goblin rogue from level 1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

goblin rogue from level 1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rahlious
12-04-07, 06:03 PM Hello. I'm getting into a new DnD 3.5 campaign and I think we're starting at level 1. The DM said his world will be a bit similar to Eberron but I'm not sure of the details. If he allows me to play a goblin then I'm probably going to make a goblin rogue. I think our starting stats won't be that high (prob 25 point buy) so I'm going to focus on dex and get weapon finesse at level 3.

What feat would make a good choice for level 1?
SilverFoxKnows
12-04-07, 06:27 PM Too many variables. If it's a game heavy on skill use, you might consider a Skill Focus. If you end up being the archer of the group you might consider Point Blank Shot. Improved Initiative is always good, any class, any level. Core only?

Frank
Rahlious
12-04-07, 08:08 PM I think we are using most or all of the complete books. I'm not going to be the party's archer because I don't think that suits me.

Improved init huh? That would make my initiative +7 or +8 which is nice. I'll keep skill focus in mind, though.

I'm also thinking about two-weapon fighting. It seems like through tumbling around to get into flanking spot, I might not be able to get a full-attack with sneak very often. But when I do it's great. If I don't have two-weapon fighting, I can have a higher AC via a shield (masterwork buckler or mithral heavy shield + magic enhancements as time goes on). Of course the AC benefits won't happen right away - if I survive, I can spend gold on that type of stuff.
BugHunter
12-04-07, 09:35 PM Telling blow from PHB2 gives you another way of getting sneak damage. You only need to have sneak attack or skirmish.
Talcon
12-05-07, 10:19 AM Improved Initiative is one of the main feats need for most rogue base PrC. I like Arcane schooling from forgotton realms if your DM will let you.
RobbyPants
12-05-07, 12:07 PM I'm also thinking about two-weapon fighting.
This is a good route to go, and it will really start paying off at 3rd level when you get Weapon Finesse. However, you will have to live with a very bad attack modifier and pretty low damage until that point. Unless you're fairly certain to hit, consider using only one weapon until that point, even if you have the TWF feat. You just take it at level 1 because you have the feat available.

Does your DM allow any of the complete series? If so, the Complete Scoundrel has a feat called Daring Outlaw that allows you to combine levels of swashbuckler and rogue quite nicely. It might be a way for you to do better at lower levels. Even with this, I'd like to start as a rogue at level 1 (mostly for the skill points), but at level 2, a the 1st level of swashbuckler gives you Weapon Finesse.

A build like that doesn't start paying off until 6th level, when you can take Daring Outlaw. Then, you'll count as a 6th level rogue for purposes of determining sneak attack. If you go this route, I suggest four levels of rogue and 16 of swashbuckler. In the end, it's up to you. You get a better BAB this way, but you miss out on some of the higher end rogue abilities. Either way, have fun with it! Goblins make great rogues, both mechanically and for flavor.
Sunai_Retsinis
12-06-07, 10:27 AM What is very nice, Sneak attack will work on both weapons if you use TWF: I had a halfling rogue at level 6 (ftr1/rog5), and with TWF it was great fun.

It works very well, even if you are lower level: a rog1 with twf and strength 12 can make an attack with each weapon: say 1d6+1+1d4+(2*1d6), at a AB of -3/-3 (BAB=0, STR+1, TWF -4)
This is, in my opinion, viable.

It is even better to take a fighter level first, which gives acces to TWF and weapon finesse, making it easily to do for a high-dex rogue. From your description I conclude that you have a dex of 16, so the level afterward (ftr1/rog1) you can do the same as above with an AB of +0/+0. This does cost skill points. If that is a problem, take rog1 first, then ftr1, en take Weapon finesse last.

Good luck,
Sunai
RobbyPants
12-06-07, 11:04 AM It is even better to take a fighter level first, which gives acces to TWF and weapon finesse, making it easily to do for a high-dex rogue. From your description I conclude that you have a dex of 16, so the level afterward (ftr1/rog1) you can do the same as above with an AB of +0/+0. This does cost skill points. If that is a problem, take rog1 first, then ftr1, en take Weapon finesse last.
If you're going to use your fighter bonus feat for Weapon Finesse, you might as well take a level of Swashbucker instead. You'll get two extra skill points, the same hit dice, saves, and BAB. The only thing you miss out on is the medium and heavy armor proficiency, but you don't need those anyway.

The other nice thing is that you can take Daring Outlaw to really synergize the two, effectively not losing a single level of sneak attack progression.

Now, if you want to hit reliably from level one, take the first level as swashbuckler. It gives the benifit of four more HP, a better BAB, and Weapon Finesses. You can probably (with a 25-point point buy) expect about a +4 or +5 difference in your attack mod this route. The problem with it is that you get much fewer skill points, and your class skills are really limited. In the not-so-long run (say, by level two), you're better off starting as a rogue. You just have to be careful that level, and you won't contribute as much.

Also, for a 3rd level feat, I'd strongly suggest Quick Draw if you take TWF at 1st level. You'll want the ability to get both of your weapons out on the first round.
Sunai_Retsinis
12-06-07, 11:17 AM In that case, I second RobbyPants suggestion of the Swashbuckler.
I was unaware of the good BAB, and misread you previous description of it, and thought weapon finesse was a second level special of the class.

Sunai
Nightshade
12-06-07, 09:42 PM I'm with Robbypants. For example:

1/R1- Improved Initiative
2/Sw1- Weapon Finesse
3/R2- Two-Weapon Fighting
4/R3
5/Sw2
6/Sw3- Daring Outlaw
...

After that, I'd probably continue in Rogue as it has more useful abilities and more skill points.
1 ton ghost
12-07-07, 01:04 PM despite the flock urging TWF, i would advise against it given your Str penalty, d6 HD, and all. not truly actionable until 3rd lvl and you'd be better suited w/ Weapon Finesse. go ranged as long as you can where it's safer. ie)cover all the time, Hide/MoveSil for pot shots, etc. you know the drill.
flank if you must and all, but the risk outweighs the benefits at 1st lvl now.

you're the troubleshooter: having both hands occupied is trouble in itself in many instances and losing 2 move actions to sheath 2 blades is bad (unless you can afford to drop them) when you can sheath one and still have a move to get your potion as you're about to die, tools, open a door, etc.
consider the rest of your party, namely your tank.

stay rogue, keep it as your 1st lvl: capitalize on the (8+Int) x4. get your Int and Dex as high as possible for ranks, extra languages, and skill tricks (recommend Sudden Draw later on too) if you should multi later, you'll be glad rogue was 1st.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rahlious 12-04-07, 06:03 PM	Hello. I'm getting into a new DnD 3.5 campaign and I think we're starting at level 1. The DM said his world will be a bit similar to Eberron but I'm not sure of the details. If he allows me to play a goblin then I'm probably going to make a goblin rogue. I think our starting stats won't be that high (prob 25 point buy) so I'm going to focus on dex and get weapon finesse at level 3. What feat would make a good choice for level 1?
SilverFoxKnows 12-04-07, 06:27 PM	Too many variables. If it's a game heavy on skill use, you might consider a Skill Focus. If you end up being the archer of the group you might consider Point Blank Shot. Improved Initiative is always good, any class, any level. Core only? Frank
Rahlious 12-04-07, 08:08 PM	I think we are using most or all of the complete books. I'm not going to be the party's archer because I don't think that suits me. Improved init huh? That would make my initiative +7 or +8 which is nice. I'll keep skill focus in mind, though. I'm also thinking about two-weapon fighting. It seems like through tumbling around to get into flanking spot, I might not be able to get a full-attack with sneak very often. But when I do it's great. If I don't have two-weapon fighting, I can have a higher AC via a shield (masterwork buckler or mithral heavy shield + magic enhancements as time goes on). Of course the AC benefits won't happen right away - if I survive, I can spend gold on that type of stuff.
BugHunter 12-04-07, 09:35 PM	Telling blow from PHB2 gives you another way of getting sneak damage. You only need to have sneak attack or skirmish.
Talcon 12-05-07, 10:19 AM	Improved Initiative is one of the main feats need for most rogue base PrC. I like Arcane schooling from forgotton realms if your DM will let you.
RobbyPants 12-05-07, 12:07 PM	I'm also thinking about two-weapon fighting. This is a good route to go, and it will really start paying off at 3rd level when you get Weapon Finesse. However, you will have to live with a very bad attack modifier and pretty low damage until that point. Unless you're fairly certain to hit, consider using only one weapon until that point, even if you have the TWF feat. You just take it at level 1 because you have the feat available. Does your DM allow any of the complete series? If so, the Complete Scoundrel has a feat called Daring Outlaw that allows you to combine levels of swashbuckler and rogue quite nicely. It might be a way for you to do better at lower levels. Even with this, I'd like to start as a rogue at level 1 (mostly for the skill points), but at level 2, a the 1st level of swashbuckler gives you Weapon Finesse. A build like that doesn't start paying off until 6th level, when you can take Daring Outlaw. Then, you'll count as a 6th level rogue for purposes of determining sneak attack. If you go this route, I suggest four levels of rogue and 16 of swashbuckler. In the end, it's up to you. You get a better BAB this way, but you miss out on some of the higher end rogue abilities. Either way, have fun with it! Goblins make great rogues, both mechanically and for flavor.
Sunai_Retsinis 12-06-07, 10:27 AM	What is very nice, Sneak attack will work on both weapons if you use TWF: I had a halfling rogue at level 6 (ftr1/rog5), and with TWF it was great fun. It works very well, even if you are lower level: a rog1 with twf and strength 12 can make an attack with each weapon: say 1d6+1+1d4+(2*1d6), at a AB of -3/-3 (BAB=0, STR+1, TWF -4) This is, in my opinion, viable. It is even better to take a fighter level first, which gives acces to TWF and weapon finesse, making it easily to do for a high-dex rogue. From your description I conclude that you have a dex of 16, so the level afterward (ftr1/rog1) you can do the same as above with an AB of +0/+0. This does cost skill points. If that is a problem, take rog1 first, then ftr1, en take Weapon finesse last. Good luck, Sunai
RobbyPants 12-06-07, 11:04 AM	It is even better to take a fighter level first, which gives acces to TWF and weapon finesse, making it easily to do for a high-dex rogue. From your description I conclude that you have a dex of 16, so the level afterward (ftr1/rog1) you can do the same as above with an AB of +0/+0. This does cost skill points. If that is a problem, take rog1 first, then ftr1, en take Weapon finesse last. If you're going to use your fighter bonus feat for Weapon Finesse, you might as well take a level of Swashbucker instead. You'll get two extra skill points, the same hit dice, saves, and BAB. The only thing you miss out on is the medium and heavy armor proficiency, but you don't need those anyway. The other nice thing is that you can take Daring Outlaw to really synergize the two, effectively not losing a single level of sneak attack progression. Now, if you want to hit reliably from level one, take the first level as swashbuckler. It gives the benifit of four more HP, a better BAB, and Weapon Finesses. You can probably (with a 25-point point buy) expect about a +4 or +5 difference in your attack mod this route. The problem with it is that you get much fewer skill points, and your class skills are really limited. In the not-so-long run (say, by level two), you're better off starting as a rogue. You just have to be careful that level, and you won't contribute as much. Also, for a 3rd level feat, I'd strongly suggest Quick Draw if you take TWF at 1st level. You'll want the ability to get both of your weapons out on the first round.
Sunai_Retsinis 12-06-07, 11:17 AM	In that case, I second RobbyPants suggestion of the Swashbuckler. I was unaware of the good BAB, and misread you previous description of it, and thought weapon finesse was a second level special of the class. Sunai
Nightshade 12-06-07, 09:42 PM	I'm with Robbypants. For example: 1/R1- Improved Initiative 2/Sw1- Weapon Finesse 3/R2- Two-Weapon Fighting 4/R3 5/Sw2 6/Sw3- Daring Outlaw ... After that, I'd probably continue in Rogue as it has more useful abilities and more skill points.
1 ton ghost 12-07-07, 01:04 PM	despite the flock urging TWF, i would advise against it given your Str penalty, d6 HD, and all. not truly actionable until 3rd lvl and you'd be better suited w/ Weapon Finesse. go ranged as long as you can where it's safer. ie)cover all the time, Hide/MoveSil for pot shots, etc. you know the drill. flank if you must and all, but the risk outweighs the benefits at 1st lvl now. you're the troubleshooter: having both hands occupied is trouble in itself in many instances and losing 2 move actions to sheath 2 blades is bad (unless you can afford to drop them) when you can sheath one and still have a move to get your potion as you're about to die, tools, open a door, etc. consider the rest of your party, namely your tank. stay rogue, keep it as your 1st lvl: capitalize on the (8+Int) x4. get your Int and Dex as high as possible for ranks, extra languages, and skill tricks (recommend Sudden Draw later on too) if you should multi later, you'll be glad rogue was 1st.