Getting Rid of Ranged AoO's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Getting Rid of Ranged AoO's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DragonGhoula
08-13-07, 08:21 PM Hi guys. As the title says, is there a feat that lets you avoid AoOs when shooting a ranged weapon in threatened squares, and also, is there a feat that lets you make ranged AoOs (as in let you threaten more squares if wielding ranged)? Thanks for the help :D
Tempest Stormwind
08-13-07, 08:25 PM You threaten NO squares with a ranged weapon for obvious reasons; the mere 10' reach of polearms is already highly sought after.

There are ways of avoiding AoOs for shooting in threatened squares (none are feats; Order of the Bow Initiate is one example), but why are you that close to begin with?
Dheran
08-13-07, 09:02 PM Here's a simple, but controversial, approach: just make a full attack. This follows the letter, but almost certainly not the spirit, of the rules. The AoO for making a ranged attack is only listed under standard actions. The table for full-round actions says that full attacks never provoke AoOs, and the text doesn't contradict this.

Time to get in touch with your inner rules lawyer.
NyMpHoMaNiAc_FaNtAsIA
08-14-07, 12:20 AM You can accomplish both things temporarily with the spell Arrow Mind.

The feat Defensive Archery may help you avoid being hit by AoO caused by ranged attacks.
dndlocke
08-14-07, 11:20 AM For the threatening, i could say quintessential fighter, master bowman. his 2nd level ability allows you to threaten 20' when armed with a bow of any type.

but... his prereqs are pretty hard to get
BaB +12 or higher, Far shot, point blank shot, precise shot, quick shot, shot on the run, weapon focus, and weapon spec.

So its a bow focused fighter of 12th lv or higher can take this class. I mean it just hurts more this way, on top of it his 5th lv ability is basically imp precise shot. cant benefit from more than 1/4 cover if they have total they are immune. But if you take the fighting style blackfeather along with this class you can make touch attacks with your bow, making it deadly. But the class i don't believe is broken really, since you'd have to be lv 14 to use it.
Frugal
08-14-07, 11:27 AM Here's a simple, but controversial, approach: just make a full attack. This follows the letter, but almost certainly not the spirit, of the rules. The AoO for making a ranged attack is only listed under standard actions. The table for full-round actions says that full attacks never provoke AoOs, and the text doesn't contradict this.

Time to get in touch with your inner rules lawyer.

Well actually, full attack says that you get to make more than 1 attack (if you are using TWF or have a high enough BAB), so you could interpret that to mean that it allows you to make multiple attack actions, which are then determined if they provoke accordingly.
Dheran
08-14-07, 04:07 PM Well actually, full attack says that you get to make more than 1 attack (if you are using TWF or have a high enough BAB), so you could interpret that to mean that it allows you to make multiple attack actions, which are then determined if they provoke accordingly. That's fine, but to determine if they provoke you can't use the standard action table, because you're not allowed to make a standard action attack in the same round as a full attack. It's only under standard actions that they list a ranged attack as provoking AoOs.
Frugal
08-14-07, 07:05 PM That's fine, but to determine if they provoke you can't use the standard action table, because you're not allowed to make a standard action attack in the same round as a full attack. It's only under standard actions that they list a ranged attack as provoking AoOs.

No, I'm interpreting that the full attack action allows you to make multiple attack actions. You then lookup the attack action in question and see if it provokes. By your reasoning you also can't make unarmed attacks as part of a full attack action because it's only listed as a standard action as well.
Dheran
08-15-07, 07:35 AM No, I'm interpreting that the full attack action allows you to make multiple attack actions. Well, don't do that! It's against the rules. A full attack action is made up of multiple attacks, but not multiple standard action attacks. The two types of actions aren't compatible.By your reasoning you also can't make unarmed attacks as part of a full attack action because it's only listed as a standard action as well. You're jumping off a cliff to a conclusion there, Frugal. My reasoning says that you use the full-round action table to determine whether full attacks provoke AoOs, not the standard action table. That's it.
Frugal
08-15-07, 08:21 AM Well, don't do that! It's against the rules. A full attack action is made up of multiple attacks, but not multiple standard action attacks. The two types of actions aren't compatible. You're jumping off a cliff to a conclusion there, Frugal. My reasoning says that you use the full-round action table to determine whether full attacks provoke AoOs, not the standard action table. That's it.

No, I'm treating full attack as if it's a special exception to the normal limit of 1 standard action and 1 move action in a round. I'm taking my interpretation from the wide variety of feats and actions that provide exceptions to this rule (like Spring Attack allowing movement before and after an attack). I'm also taking my interpretation that sometimes you have to look beyond the table. For instance, charge says that it doesn't provoke an AoO, but if I move out of a threatened square it does provoke (yes, this is noted as a footnote), I also could charge and perform a trip attempt without improved trip, by your reasoning because I'm making a charge (which doesn't provoke) I don't provoke from the trip, clearly this is false.

What I'm saying is that sometimes an action can "contain" other actions. I can make a standard action melee attack (which doesn't provoke) and then use that to make a trip (which will provoke if I don't have the proper feat). Similarly, I'm saying that the full attack action can be considered to "contain" a number of attack actions (which can then contain grapples, trips, sunders, etc) and you look at what type of attack action you're making to determine if that attack action provokes.

Saying that a full attack with a ranged weapon won't provoke is a blatant twisting of the rules, my interpretation is completely consistent with the rules for provoking AoO's, has no broader ramifications that I can see, and closes off a a flagrant attempt to abuse the rules. I hardly see that as a bad thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonGhoula 08-13-07, 08:21 PM	Hi guys. As the title says, is there a feat that lets you avoid AoOs when shooting a ranged weapon in threatened squares, and also, is there a feat that lets you make ranged AoOs (as in let you threaten more squares if wielding ranged)? Thanks for the help :D
Tempest Stormwind 08-13-07, 08:25 PM	You threaten NO squares with a ranged weapon for obvious reasons; the mere 10' reach of polearms is already highly sought after. There are ways of avoiding AoOs for shooting in threatened squares (none are feats; Order of the Bow Initiate is one example), but why are you that close to begin with?
Dheran 08-13-07, 09:02 PM	Here's a simple, but controversial, approach: just make a full attack. This follows the letter, but almost certainly not the spirit, of the rules. The AoO for making a ranged attack is only listed under standard actions. The table for full-round actions says that full attacks never provoke AoOs, and the text doesn't contradict this. Time to get in touch with your inner rules lawyer.
NyMpHoMaNiAc_FaNtAsIA 08-14-07, 12:20 AM	You can accomplish both things temporarily with the spell Arrow Mind. The feat Defensive Archery may help you avoid being hit by AoO caused by ranged attacks.
dndlocke 08-14-07, 11:20 AM	For the threatening, i could say quintessential fighter, master bowman. his 2nd level ability allows you to threaten 20' when armed with a bow of any type. but... his prereqs are pretty hard to get BaB +12 or higher, Far shot, point blank shot, precise shot, quick shot, shot on the run, weapon focus, and weapon spec. So its a bow focused fighter of 12th lv or higher can take this class. I mean it just hurts more this way, on top of it his 5th lv ability is basically imp precise shot. cant benefit from more than 1/4 cover if they have total they are immune. But if you take the fighting style blackfeather along with this class you can make touch attacks with your bow, making it deadly. But the class i don't believe is broken really, since you'd have to be lv 14 to use it.
Frugal 08-14-07, 11:27 AM	Here's a simple, but controversial, approach: just make a full attack. This follows the letter, but almost certainly not the spirit, of the rules. The AoO for making a ranged attack is only listed under standard actions. The table for full-round actions says that full attacks never provoke AoOs, and the text doesn't contradict this. Time to get in touch with your inner rules lawyer. Well actually, full attack says that you get to make more than 1 attack (if you are using TWF or have a high enough BAB), so you could interpret that to mean that it allows you to make multiple attack actions, which are then determined if they provoke accordingly.
Dheran 08-14-07, 04:07 PM	Well actually, full attack says that you get to make more than 1 attack (if you are using TWF or have a high enough BAB), so you could interpret that to mean that it allows you to make multiple attack actions, which are then determined if they provoke accordingly. That's fine, but to determine if they provoke you can't use the standard action table, because you're not allowed to make a standard action attack in the same round as a full attack. It's only under standard actions that they list a ranged attack as provoking AoOs.
Frugal 08-14-07, 07:05 PM	That's fine, but to determine if they provoke you can't use the standard action table, because you're not allowed to make a standard action attack in the same round as a full attack. It's only under standard actions that they list a ranged attack as provoking AoOs. No, I'm interpreting that the full attack action allows you to make multiple attack actions. You then lookup the attack action in question and see if it provokes. By your reasoning you also can't make unarmed attacks as part of a full attack action because it's only listed as a standard action as well.
Dheran 08-15-07, 07:35 AM	No, I'm interpreting that the full attack action allows you to make multiple attack actions. Well, don't do that! It's against the rules. A full attack action is made up of multiple attacks, but not multiple standard action attacks. The two types of actions aren't compatible.By your reasoning you also can't make unarmed attacks as part of a full attack action because it's only listed as a standard action as well. You're jumping off a cliff to a conclusion there, Frugal. My reasoning says that you use the full-round action table to determine whether full attacks provoke AoOs, not the standard action table. That's it.
Frugal 08-15-07, 08:21 AM	Well, don't do that! It's against the rules. A full attack action is made up of multiple attacks, but not multiple standard action attacks. The two types of actions aren't compatible. You're jumping off a cliff to a conclusion there, Frugal. My reasoning says that you use the full-round action table to determine whether full attacks provoke AoOs, not the standard action table. That's it. No, I'm treating full attack as if it's a special exception to the normal limit of 1 standard action and 1 move action in a round. I'm taking my interpretation from the wide variety of feats and actions that provide exceptions to this rule (like Spring Attack allowing movement before and after an attack). I'm also taking my interpretation that sometimes you have to look beyond the table. For instance, charge says that it doesn't provoke an AoO, but if I move out of a threatened square it does provoke (yes, this is noted as a footnote), I also could charge and perform a trip attempt without improved trip, by your reasoning because I'm making a charge (which doesn't provoke) I don't provoke from the trip, clearly this is false. What I'm saying is that sometimes an action can "contain" other actions. I can make a standard action melee attack (which doesn't provoke) and then use that to make a trip (which will provoke if I don't have the proper feat). Similarly, I'm saying that the full attack action can be considered to "contain" a number of attack actions (which can then contain grapples, trips, sunders, etc) and you look at what type of attack action you're making to determine if that attack action provokes. Saying that a full attack with a ranged weapon won't provoke is a blatant twisting of the rules, my interpretation is completely consistent with the rules for provoking AoO's, has no broader ramifications that I can see, and closes off a a flagrant attempt to abuse the rules. I hardly see that as a bad thing.