior. Go to hybrid, then hit yourself with an augmented Expansion to shoot up to Colossal. Then have fun with what Colossal+ weapons. If you are really keen for the extra damage, swap those Bastard Swords for Warmaces to increase damage from 6d8 to 12d6. If you are lazy, and do not mind waiting another level, a Goliath (or Half-Giant) Wu Jen 17 can cast Giant Size to acheive the same results with a lot less fuss. It realy says that the sword is 18 inches long then a great sword and right before the part you posted it says that a large creature can wield it in one hand with a -4. Having the EWP just take away that minus.
mvincent 11-08-07, 12:26 PM	A fullblade is just a large bastard sword. Period.Well, technically: 1) The "exotic weapon proficiency: bastard sword" feat allows a medium creature to wield a medium bastard sword in one hand (but not a large bastard sword in two-hands). This restriction is often ignored though. 2) The "exotic weapon proficiency: full-blade" feat allows a medium creature to wield a large two-handed weapon (the fullblade) in two-hands.
Ace_of_time 11-08-07, 03:06 PM	I think they are trying to say that a large creature can take the EWP fullblade and wield a med fullblade in one hand with no minus for using it one handed. moving the -8 for TWF to -4.