Harvesting poison from vermin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Harvesting poison from vermin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
eagleye
10-24-07, 07:52 AM The entry on Jungle Halflings state that they are proficient with poison use and that they know how to harvest poison from vermin. I wonder now if there are any rules on this? Do you have to kill the animal to capture 1 dose of its poison, do you have to make a handle animal check? A survival check? What are the DCs? What are the chances of getting yourself poisoned in the process of doing so?
The_Shaman
10-24-07, 08:25 AM In a game I played the DM decreed that it would take a heal check to harvest venom off a monstrous spider we faced. It made little sense, but I got 3 doses of huge spider venom for free. Yay for skills! IMO survival,handle animal (if it's alive) or craft (poisonmaking) would be just as, if not more, applicable.
goawayugh
10-24-07, 03:11 PM In one book (either A&EG or CAd) it says that just harvesting the venom is not the poison itself, it is the raw materials used to make the poison. It still has to be refined via the Craft (poisonmaking) skill. So, getting the venom will mean that you have free raw materials to work with, and don't have to pay for them.
The_Shaman
10-25-07, 06:49 AM That makes little sense, though. So if the spider bites you, the toxin is poisonous, but if you use it, it's not? I can understand craft check to stabilize and preserve it, though, or to refine it. It's not like plant toxins, which you have to refine or distill.
goawayugh
10-25-07, 07:04 AM That makes little sense, though. So if the spider bites you, the toxin is poisonous, but if you use it, it's not? I can understand craft check to stabilize and preserve it, though, or to refine it. It's not like plant toxins, which you have to refine or distill.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if it makes sense to me either. I think they did it mostly for balance reasons.

They said something about how when the vermin is alive that it's body can mix the proper amount of the different ingredients for the poison. And that once it is no longer alive, it won't be mixed right.

I'll see if I can find it tonight and give you a quote (or at least a good summary).
eagleye
10-25-07, 07:17 AM Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if it makes sense to me either. I think they did it mostly for balance reasons.

They said something about how when the vermin is alive that it's body can mix the proper amount of the different ingredients for the poison. And that once it is no longer alive, it won't be mixed right.

I'll see if I can find it tonight and give you a quote (or at least a good summary).That would be great. Poison is a very effective weapon that can add a lot of flavor, both in combat and when harvesting it.
imakuni67
10-25-07, 11:31 AM Does BoVD have better poison rules?
1 ton ghost
10-25-07, 12:35 PM In one book (either A&EG or CAd) it says that just harvesting the venom is not the poison itself, it is the raw materials used to make the poison. It still has to be refined via the Craft (poisonmaking) skill. So, getting the venom will mean that you have free raw materials to work with, and don't have to pay for them.

he's absolutely right.
i know, everyone wants a batch of tree frogs at their disposal, but it's just not that simple. just like real life, you have to refine the raw materials in most cases to make the poison viable in the long run.

that is, unless you plan on harvesting it on-the-spot and immediately using it w/in the next few minutes, most biological poisons oxidize, lose their 'umph, or become inert w/out host catalysts, body temp., a million variables. too much can go wrong. must be refined. even cyanide is concentrated and cooked up to be something special and quick in a lab.
in game balance, it's too powerful of a weapon to just acquire so easilly by killing monster 'x' and sniping off it's stinger. not realistic either.
typically, you gotta' pay alot of $ (it's rare, very hard), get some ranks (might draw attention as to "why is he learning tabboo") and raw materials (you have to survive encounter w/ venomnous monters, or search a long time for that rare nightshade plant, etc.) all dangerous ventures, but the reward is often worth the risk...

Craft Poisonmaking is essentially just refining pre-existing poisons so they can actually have a respectable DC, change their vector (contact to ingestion, vice versa etc.), but most importantly, so they can have a shelf life; this means it can be sold after a fashion, but namely, it insures survivability after harvest. also, you coat most of them on a weapon, normally, refining keeps it from evaporating too quickly, makes it more viscous so it doesn't run off the blade (water to jam so to speak), etc. etc.

typically, i recommend a Heal check immediately after combat to represent autopsy or necropsy given species. this must be done fast, you are essentially playing organ donor and when the blood stops flowing, bla bla bla
-Heal DC should reflect difficult of anatomy/extraction (lot of natural armor could be tough to crack through, how the creature died, positioning, etc.)
-harvested venom gland usually needs to be cared for very specifically. in a pinch, Gentle Repose should handle most cases w/out worry. but you might have alignment issues w/ said caster and the legality of this venture...
-get thee to a lab: generic game mechanics formula takes over from here.
-make poison; use MW lab/tools, line up a buyer, or find some low Fort Save enemies, and always carry an Antitox just in case....you might not have Poison Use (Ex) but that shouldn't stop a non lawful type.
goawayugh
10-26-07, 07:35 AM Does BoVD have better poison rules?

That's where it is!

It basically says what 1 ton ghost and I have already said.Most creature's poisons are a delicate mixture of various toxins, and that delicate mix is often disrupted when the creature dies or the poison is exposed to the air. Getting the poison to persist on a blade and remain effective is a trickier task still. Refining raw materials, such as creature venom, into an effective poison requires time, determination, and an application of craft.It then continues on to explain how to use the Craft (poisonmaking) skill. The rules for this skill are also in the A&EG and CAd.
KrisTheGreat
11-04-07, 11:06 PM i have come across this problem before i made the check to harvest the venom a profession hunter check. this skill covers all processing and havesting of all animals and things of this nature. The other problem that i discoverd was what do you do to determine the dc of the craft poisonmaking check so i came up with a system enjoy

Craft (poisonmaking)

When making a poison from a creature that is venomous but not listed apply the following system to determine cost and time

DC to create a poison

base dc of the raw venom used

+2 dc for each additional dice of damage after the first

+2 for Str and Con damage (due to the effectiveness and
deadliness of the poison)

+2 for contact poison or inhailed

-2 for ingested poison

+2 for each dice lvl higher than d6 damage

-2 for each dice lvl lower than d6 damage

+5 for a poison that causes death

+5 for non damaging effect eg. sleep or paralysis

+2 for secondary damage

To calculate the market value of crafting the poison use the following formula

DC to create the poison x 50 gold pieces

Eg.

Ashworm Poison (sandstorm)

Base DC 14

+ 2 for doing 2d6 damage

+ 2 for doing Str damage

+ 2 for doing secondary damage

Total craft DC is 20 Total market value 20 x 50 = 1000 gp

Once the market value is determined the crafter must pay one sixth the market value in materials assuming that the materials and equipment (must have at least a portable alchemist lab to make poisons} are readily available.

At an additional cost the of 300 gp you can attempt a DC 20 Craft [poisonmaking] to make the poison masterwork which grants the poison a +2 DC the cost represents the purchase of supurior and purified ingredents to help make the venom more potent.

I recommend that you all as dm's impose a rule that only one dose of venom can be harvested form one creature not because the poison is over power but it limits the players ability to make mass amounts to be sold on the open market.

if anyone has any questions feel free to ask enjoy

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eagleye 10-24-07, 07:52 AM	The entry on Jungle Halflings state that they are proficient with poison use and that they know how to harvest poison from vermin. I wonder now if there are any rules on this? Do you have to kill the animal to capture 1 dose of its poison, do you have to make a handle animal check? A survival check? What are the DCs? What are the chances of getting yourself poisoned in the process of doing so?
The_Shaman 10-24-07, 08:25 AM	In a game I played the DM decreed that it would take a heal check to harvest venom off a monstrous spider we faced. It made little sense, but I got 3 doses of huge spider venom for free. Yay for skills! IMO survival,handle animal (if it's alive) or craft (poisonmaking) would be just as, if not more, applicable.
goawayugh 10-24-07, 03:11 PM	In one book (either A&EG or CAd) it says that just harvesting the venom is not the poison itself, it is the raw materials used to make the poison. It still has to be refined via the Craft (poisonmaking) skill. So, getting the venom will mean that you have free raw materials to work with, and don't have to pay for them.
The_Shaman 10-25-07, 06:49 AM	That makes little sense, though. So if the spider bites you, the toxin is poisonous, but if you use it, it's not? I can understand craft check to stabilize and preserve it, though, or to refine it. It's not like plant toxins, which you have to refine or distill.
goawayugh 10-25-07, 07:04 AM	That makes little sense, though. So if the spider bites you, the toxin is poisonous, but if you use it, it's not? I can understand craft check to stabilize and preserve it, though, or to refine it. It's not like plant toxins, which you have to refine or distill. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if it makes sense to me either. I think they did it mostly for balance reasons. They said something about how when the vermin is alive that it's body can mix the proper amount of the different ingredients for the poison. And that once it is no longer alive, it won't be mixed right. I'll see if I can find it tonight and give you a quote (or at least a good summary).
eagleye 10-25-07, 07:17 AM	Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if it makes sense to me either. I think they did it mostly for balance reasons. They said something about how when the vermin is alive that it's body can mix the proper amount of the different ingredients for the poison. And that once it is no longer alive, it won't be mixed right. I'll see if I can find it tonight and give you a quote (or at least a good summary).That would be great. Poison is a very effective weapon that can add a lot of flavor, both in combat and when harvesting it.
imakuni67 10-25-07, 11:31 AM	Does BoVD have better poison rules?
1 ton ghost 10-25-07, 12:35 PM	In one book (either A&EG or CAd) it says that just harvesting the venom is not the poison itself, it is the raw materials used to make the poison. It still has to be refined via the Craft (poisonmaking) skill. So, getting the venom will mean that you have free raw materials to work with, and don't have to pay for them. he's absolutely right. i know, everyone wants a batch of tree frogs at their disposal, but it's just not that simple. just like real life, you have to refine the raw materials in most cases to make the poison viable in the long run. that is, unless you plan on harvesting it on-the-spot and immediately using it w/in the next few minutes, most biological poisons oxidize, lose their 'umph, or become inert w/out host catalysts, body temp., a million variables. too much can go wrong. must be refined. even cyanide is concentrated and cooked up to be something special and quick in a lab. in game balance, it's too powerful of a weapon to just acquire so easilly by killing monster 'x' and sniping off it's stinger. not realistic either. typically, you gotta' pay alot of $ (it's rare, very hard), get some ranks (might draw attention as to "why is he learning tabboo") and raw materials (you have to survive encounter w/ venomnous monters, or search a long time for that rare nightshade plant, etc.) all dangerous ventures, but the reward is often worth the risk... Craft Poisonmaking is essentially just refining pre-existing poisons so they can actually have a respectable DC, change their vector (contact to ingestion, vice versa etc.), but most importantly, so they can have a shelf life; this means it can be sold after a fashion, but namely, it insures survivability after harvest. also, you coat most of them on a weapon, normally, refining keeps it from evaporating too quickly, makes it more viscous so it doesn't run off the blade (water to jam so to speak), etc. etc. typically, i recommend a Heal check immediately after combat to represent autopsy or necropsy given species. this must be done fast, you are essentially playing organ donor and when the blood stops flowing, bla bla bla -Heal DC should reflect difficult of anatomy/extraction (lot of natural armor could be tough to crack through, how the creature died, positioning, etc.) -harvested venom gland usually needs to be cared for very specifically. in a pinch, Gentle Repose should handle most cases w/out worry. but you might have alignment issues w/ said caster and the legality of this venture... -get thee to a lab: generic game mechanics formula takes over from here. -make poison; use MW lab/tools, line up a buyer, or find some low Fort Save enemies, and always carry an Antitox just in case....you might not have Poison Use (Ex) but that shouldn't stop a non lawful type.
goawayugh 10-26-07, 07:35 AM	Does BoVD have better poison rules? That's where it is! It basically says what 1 ton ghost and I have already said.Most creature's poisons are a delicate mixture of various toxins, and that delicate mix is often disrupted when the creature dies or the poison is exposed to the air. Getting the poison to persist on a blade and remain effective is a trickier task still. Refining raw materials, such as creature venom, into an effective poison requires time, determination, and an application of craft.It then continues on to explain how to use the Craft (poisonmaking) skill. The rules for this skill are also in the A&EG and CAd.
KrisTheGreat 11-04-07, 11:06 PM	i have come across this problem before i made the check to harvest the venom a profession hunter check. this skill covers all processing and havesting of all animals and things of this nature. The other problem that i discoverd was what do you do to determine the dc of the craft poisonmaking check so i came up with a system enjoy Craft (poisonmaking) When making a poison from a creature that is venomous but not listed apply the following system to determine cost and time DC to create a poison base dc of the raw venom used +2 dc for each additional dice of damage after the first +2 for Str and Con damage (due to the effectiveness and deadliness of the poison) +2 for contact poison or inhailed -2 for ingested poison +2 for each dice lvl higher than d6 damage -2 for each dice lvl lower than d6 damage +5 for a poison that causes death +5 for non damaging effect eg. sleep or paralysis +2 for secondary damage To calculate the market value of crafting the poison use the following formula DC to create the poison x 50 gold pieces Eg. Ashworm Poison (sandstorm) Base DC 14 + 2 for doing 2d6 damage + 2 for doing Str damage + 2 for doing secondary damage Total craft DC is 20 Total market value 20 x 50 = 1000 gp Once the market value is determined the crafter must pay one sixth the market value in materials assuming that the materials and equipment (must have at least a portable alchemist lab to make poisons} are readily available. At an additional cost the of 300 gp you can attempt a DC 20 Craft [poisonmaking] to make the poison masterwork which grants the poison a +2 DC the cost represents the purchase of supurior and purified ingredents to help make the venom more potent. I recommend that you all as dm's impose a rule that only one dose of venom can be harvested form one creature not because the poison is over power but it limits the players ability to make mass amounts to be sold on the open market. if anyone has any questions feel free to ask enjoy