Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarrion 04-15-08, 03:59 PM	Okay, so the weapon spec. tree (one of the few things that's exclusive to the fighter, unless you're a warblade) totally blows (for the most part) and really aren't worth the feat slots. So, here's a little "fix" I've been thinking up. Weapon Focus Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: Select one weapon with which you are proficient. You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with that weapon. In addition, for every 5 points of BAB you gain after taking this feat, its bonus on attack rolls goes up by 1. For example, if you take this feat with a BAB of +1, then when you reach BAB +6 the bonus from this feat would improve to +2. If you take this feat when you have a BAB of +11, then it would not improve until BAB +16, at which point it would be +2.[rest of text as WF from PHB] Weapon Specialization Prerequisites: Weapon focus in selected weapon, Fighter level 4th or Weapon Focus +2. Benefit: You gain a +2 on weapon damage rolls with the weapon for which you select this feat [or however the text for weapon spec goes]. In addition, for every 5 points of BAB you gain after taking this feat,its bonus on damage rolls increases by 2. For example, if you take this feat with a BAB of +4 (as a fighter for instance), then when you reach BAB +9 the bonus from this feat would improve to +4. If you take this feat when you have a BAB of +6, then it would not improve until BAB +11, at which point it would be +4. Changes to existing feats Remove Greater weapon focus and specialization from existence. Change any text requiring Greater Weapon Focus to "Weapon Focus +2." Change any text requiring Greater Weapon Spec. to "Weapon Specialization +2." Feat Synergies If your bonus on WF and WS are at least +3 and +2 respectively, you gain the bonuses from those two feats to opposed rolls to avoid being disarmed and avoid having your weapon sundered when wielding the weapon for which you chose those feats. Ok. Here's some reasoning for doing these things. Weapon Focus is now MUCH more valuable as it scales with BAB. Also Weapon Spec. is now worth it as well (and available to other classes, which I'm not so sure about keeping). If the fighter takes Weapon Spec at lvl 4, he will end up 2 damage ahead of any character who takes it at level 6 (their earliest oppurtunity), which is how weapon spec works out now anyway :P I think replacing greater focus and spec works out fairly well the way I have it. You would end up meeting the prereqs earlier with my feats than the normal ones (lvl 6 for focus and lvl 4 or 6 for spec) but weapon supremacy (the only feat I can think of with greater focus and spec as prereqs) still requires you to be 18th level fighter to get it. I also like the synergy, just because it makes sense to me, though it may make the feats TOO good, and might be better as a feat all of its own, or maybe a fighter class ability (aka fighter only feat ;) ). So. . . thoughts?
Xavon 04-15-08, 08:20 PM	Should scale with fighter level, not BAB.
ciaran 04-15-08, 08:39 PM	Sure thing. I would suggest that Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec stay the same. But when the advanced versions are selected then scaling occurs, like every 4 fighter levels. I'm also in favor of changing WSepc to +3.
aelryinth 04-15-08, 08:52 PM	Better yet, just key it to the number of Fighter levels you have, or Fighter Bonus feats you have, which are both forms of 'caster level'. Don't make people record the level at which they took the feat...that's just silly. A feat should be worth the level it's taken at, and the level it's being used at. Penalizing someone for a late choice is not a good idea...the early chooser has the benefit of getting use of the feat for many levels as their reward. Really, just have the feat advance at levels 1,3,5,7, etc, so the fighter gets something in his dead levels, or it advances one 'step' up the spec tree for every two Fighter bonus feats (which would get them Supremacy at level 18, right on cue.). ==+Aelryinth
Endarrion 04-15-08, 10:10 PM	Well I never liked the idea of weapon spec. being reserved for the fighter only. I also don't like the idea of someone being able to take the feat and gain a retroactive bonus. That seems silly. This certainly isn't enough to fix the fighter's problems, though making the scaling available to fighters only would help them out. What I was really trying to do was fix these two feats in particular. And making someone record the level at which they took a feat doesn't seem like a big deal to me, though I see where you're coming from, especially since there's no precedent (as far as I know) for doing such a thing. I was thinking that, perhaps, moving the prereq for weapon spec to "Weapon Focus +3" would give the fighter more of an edge. That way, the most any other class could get out of weapon spec. is +4 to damage, while the fighter could get +8. The way to fix this, easily, it to give the fighter weapon focus for free at 1st level, and weapon spec. at 4th. That way they automatically get the most out of it. I'd have to rework my "fighter fix" to work this, especially since my version of the fighter is kinda . . . meh. I dunno, I guess I just don't see that big a deal with making it scale per point of BAB gained rather than at fixed intervals. Like with Superior Unarmed Strike: from 1st to 14th level you've only had IUS, then, at 15th level, you take SUS, and all of a sudden you're doing 1d10 instead of 1d4? Because of one level and a feat? It just seems weird. But hey, if anyone likes the basic idea I've presented here (which I'm sure isn't all that original anyway) they can take it and do what they want with it. I'll probably use it as is.
runestar 04-16-08, 12:02 AM	It does not really do anything to fix the fighter, because the typical fighter usually has no problems doing enough damage as is. Its key problem, as repeatedly emphasized by many other peers on these boards, is its noticeable lack of options, which is why the warblade blows it out of the water. The warblade is comparable to the fighter in terms of damage output at best (though it might have a small advantage at low lvs), but is able to use its maneuvers to mitigate its most glaring weaknesses (eg: iron heart surge vs any debilitating effect, save-boosters vs appropriate attacks, reroll saves/attack rolls etc). This is what the fighter should be focusing on, shoring up on his weaknesses, because his strengths don't really need any improvement, IMO. So you will find that even after revision, your fighter will still fall flat.
RobbyPants 04-16-08, 09:36 AM	It does not really do anything to fix the fighter, because the typical fighter usually has no problems doing enough damage as is. Its key problem, as repeatedly emphasized by many other peers on these boards, is its noticeable lack of options, which is why the warblade blows it out of the water. The warblade is comparable to the fighter in terms of damage output at best (though it might have a small advantage at low lvs), but is able to use its maneuvers to mitigate its most glaring weaknesses (eg: iron heart surge vs any debilitating effect, save-boosters vs appropriate attacks, reroll saves/attack rolls etc). This is what the fighter should be focusing on, shoring up on his weaknesses, because his strengths don't really need any improvement, IMO. So you will find that even after revision, your fighter will still fall flat. +1
Beckettvampire 04-16-08, 08:21 PM	Consider having the fighter be able to take the feats more than once for a weapon and the bonuses stack. So if a fighter had weapon focus:greatsword three times, they got a +3 to attackes with any greatsword. My group has also always allowed Improved Crit and keen to stack, and sometimes even allow a character to take Improved crit multiple times, (the prereq. becomes multiples of 8). This is not fighters only, but usually only fighters have the fets for it. We also rule though, that no weapon will ever have a threat range better than (lower) 15-20, period. And no weapon will ever have a multiplier of greater than x4, period. Makes for a better fighter type, and since MM3, a lot of creatures can't be crit on anyway.
Endarrion 04-16-08, 08:39 PM	Ok. For the sake of the sanity of us all, I am not trying to fix the fighter with two god-forsaken feats. I think the warblade is the fighter fix. I like the idea of a "mundane" fighter, but, in a world of druids and wizards, the mundane fighter is already covered. It's in the DMG and is called "warrior." So please, enough fighter shenanigans. I like the feats I have come up with. I think scaling WF and WS make them more viable than they previously were. I also think that rewarding forethought is a good thing. If someone takes these feats at the earliest opportunity, they gain more than the person who waits. I think that's fine. Oh, and I said I'd have to rework my "fighter fix" to work this, especially since my version of the fighter is kinda . . . meh. So this So you will find that even after revision, your fighter will still fall flat. is unnecessary. EDIT: Consider having the fighter be able to take the feats more than once for a weapon and the bonuses stack. So if a fighter had weapon focus:greatsword three times, they got a +3 to attackes with any greatsword. It's still a feat for a +1 bonus to hit. It would still suck.
RobbyPants 04-17-08, 08:57 AM	I guess I don't think the feats are all that bad as-is. It's just that they don't really add anything all that useful to a fighter. Increasing how much damage they give you isn't really "fixing" them in my opinion.
Endarrion 04-17-08, 09:15 PM	I guess I don't think the feats are all that bad as-is. It's just that they don't really add anything all that useful to a fighter. Increasing how much damage they give you isn't really "fixing" them in my opinion. I think it is :P Weapon Focus is supposed to make you better at hitting things with your weapon. Weapon Specialization is supposed to make you better at damaging things with your weapon. Besides that, I put in the little part about the possible feat synergy. No one's commented on that yet. I think the idea of feats synergizing (like skills) is cool. What does everyone else think about this?
aelryinth 04-18-08, 01:10 PM	Feats do synergize, but as side-effects of choosing them, not primary effects. Making a feat more effective if you have x other feat, as opposed to the feat working better if you just so happen to have it, is simply a different way of addressing the problem with feats. THe problem with the Fighter is feats are considered /= to spells. Upgrade feats, downgrade problem spells, and a whole lot of the Fighter's problems go away. ===Aelryinth
Tordak 04-18-08, 06:41 PM	I did not read all the response (sorry, I mean no disrespect), but I have thought of a similar fix myself. Weapon focus : + 1 to hit with chosen weapon. when you reach character level 6th, increases to +2 (which thus grant the benenfits of greater weapon focus). Weapon spec. : + 2 to damages with chosen weapon. When you hit FIGHTER level 9, increases to +4 (which thus grant the benenfits of greater weapon specialisation). Synergy : if you have both weapon focus and weapon spec, you gain, at FIGHTER level 12, the benefits of melee weapon mastery, so an additionnal +2 to hit and damage with selected weapon (total +4 to hit, + 6 to damage), and +2 to hit and damage with melee weapon of the same category (slashing, bludgeoning or piercing) as the selected weapon. It's similars to yours, with the fighter being the only class (with the warblade) being able to fully benefit of it. Other idea: -adding the weapon focus (the +1 version) bonus to your BAB when using the selected weapon; this is a major change since it allows more attacks earlier in level, more power attack trade off with the weapon, qualifying for other feat ealier (usable only with the selected weapon). It wouldn't qualify you for prestige class earlier though.