General Physical Feats applied to Specific Magic Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

General Physical Feats applied to Specific Magic Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kevashi
08-28-07, 03:20 PM So, being the Noob I am and my constant arguing with the DM on rules, I thought I would take it to the rule masters themselves for their input on the way these list feats and abilities would effect (or not effect) magic missile.
For determining damage for each of these feats, assume the character is a 3rd Level Human Sorcerer
With the following Attribute scores: Str: 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 18

Feat Questions:
Point Blank Shot - Does it add a +1 to the damage of each magic missile?
Possible Scenarios:
Character would cast magic missile with in 30 feet of the target and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+2 damage each.
Character would cast magic missile with in 30 feet of the target and receive 2 missiles, 1 missile dealing 1D4+2 damage and 1 missile dealing 1D4+1dmg.
Character would cast magic missile with in 30 feet of the target and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage, with no benefit from the Point Blank Shot Feat.

Wpn Focus - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile? and if so, what spell class would you have to take wpn focus? Would there be a possibility of taking Exotic wpn Prof magic missile to make it possible to take wpn focus in magic missile? I understand that WPN Focus would do nothing for the spell magic missile as far as damage and attack bonus are concerned, but I do know that it can be applied to range touch or melee touch attacks.
Possible Scenarios:
Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage each, with no benefit from the Wpn Focus Feat.

Wpn Focus and Wpn Spec - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile? I understand a Fighter can take wpn Spec, but could the feat still be applied to magic missile, and if so, what spell class would you have to take wpn focus and wpn spec in? Would there be a possibility of taking Exotic wpn Prof magic missile to make it possible to take wpn spec in magic missile? The previous question builds on to this question, as you can not take Wpn Spec with out Wpn Focus.
Possible Scenarios:
Character would cast magic missile receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+3 damage each.
Character would cast magic missile receive 2 missiles, 1 missile dealing 1D4+3 damage and 1 missile dealing 1D4+1dmg.
Character would cast magic missile receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage, with no benefit from the Wpn Spec Feat.

Class ability questions:
For determining damage for each of these feats, assume the character is a 3rd Level Human Warmage
With the following Attribute scores: Str: 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 18
The following Class abilities:
Armored Mage(light) : can cast Warmage spells in light armor and shield with 0% Arcane failure
Warmage edge: Add Int modifier to all spells that deal HP
Advanced Learning: add one wizard evocation spell to your spell list, can be no higher then the highest level spell you can cast.

How would Warmage Edge effect magic missile cast by the above character.
Possible Scenarios:
Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+5 damage each.
Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles, 1 missile dealing 1D4+5 damage and 1 missile dealing 1D4+1dmg.
Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage, with no benefit from the Warmage Edge Ability.

Yes, these questions may be a lil off the wall, but ive never been a big fan of normal "run of the mill" characters. All of these questions have raised from reading the Complete Arcane and Complete Mage Supplemental Books.

Thank your for your time and input,
tarkin
08-28-07, 03:35 PM Point Blank Shot - Does it add a +1 to the damage of each magic missile?

No. Magic Missile is not aimed. It is not a weapon and can not benefit from any thing designed to affect weapons. Similarly, such feats do not increase the damage done by a fireball spell.

Wpn Focus - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile?

No Magic missile is not a weapon. But you can apply it to things like Chill Touch, Acid Arrow, or Shocking Grasp

You could however make some other kind of feat such as Force Focus, that grants +1 to any force based spell that does damage. That feat would have to specify how much damage is done and whether it is per spell casting or something else.

Wpn Focus and Wpn Spec - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile?

As stated earlier, Magic Missile is in NO WAY a weapon. Ignore the name, look at what it does. It can't miss, it is not a weapon.

How would Warmage Edge effect magic missile cast by the above character.

It adds to the TOTAL damage done by the spell. You get to choose which missile does the extra damage. You can make it the first one, or you could make it the last one, or any of the others.

P.S. In Complete Arcane, on page 13 they describe the ability Warmage's Edge. It gives an example with a spell. The spell happens to be Magic Missile.

The book specificially answers your question, including a description of how only one (your choice) of the missiles gets the extra damage.
Mr_Teapot
08-28-07, 04:23 PM Complete Arcane explains which weapon feats apply and to what spells. Because Magic Missile doesn't require an attack roll, it's not considered a "weaponlike" spell, so I don't think any of those feats apply. Spells requiring an attack roll (e.g., most rays) would get them to apply, though.
StruckingFuggle
08-28-07, 05:15 PM Point Blank Shot - Does it add a +1 to the damage of each magic missile?

No. Magic Missile is not aimed. It is not a weapon and can not benefit from any thing designed to affect weapons. Similarly, such feats do not increase the damage done by a fireball spell.

However, as Tarkin does not point out, PBS should apply to a weapon-like spell (one involving an attack role), such as Scorching Ray.

I believe that Weapon Focus applies to certain sorts of spell types, such as Rays or Ranged Touch Attacks or Touch Attacks (but I've never gotten a clear, well-supported clarification of what the various options specifically are for weaponlike spells and weapon focus) ... but I could be wrong, and I've never really seen Weapon Specialization brought into the discussion (though, logically, if you can take Weapon Focus with it...); but really, Weapon Specialization in a spell? Man, there's better things you can spend feats on. o.o
TwistedFate
08-28-07, 05:52 PM You are correct, Weapon Focus can affect weapon-like spells, but there are better feats for you to take. My char has Weapon Focus(Rays) but it's wasted as I never use it. Thank goodness my DM allows feat reassignment as put forth in PHB2, I'll be ditching it next level.

PBS affects weapon like spells as well, but again it's not the best use of feat unless you also do a lot of fighting with a bow. There are better feats for casters, +1 damage just isn't worth it if I have to get within 30ft of an enemy. I like to cast from as far away with as many meat-shields between me and the target as I can arrange. There is nothing like a well placed maximized fireball to paint a big old target on your back.
bkdubs123
08-28-07, 05:54 PM Right, just as everyone above has said, "No, Magic Missile is not a weapon. Read up in Complete Arcane about what is and is not considered a weapon."

However, I had, at one time, a Duelspell class in the works. I think it had medium BAB and lots of rays and touch spells. It would have been able to grab weapon focus and specialization but only for weapon-like spells, and it would have been great at counterspelling. I may work on the class again someday soon.
kevashi
08-28-07, 06:37 PM Man..you guys know how to crush a mans dream..LOL
However, your answers are what I was expecting as well, even if i wished for the better.
Thanks for the validation.
TwistedFate
08-28-07, 06:42 PM Sorry mate. When you get the Sorceror up into the double digit levels you'll be wondering why you were ever worried about +1 damage in the first place.
kevashi
08-28-07, 08:50 PM So, as a continuation of the first post.
What feats/abilities could be taken to improve dmg for all magic missles cast by a character?? Or is there none?
the reason i am focusing on magic missle is becasue of its ability to just hit a target (not worrying about special cases: SR, DR, Cover, ETC).
Yes, there are a ton of ways to get around/negate the spell, but that is not my current concern.
Nom
08-28-07, 08:57 PM As far as scorching ray is concerned, Point Blank Shot does have its uses. While the +1 to-hit is handy, more importantly it is a pre-req to Precise Shot, which is a major benefit if you plan to be shooting rays into a melee.
Mr_Teapot
08-29-07, 10:29 AM So, as a continuation of the first post.
What feats/abilities could be taken to improve dmg for all magic missles cast by a character?? Or is there none?

Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, etc. all boost your Magic Missile's damage. And feats like Chain Spell, Repeat Spell and Twin Spell increase your total damage by making more Magic Missiles.

The Sudden metamagics are nice to apply to your higher level spells, since they don't increase the spell's level. So you can Maximize spells you normally couldn't (like at first level with Magic Missile). The disadvantage is the small number of times per day you can do that.
TwistedFate
08-29-07, 10:54 AM kevashi, If you are looking for guaranteed damage spells pick up the Spell Compendium (they are probably in other resources too) and check Orb of Acid/Cold/Fire/etc... Auto hit, no saves for damage reduction, no SR, with more damage dealt than MM + bonuses if the target fails a Fort save (sickens, blind, etc...) . Comes in a couple different sizes like Lesser for lower level spell slots. It's a single orb so you can't target multiple creatures like MM, but for a single target I like them better than MM. I always keep a couple memmed or on scrolls in case my DM gets tired of my wizardly hi-jinx and sends out the high SR beasties to slow me down.

There is also Chain Missle (in Spell Compendium, also in some issue of Dragon I have) functions similar to MM but all missles strike the first target for full damage then each missle reflects off to strike other targets of your choosing within 30 feet.

Spell Compendium is a little pricey, but if your DM allows it then no caster should be without it, IMHO.
Puca
08-29-07, 12:21 PM Orbs are not "auto hit." They require a ranged-touch attack. Granted, they hit a lot, but it isnt automatic. (The orb spells are also in Complete Arcane, which is a good resource for casters too. Though Spell Compendium is probably better.)

Magic Missile is pretty low damage. At level 9, you can Empower it for an average of 26.25 points of damage per casting. (The average for Empowered MM is better than the Maximized MM, and at a better cost [3rd-level slot as opposed to a 4th.])

At that same level, you could average 31.5 damage using a fireball in the same slot.

But, Magic Missile almost never misses. (Only with a Shield or similar spell or a Broach of Shielding.) It cant be resisted or reduced to useless by immunity like your energy-damage spells. It also can effect incorporeal creatures and they can effect creatures on the ethereal plane. Its a good spell to have ready.
TwistedFate
08-29-07, 03:45 PM Orbs are not "auto hit." They require a ranged-touch attack. Granted, they hit a lot, but it isnt automatic.

Really? Gonna have to pull out the compendium next time we play and re-read those. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that is something I shouldn't have wrong since I cast one of those just about every 1-2 sessions, and I usually have my frequently used spells down to a science.

At that same level, you could average 31.5 damage using a fireball in the same slot.

Ah, my old friend Fireball. When you absolutely, positively have to kill it in the first round. Another bonus is it deals damage to all critters in an area. Try dropping 7 Drow in one round with a MM.
Nom
08-29-07, 04:52 PM Ah, my old friend Fireball. When you absolutely, positively have to kill it in the first round.In which case, fireball is a pretty poor choice. Though probably better than message.
Another bonus is it deals damage to all critters in an area. Try dropping 7 Drow in one round with a MM.This is what fireball is for. It can easily take 3-4 rounds to deal enough damage to defeat a CR appropriate opponent, but you can deal that damage to several opponents at once.
Puca
08-29-07, 05:10 PM Really? Gonna have to pull out the compendium next time we play and re-read those. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that is something I shouldn't have wrong since I cast one of those just about every 1-2 sessions, and I usually have my frequently used spells down to a science.I am positive that the Complete Arcane version required a ranged touch. The SC version might have changed it. But, considering they are no-save, no-SR, I dont think so.

You use Fireball and MM in totally different situations though, I just meant to show the difference in damage, and that was a little misleading. When youre facing a single opponent locked in melee two allies, Fireball isnt nearly as good a spell as Magic Missile would be.
TwistedFate
08-29-07, 08:30 PM In which case, fireball is a pretty poor choice. Though probably better than message.

That was said a little bit tongue in cheek, not meant for literal acceptance.

I am positive that the Complete Arcane version required a ranged touch. The SC version might have changed it. But, considering they are no-save, no-SR, I dont think so.

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing. It's entirely possible I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time. I may have seen what I wanted to see when I was looking it up.
Puca
08-30-07, 12:40 PM I checked my SC and confirmed that about the Orbs last night: they require the ranged-touch. Sorry :(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kevashi 08-28-07, 03:20 PM	So, being the Noob I am and my constant arguing with the DM on rules, I thought I would take it to the rule masters themselves for their input on the way these list feats and abilities would effect (or not effect) magic missile. For determining damage for each of these feats, assume the character is a 3rd Level Human Sorcerer With the following Attribute scores: Str: 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 18 Feat Questions: Point Blank Shot - Does it add a +1 to the damage of each magic missile? Possible Scenarios: Character would cast magic missile with in 30 feet of the target and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+2 damage each. Character would cast magic missile with in 30 feet of the target and receive 2 missiles, 1 missile dealing 1D4+2 damage and 1 missile dealing 1D4+1dmg. Character would cast magic missile with in 30 feet of the target and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage, with no benefit from the Point Blank Shot Feat. Wpn Focus - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile? and if so, what spell class would you have to take wpn focus? Would there be a possibility of taking Exotic wpn Prof magic missile to make it possible to take wpn focus in magic missile? I understand that WPN Focus would do nothing for the spell magic missile as far as damage and attack bonus are concerned, but I do know that it can be applied to range touch or melee touch attacks. Possible Scenarios: Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage each, with no benefit from the Wpn Focus Feat. Wpn Focus and Wpn Spec - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile? I understand a Fighter can take wpn Spec, but could the feat still be applied to magic missile, and if so, what spell class would you have to take wpn focus and wpn spec in? Would there be a possibility of taking Exotic wpn Prof magic missile to make it possible to take wpn spec in magic missile? The previous question builds on to this question, as you can not take Wpn Spec with out Wpn Focus. Possible Scenarios: Character would cast magic missile receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+3 damage each. Character would cast magic missile receive 2 missiles, 1 missile dealing 1D4+3 damage and 1 missile dealing 1D4+1dmg. Character would cast magic missile receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage, with no benefit from the Wpn Spec Feat. Class ability questions: For determining damage for each of these feats, assume the character is a 3rd Level Human Warmage With the following Attribute scores: Str: 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 18 The following Class abilities: Armored Mage(light) : can cast Warmage spells in light armor and shield with 0% Arcane failure Warmage edge: Add Int modifier to all spells that deal HP Advanced Learning: add one wizard evocation spell to your spell list, can be no higher then the highest level spell you can cast. How would Warmage Edge effect magic missile cast by the above character. Possible Scenarios: Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+5 damage each. Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles, 1 missile dealing 1D4+5 damage and 1 missile dealing 1D4+1dmg. Character would cast magic missile and receive 2 missiles dealing 1D4+1 damage, with no benefit from the Warmage Edge Ability. Yes, these questions may be a lil off the wall, but ive never been a big fan of normal "run of the mill" characters. All of these questions have raised from reading the Complete Arcane and Complete Mage Supplemental Books. Thank your for your time and input,
tarkin 08-28-07, 03:35 PM	Point Blank Shot - Does it add a +1 to the damage of each magic missile? No. Magic Missile is not aimed. It is not a weapon and can not benefit from any thing designed to affect weapons. Similarly, such feats do not increase the damage done by a fireball spell. Wpn Focus - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile? No Magic missile is not a weapon. But you can apply it to things like Chill Touch, Acid Arrow, or Shocking Grasp You could however make some other kind of feat such as Force Focus, that grants +1 to any force based spell that does damage. That feat would have to specify how much damage is done and whether it is per spell casting or something else. Wpn Focus and Wpn Spec - is there anyway to apply this to magic missile? As stated earlier, Magic Missile is in NO WAY a weapon. Ignore the name, look at what it does. It can't miss, it is not a weapon. How would Warmage Edge effect magic missile cast by the above character. It adds to the TOTAL damage done by the spell. You get to choose which missile does the extra damage. You can make it the first one, or you could make it the last one, or any of the others. P.S. In Complete Arcane, on page 13 they describe the ability Warmage's Edge. It gives an example with a spell. The spell happens to be Magic Missile. The book specificially answers your question, including a description of how only one (your choice) of the missiles gets the extra damage.
Mr_Teapot 08-28-07, 04:23 PM	Complete Arcane explains which weapon feats apply and to what spells. Because Magic Missile doesn't require an attack roll, it's not considered a "weaponlike" spell, so I don't think any of those feats apply. Spells requiring an attack roll (e.g., most rays) would get them to apply, though.
StruckingFuggle 08-28-07, 05:15 PM	Point Blank Shot - Does it add a +1 to the damage of each magic missile? No. Magic Missile is not aimed. It is not a weapon and can not benefit from any thing designed to affect weapons. Similarly, such feats do not increase the damage done by a fireball spell. However, as Tarkin does not point out, PBS should apply to a weapon-like spell (one involving an attack role), such as Scorching Ray. I believe that Weapon Focus applies to certain sorts of spell types, such as Rays or Ranged Touch Attacks or Touch Attacks (but I've never gotten a clear, well-supported clarification of what the various options specifically are for weaponlike spells and weapon focus) ... but I could be wrong, and I've never really seen Weapon Specialization brought into the discussion (though, logically, if you can take Weapon Focus with it...); but really, Weapon Specialization in a spell? Man, there's better things you can spend feats on. o.o
TwistedFate 08-28-07, 05:52 PM	You are correct, Weapon Focus can affect weapon-like spells, but there are better feats for you to take. My char has Weapon Focus(Rays) but it's wasted as I never use it. Thank goodness my DM allows feat reassignment as put forth in PHB2, I'll be ditching it next level. PBS affects weapon like spells as well, but again it's not the best use of feat unless you also do a lot of fighting with a bow. There are better feats for casters, +1 damage just isn't worth it if I have to get within 30ft of an enemy. I like to cast from as far away with as many meat-shields between me and the target as I can arrange. There is nothing like a well placed maximized fireball to paint a big old target on your back.
bkdubs123 08-28-07, 05:54 PM	Right, just as everyone above has said, "No, Magic Missile is not a weapon. Read up in Complete Arcane about what is and is not considered a weapon." However, I had, at one time, a Duelspell class in the works. I think it had medium BAB and lots of rays and touch spells. It would have been able to grab weapon focus and specialization but only for weapon-like spells, and it would have been great at counterspelling. I may work on the class again someday soon.
kevashi 08-28-07, 06:37 PM	Man..you guys know how to crush a mans dream..LOL However, your answers are what I was expecting as well, even if i wished for the better. Thanks for the validation.
TwistedFate 08-28-07, 06:42 PM	Sorry mate. When you get the Sorceror up into the double digit levels you'll be wondering why you were ever worried about +1 damage in the first place.
kevashi 08-28-07, 08:50 PM	So, as a continuation of the first post. What feats/abilities could be taken to improve dmg for all magic missles cast by a character?? Or is there none? the reason i am focusing on magic missle is becasue of its ability to just hit a target (not worrying about special cases: SR, DR, Cover, ETC). Yes, there are a ton of ways to get around/negate the spell, but that is not my current concern.
Nom 08-28-07, 08:57 PM	As far as scorching ray is concerned, Point Blank Shot does have its uses. While the +1 to-hit is handy, more importantly it is a pre-req to Precise Shot, which is a major benefit if you plan to be shooting rays into a melee.
Mr_Teapot 08-29-07, 10:29 AM	So, as a continuation of the first post. What feats/abilities could be taken to improve dmg for all magic missles cast by a character?? Or is there none? Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, etc. all boost your Magic Missile's damage. And feats like Chain Spell, Repeat Spell and Twin Spell increase your total damage by making more Magic Missiles. The Sudden metamagics are nice to apply to your higher level spells, since they don't increase the spell's level. So you can Maximize spells you normally couldn't (like at first level with Magic Missile). The disadvantage is the small number of times per day you can do that.
TwistedFate 08-29-07, 10:54 AM	kevashi, If you are looking for guaranteed damage spells pick up the Spell Compendium (they are probably in other resources too) and check Orb of Acid/Cold/Fire/etc... Auto hit, no saves for damage reduction, no SR, with more damage dealt than MM + bonuses if the target fails a Fort save (sickens, blind, etc...) . Comes in a couple different sizes like Lesser for lower level spell slots. It's a single orb so you can't target multiple creatures like MM, but for a single target I like them better than MM. I always keep a couple memmed or on scrolls in case my DM gets tired of my wizardly hi-jinx and sends out the high SR beasties to slow me down. There is also Chain Missle (in Spell Compendium, also in some issue of Dragon I have) functions similar to MM but all missles strike the first target for full damage then each missle reflects off to strike other targets of your choosing within 30 feet. Spell Compendium is a little pricey, but if your DM allows it then no caster should be without it, IMHO.
Puca 08-29-07, 12:21 PM	Orbs are not "auto hit." They require a ranged-touch attack. Granted, they hit a lot, but it isnt automatic. (The orb spells are also in Complete Arcane, which is a good resource for casters too. Though Spell Compendium is probably better.) Magic Missile is pretty low damage. At level 9, you can Empower it for an average of 26.25 points of damage per casting. (The average for Empowered MM is better than the Maximized MM, and at a better cost [3rd-level slot as opposed to a 4th.]) At that same level, you could average 31.5 damage using a fireball in the same slot. But, Magic Missile almost never misses. (Only with a Shield or similar spell or a Broach of Shielding.) It cant be resisted or reduced to useless by immunity like your energy-damage spells. It also can effect incorporeal creatures and they can effect creatures on the ethereal plane. Its a good spell to have ready.
TwistedFate 08-29-07, 03:45 PM	Orbs are not "auto hit." They require a ranged-touch attack. Granted, they hit a lot, but it isnt automatic. Really? Gonna have to pull out the compendium next time we play and re-read those. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that is something I shouldn't have wrong since I cast one of those just about every 1-2 sessions, and I usually have my frequently used spells down to a science. At that same level, you could average 31.5 damage using a fireball in the same slot. Ah, my old friend Fireball. When you absolutely, positively have to kill it in the first round. Another bonus is it deals damage to all critters in an area. Try dropping 7 Drow in one round with a MM.
Nom 08-29-07, 04:52 PM	Ah, my old friend Fireball. When you absolutely, positively have to kill it in the first round.In which case, fireball is a pretty poor choice. Though probably better than message. Another bonus is it deals damage to all critters in an area. Try dropping 7 Drow in one round with a MM.This is what fireball is for. It can easily take 3-4 rounds to deal enough damage to defeat a CR appropriate opponent, but you can deal that damage to several opponents at once.
Puca 08-29-07, 05:10 PM	Really? Gonna have to pull out the compendium next time we play and re-read those. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that is something I shouldn't have wrong since I cast one of those just about every 1-2 sessions, and I usually have my frequently used spells down to a science.I am positive that the Complete Arcane version required a ranged touch. The SC version might have changed it. But, considering they are no-save, no-SR, I dont think so. You use Fireball and MM in totally different situations though, I just meant to show the difference in damage, and that was a little misleading. When youre facing a single opponent locked in melee two allies, Fireball isnt nearly as good a spell as Magic Missile would be.
TwistedFate 08-29-07, 08:30 PM	In which case, fireball is a pretty poor choice. Though probably better than message. That was said a little bit tongue in cheek, not meant for literal acceptance. I am positive that the Complete Arcane version required a ranged touch. The SC version might have changed it. But, considering they are no-save, no-SR, I dont think so. Like I said, I'm not disagreeing. It's entirely possible I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time. I may have seen what I wanted to see when I was looking it up.
Puca 08-30-07, 12:40 PM	I checked my SC and confirmed that about the Orbs last night: they require the ranged-touch. Sorry :(