Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DreadWizardDM 04-06-08, 03:02 PM	Hello and thanks for looking. Currently there is an arguement raging in the group as to whether or not Improved Evasion would save a rogue against that stupid epic spell "Crown of Vermin". From the SRD: Evasion (Ex) At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion. Improved Evasion (Ex) This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. Crown Of Vermin Conjuration (Summoning) Spellcraft DC: 56 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Personal Effect: Aura of one thousand insects that surrounds you in a 10-ft.-radius spread Duration: 20 rounds (D) Saving Throw: None (see text) Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 504,000 gp; 11 days; 20,160 XP. Seeds: summon (DC 14), fortify (DC 17). Factors: summon vermin mass instead of one creature (ad hoc +8 DC), grant damage reduction 1/epic (+15 DC), allow mass to move at your speed (ad hoc +2 DC), perfect control of vermin (ad hoc +2 DC). Mitigating factor: change range to personal (-2 DC). After casting crown of vermin, one thousand venomous, biting and stinging spiders, scorpions, beetles, and centipedes erupt from the very air around the character. This swarm forms a living aura around the character to a radius of 10 feet. The character is immune to his or her own crown of vermin. The swarm goes where the character goes at his or her speed, even if the character takes to the air or water (though water drowns the vermin after 1 full round of immersion, unless the spell is cast underwater, in which case aquatic or marine vermin answer the call and cannot leave the water). Each vermin in the crown of vermin bites a creature who enters the area occupied by the effect (or the character forces the effect into an area occupied by another creature) for 1 point of damage, and then dies. Each victim takes enough points of damage to kill it, destroying that number of vermin in the process. Victims get a Reflex saving throw each round to avoid the full press, and if successful, take only 10d10 bites (and 10d10 points of damage). A total of 1,000 points of damage can be dealt to those who fall prey to the crown of vermin. The vermin have damage reduction 1/epic, so the vermin’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. If there aren’t enough vermin to kill all the creatures in the spell’s effect, the creature with the fewest hit points is affected first, then the creature with the second fewest hit points, and so on. After all creatures that can be killed have been killed, any remaining damage is distributed among the survivors equally. The character has utter control over the vermin in his or her aura, and can force them into areas that would normally deter common vermin. The character can completely suppress his or her vermin aura as a free action so that no vermin are visible at all. The time that vermin are suppressed does not count toward the spell’s duration. Alternatively, the character can roughly shape and move the vermin in any fashion he or she desires within the limits of the 10-foot-radius spread as a move-equivalent action. The vermin cannot be wrested from the character’s control through any means. The vermin make all saving throws to avoid damaging effects using the character’s base saving throw bonuses. They gain the character’s spell resistance, if any, and they get saving throws against spells that would otherwise automatically slay vermin. A character can see through his or her crown of vermin without difficulty, but gains one-half concealment against enemy attacks launched both outside and within the character’s crown of vermin. I have highlited some of the key factors of the situation. Under evasion it says that you get no damage. However one mans arguement is that evasion only works if it is "HALF" damage. Other people think that because crown of vermin is a broken epic spell and technically allows a reflex save that evasion should work. Please give your input and help us end this raging arguement. Thanks.
seventh_scroll 04-06-08, 03:12 PM	Based upon the exact wording of the Improved Evasion ability, and the wording of the spell itself, I'd say no. But based on common sense and math(10d10 equals a possible 100 points of damage, wich is much less than half of the possible 1000), I'd say that Improved Evasion should work just fine. This is very much the DM's call.
Vegepygmy 04-06-08, 08:12 PM	This is clearly a "No," IMO.
zeratulcraft 04-06-08, 08:40 PM	Evasion/Improved Evasion triggers on Reflex (Half), this is not one of those spells.
mplindustries 04-06-08, 11:08 PM	Funny thing is, if you had Mettle and this targeted fort or will, it'd actually stop it. Unfortunately, just as others have said, Evasion only works on Reflex for 1/2 saves.
SolEiji 04-06-08, 11:43 PM	Actually I might say yes. The spell says no save, because the spell summons a creature. The creature itself seems to have it's biting attack, which does have a Reflex save associated with it. (EDIT: Oooh, I see the cause of conflict, it's not Reflex HALF. Hmmm.)
DeathlessJuan 04-07-08, 02:16 PM	Evasion/Improved Evasion works? No 1) No reflex save for the spell. It is a summoning spell 2) Fail reflex save vs bites = death (you take enough damage to die) 3) Successful reflex save, you take 10d10 damage, not half (as per Evasion description), not even close to half (500) 4) How do you dodge 1000 bugs intent on biting you? Let me know your secret! That about sums it up, no?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-07-08, 04:30 PM	It's funny that DR 1/(Anything but epic) completely defeats the spell though.
jaelis 04-07-08, 05:41 PM	It's funny that DR 1/(Anything but epic) completely defeats the spell though. Surely epic is sufficient to overcome DR/magic. But yes, it would seem that an adamantine chain shirt would keep you safe. Evasion would not, however.
risner 04-07-08, 09:31 PM	However one mans arguement is that evasion only works if it is "HALF" damage. Other people think that because crown of vermin is a broken epic spell and technically allows a reflex save that evasion should work. Your evasion man is right. Evasion only works on any ability that a Reflex save provides half damage. If the ability (like that spell) doesn't allow half damage on a successful save, then you can't use Evasion with it.
Damned slayer 04-07-08, 09:39 PM	Surely epic is sufficient to overcome DR/magic. But yes, it would seem that an adamantine chain shirt would keep you safe. Evasion would not, however. damage from spells ain't subject to DR
jaelis 04-07-08, 10:28 PM	damage from spells ain't subject to DR But damage from summoned creatures is :)
zeratulcraft 04-08-08, 03:40 AM	4) How do you dodge 1000 bugs intent on biting you? Let me know your secret! Extraordinary abilities are described as breaking the laws of physics in general.
bluedsteel 04-08-08, 03:34 PM	Extraordinary abilities are described as breaking the laws of physics in general. Yeah... and given that it can permit dodging out of, say, a column of fire (flamestrike) or a lightning bolt... dodging bugs ain't that hard. :cool:
abyssalmole 04-08-08, 03:43 PM	Extraordinary abilities are described as breaking the laws of physics in general. are they? feats are extraordinary abilities... now, reserve feats, heck yes I agree... but... skill focus?
jaelis 04-08-08, 04:29 PM	Quoth the srd: Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics.