General Knowledge [Archive] - Wizards Community

General Knowledge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gleicher27
05-14-07, 09:23 AM For many knowledge checks there is a specific category. So for example if the characters see a magical effect they may make a knowlege arcana check. However, there are situations which almost all characters would know something, and perhaps the y may know something specific about that something. An example would be ticket prices on the Lightning Rail in eberron or that the storm callers guild is associated with house Lyrander. What do you do in terms of general knowledge ?

I am thinking for a general skill, maybe knowledge general. This would be something ever character would possess, and they would have the skill level of character level + int bounus. Any thoughts ?

Which also reminds me, since I am posting on the WotC boards and there are many discussions that I cannot hope to keep up, Has this specific topic been discussed before ? and if so, can someone put up a link ? (thks)
Kouk
05-14-07, 10:19 AM Common knowledge is common knowledge. It is handled by a straight Intelligence check of INT bonus + 1d20. This is for "untrained" knowledge checks, it is just an INT check that can't beat a DC of 10. To get over 10, you need at least one rank in a Knowledge skill, which represents more specialized information (with DC 11+).

DC 10 Knowledge Nature: That's a cat. DC 11 Knowledge Nature: Scientific name Felinus Domesticus (or whatever it is).

As for the rail ticket I would think that is more like Knowledge Local if the prices have any variance based on region, or Knowledge Geography if a guy travels a lot. Knowledge Arcana might be able to tell you how the thing functions, but not the current ticket price.

I personally find that Knowledge checks have a tremendous amount of overlap, and often allow 2 or more types of checks about the same thing to determine different information. Like Orcs are humanoids so the book says Knowledge: Local. If you roll well on Knowledge Local, you will find that they have high strength, can see in the dark, most of them are fighters or barbarians etc. A tribe nearby the city has been trouble lately. If you did a Knowledge History you could find when orcs and humans have fought in the past. Knowledge Geography, where orcs tend to live. Knowledge Arcana, orcs don't really contribute anything to the study of magic. Knowledge Nature, orcs often destroy nature by over-hunting and chopping down forests. Knowledge Religion, orcs worship Gruumsh the One-eyed, who has a history with the elves. Knowledge Architecture, orcs don't tend to build much, they live in ruins or tents... etc.

Taken that way there could be any number of ways a character could know of a connection between organizations, especially if they do so publicly or collaborate on multiple fronts.
tarkin
05-14-07, 10:30 AM Actually, what he is describing falls under:

Knowledge (Local)

The examples in the PHB were:

legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids.

For example, people would know the customary prices, but not the ones that the people are actually charging - so if their was a recent price increase they would not automatically know that.

The rest of the things are also Knowledge Local
Kouk
05-14-07, 06:18 PM I don't think customs refers to the customary price. A custom would be like "You don't eat fish on the third Sunday of April".
Kursk
05-14-07, 06:30 PM I don't think customs refers to the customary price. A custom would be like "You don't eat fish on the third Sunday of April".

Then it would fall under laws. As in rules.
Drachasor
05-14-07, 06:57 PM AFAIK, there's nothing like this in the core rules. Also, knowledge skills technically have no overlap, you can even see examples in the books of different knowledge checks on the same thing providing very different information (almost no overlap).

IMHO, that's a bit of madness. Of course, I like how the Star Wars Saga system trims skills down. So I generally think there should be fewer skills.

My idea for a general knowledge skill there is roughly this: A general knowledge skill provides general knowledge about things other knowledge skills don't seem to cover. It can be used in place of a specific knowledge skill, but you suffer a -5 penalty on the check (but are still counted as trained if you are trained in general knowledge).

I am not sure how well this works in a skill point system. It might not work well at all (e.g. be overpowered). Of course, in a skill point system, you can put a few ranks in most of the knowledge skills, and just max the few skills you are interested in (one of which might be a knowledge skill).

-Drachasor
AtmaWeapon
05-14-07, 07:22 PM The best way to represent common knowledge, IMHO, is to allow all PCs to make Knowledge(Subject) checks for any matter where the DC required is 10 or less. A DC of 11 or higher represents knowledge that only a PC with at least introductory training would know.
Kouk
05-15-07, 04:38 AM The best way to represent common knowledge, IMHO, is to allow all PCs to make Knowledge(Subject) checks for any matter where the DC required is 10 or less. A DC of 11 or higher represents knowledge that only a PC with at least introductory training would know.

Right, an untrained knowledge check.
Kouk
05-15-07, 04:39 AM Then it would fall under laws. As in rules.

Ah, but it isn't a law. People would just do it because of tradition, they may not know why.:D If you don't follow it, people look at you funny but they don't arrest you. It is/was "customary" to hold a door for a lady for instance (I don't see that too much anymore). These days, if you do or don't, someone will be angry either way, but there is no legal enforcement.

AFAIK, there's nothing like this in the core rules. Also, knowledge skills technically have no overlap, you can even see examples in the books of different knowledge checks on the same thing providing very different information (almost no overlap).

You're right, it isn't core. It is just something I do to make Knowledge seem more versatile. If you succeed on the indicated check that the Knowledge skills associate with each kind of monster, you get information relevant to fighting them. If you use some other kind of check, you don't get anything pertaining to how they should be fought, just random stuff that you would never think of asking (unless you specifically say why you are making the check).
BW0222
05-15-07, 10:25 AM gleicher27,

For many knowledge checks there is a specific category.

I've yet to find something which doesn't fit under at least one category.

So for example if the characters see a magical effect they may make a knowlege arcana check.

That is clearly spellcraft.

An example would be ticket prices on the Lightning Rail in eberron or that the storm callers guild is associated with house Lyrander.

That would be knowledge (local). Likely with a DC of 5 or for the first and say DC 10 for the later. If your average person might know the answer, then you set the DC at 10 or less and a normal person taking a 10 gets it. The knowledge skill may be used untrained if the DC is 10 or less, so they don't need ranks.

Identifying whether a building is made of bricks or stone -- knowledge engineering DC 5. Knowing that the capital is located along the St. Claire river -- knowledge geography DC 5. Knowing that the Duke's court is in the capital -- knowledge nobility DC 5. Knowing that bears are big furry animals -- knowledge nature DC 5. Identifying the holy symbol of a common god -- knowledge religion DC 5. etc., etc.

I am thinking for a general skill, maybe knowledge general. This would be something ever character would possess, and they would have the skill level of character level + int bounus. Any thoughts ?

No need. Again, if the DC is low enough, then anyone can attempt it untrained. If the DC is greater than 10, then it isn't general knowledge and folks would need some ranks in to some skill. For example, what times does the train leave would likey be a DC 15 check and obviously not something anyone could try knowing.

You also have the option of lowering or raising the DC based on any factor you wish. For example, if the person worked at the train station... you can lower the DC of knowing when the train levels to say 10 or even 5.
tarkin
05-15-07, 10:52 AM I see no reason not to allow Knowledge (Local) to tell you any of those things.

It basically tells you the things that people of that locale know.
Carwyn_Nhung
05-17-07, 11:46 PM Yeah, it seems like you can justify almost anything with knowledge (local), providing it could not be considered a secret. And even then, I'd just put a stupid high DC on it. I think a superhuman use of knowledge local should be knowing the daily habbits of every person who goes outdoors in your specific area, down to their toothpaste. But then that would only work for a certain area, and might be a DC of about 70. I also use profession checks as a form of knowledge check, but I don't think that's really supported by the rules!
Fireclave
05-18-07, 01:50 PM There's really no need for a Knowledge (General) skill. If something is common knowledge, according to the knowledge skill, it is a DC 10 check. Knowledge checks of DC 10 or can be made untrained, and anyone with average intellgence can make a DC 10 check by taking 10, no problem. Therefore, anyone and everyone (of average intelligence) knows ALL the common knowledge of any subject that is covered by the knowledge skills. Even for those of less than average intellgence, they are still pretty likely to know such information (an 8 int half-orc need only roll 11 or higher).

So if something is common knowledge, just assume the the characters know it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gleicher27 05-14-07, 09:23 AM	For many knowledge checks there is a specific category. So for example if the characters see a magical effect they may make a knowlege arcana check. However, there are situations which almost all characters would know something, and perhaps the y may know something specific about that something. An example would be ticket prices on the Lightning Rail in eberron or that the storm callers guild is associated with house Lyrander. What do you do in terms of general knowledge ? I am thinking for a general skill, maybe knowledge general. This would be something ever character would possess, and they would have the skill level of character level + int bounus. Any thoughts ? Which also reminds me, since I am posting on the WotC boards and there are many discussions that I cannot hope to keep up, Has this specific topic been discussed before ? and if so, can someone put up a link ? (thks)
Kouk 05-14-07, 10:19 AM	Common knowledge is common knowledge. It is handled by a straight Intelligence check of INT bonus + 1d20. This is for "untrained" knowledge checks, it is just an INT check that can't beat a DC of 10. To get over 10, you need at least one rank in a Knowledge skill, which represents more specialized information (with DC 11+). DC 10 Knowledge Nature: That's a cat. DC 11 Knowledge Nature: Scientific name Felinus Domesticus (or whatever it is). As for the rail ticket I would think that is more like Knowledge Local if the prices have any variance based on region, or Knowledge Geography if a guy travels a lot. Knowledge Arcana might be able to tell you how the thing functions, but not the current ticket price. I personally find that Knowledge checks have a tremendous amount of overlap, and often allow 2 or more types of checks about the same thing to determine different information. Like Orcs are humanoids so the book says Knowledge: Local. If you roll well on Knowledge Local, you will find that they have high strength, can see in the dark, most of them are fighters or barbarians etc. A tribe nearby the city has been trouble lately. If you did a Knowledge History you could find when orcs and humans have fought in the past. Knowledge Geography, where orcs tend to live. Knowledge Arcana, orcs don't really contribute anything to the study of magic. Knowledge Nature, orcs often destroy nature by over-hunting and chopping down forests. Knowledge Religion, orcs worship Gruumsh the One-eyed, who has a history with the elves. Knowledge Architecture, orcs don't tend to build much, they live in ruins or tents... etc. Taken that way there could be any number of ways a character could know of a connection between organizations, especially if they do so publicly or collaborate on multiple fronts.
tarkin 05-14-07, 10:30 AM	Actually, what he is describing falls under: Knowledge (Local) The examples in the PHB were: legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids. For example, people would know the customary prices, but not the ones that the people are actually charging - so if their was a recent price increase they would not automatically know that. The rest of the things are also Knowledge Local
Kouk 05-14-07, 06:18 PM	I don't think customs refers to the customary price. A custom would be like "You don't eat fish on the third Sunday of April".
Kursk 05-14-07, 06:30 PM	I don't think customs refers to the customary price. A custom would be like "You don't eat fish on the third Sunday of April". Then it would fall under laws. As in rules.
Drachasor 05-14-07, 06:57 PM	AFAIK, there's nothing like this in the core rules. Also, knowledge skills technically have no overlap, you can even see examples in the books of different knowledge checks on the same thing providing very different information (almost no overlap). IMHO, that's a bit of madness. Of course, I like how the Star Wars Saga system trims skills down. So I generally think there should be fewer skills. My idea for a general knowledge skill there is roughly this: A general knowledge skill provides general knowledge about things other knowledge skills don't seem to cover. It can be used in place of a specific knowledge skill, but you suffer a -5 penalty on the check (but are still counted as trained if you are trained in general knowledge). I am not sure how well this works in a skill point system. It might not work well at all (e.g. be overpowered). Of course, in a skill point system, you can put a few ranks in most of the knowledge skills, and just max the few skills you are interested in (one of which might be a knowledge skill). -Drachasor
AtmaWeapon 05-14-07, 07:22 PM	The best way to represent common knowledge, IMHO, is to allow all PCs to make Knowledge(Subject) checks for any matter where the DC required is 10 or less. A DC of 11 or higher represents knowledge that only a PC with at least introductory training would know.
Kouk 05-15-07, 04:38 AM	The best way to represent common knowledge, IMHO, is to allow all PCs to make Knowledge(Subject) checks for any matter where the DC required is 10 or less. A DC of 11 or higher represents knowledge that only a PC with at least introductory training would know. Right, an untrained knowledge check.
Kouk 05-15-07, 04:39 AM	Then it would fall under laws. As in rules. Ah, but it isn't a law. People would just do it because of tradition, they may not know why.:D If you don't follow it, people look at you funny but they don't arrest you. It is/was "customary" to hold a door for a lady for instance (I don't see that too much anymore). These days, if you do or don't, someone will be angry either way, but there is no legal enforcement. AFAIK, there's nothing like this in the core rules. Also, knowledge skills technically have no overlap, you can even see examples in the books of different knowledge checks on the same thing providing very different information (almost no overlap). You're right, it isn't core. It is just something I do to make Knowledge seem more versatile. If you succeed on the indicated check that the Knowledge skills associate with each kind of monster, you get information relevant to fighting them. If you use some other kind of check, you don't get anything pertaining to how they should be fought, just random stuff that you would never think of asking (unless you specifically say why you are making the check).
BW0222 05-15-07, 10:25 AM	gleicher27, For many knowledge checks there is a specific category. I've yet to find something which doesn't fit under at least one category. So for example if the characters see a magical effect they may make a knowlege arcana check. That is clearly spellcraft. An example would be ticket prices on the Lightning Rail in eberron or that the storm callers guild is associated with house Lyrander. That would be knowledge (local). Likely with a DC of 5 or for the first and say DC 10 for the later. If your average person might know the answer, then you set the DC at 10 or less and a normal person taking a 10 gets it. The knowledge skill may be used untrained if the DC is 10 or less, so they don't need ranks. Identifying whether a building is made of bricks or stone -- knowledge engineering DC 5. Knowing that the capital is located along the St. Claire river -- knowledge geography DC 5. Knowing that the Duke's court is in the capital -- knowledge nobility DC 5. Knowing that bears are big furry animals -- knowledge nature DC 5. Identifying the holy symbol of a common god -- knowledge religion DC 5. etc., etc. I am thinking for a general skill, maybe knowledge general. This would be something ever character would possess, and they would have the skill level of character level + int bounus. Any thoughts ? No need. Again, if the DC is low enough, then anyone can attempt it untrained. If the DC is greater than 10, then it isn't general knowledge and folks would need some ranks in to some skill. For example, what times does the train leave would likey be a DC 15 check and obviously not something anyone could try knowing. You also have the option of lowering or raising the DC based on any factor you wish. For example, if the person worked at the train station... you can lower the DC of knowing when the train levels to say 10 or even 5.
tarkin 05-15-07, 10:52 AM	I see no reason not to allow Knowledge (Local) to tell you any of those things. It basically tells you the things that people of that locale know.
Carwyn_Nhung 05-17-07, 11:46 PM	Yeah, it seems like you can justify almost anything with knowledge (local), providing it could not be considered a secret. And even then, I'd just put a stupid high DC on it. I think a superhuman use of knowledge local should be knowing the daily habbits of every person who goes outdoors in your specific area, down to their toothpaste. But then that would only work for a certain area, and might be a DC of about 70. I also use profession checks as a form of knowledge check, but I don't think that's really supported by the rules!
Fireclave 05-18-07, 01:50 PM	There's really no need for a Knowledge (General) skill. If something is common knowledge, according to the knowledge skill, it is a DC 10 check. Knowledge checks of DC 10 or can be made untrained, and anyone with average intellgence can make a DC 10 check by taking 10, no problem. Therefore, anyone and everyone (of average intelligence) knows ALL the common knowledge of any subject that is covered by the knowledge skills. Even for those of less than average intellgence, they are still pretty likely to know such information (an 8 int half-orc need only roll 11 or higher). So if something is common knowledge, just assume the the characters know it.