Help me understand appraise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help me understand appraise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
antiduke
10-08-07, 01:52 PM Ok so I have a campaign going and there has been some confusion about the skill, appraise.

Is it correct that if an appraise is successful (ie dc 15 and pc gets a 15 or higher) that he knows the value of the item? This is how it seems from the statement below:

"Appraising a rare or exotic item requires a successful check against DC 15, 20, or higher. If the check is successful, you estimate the value correctly; failure means you cannot estimate the item’s value."

I was under the assumption that if you beat the dc by a certain amount you actually "over-appraised" the item? Is this an old rule or just something I'm making up or what?

Currently none of my PCs have the appraise skill and I want there to be some value to this. But to do it I need to know how it works.

Thanks in advance.
RobbyPants
10-08-07, 02:05 PM I was under the assumption that if you beat the dc by a certain amount you actually "over-appraised" the item? Is this an old rule or just something I'm making up or what?
If you beat the DC by quite a bit, it would make sense that your estimate would be more accurate, not less accurate. You might be half remebering an older version, where a successful check got you close, and a failed check put you at 50% - 150% of the value ((2d6 + 3) x 10).

You could work in something like the Disable Device skill, where if you fail by 5 or more, something bad happens. In this case, you could just give them a bad estimate, and let them guess what it means. Of course, if you do this, you'll have to roll the check in secret, so they don't know if their guess is accurate or not. About the only defense against this is to have multiple PCs check the item and see where any discrepencies are.
antiduke
10-08-07, 02:19 PM You might be half remebering an older version, where a successful check got you close, and a failed check put you at 50% - 150% of the value ((2d6 + 3) x 10).

I don't understand.. this is an old version? That is exactly what the srd states about appraise:

"You can appraise common or well-known objects with a DC 12 Appraise check. Failure means that you estimate the value at 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%,) of its actual value."

Edit: Ah I think I see what you are saying.. the old version got you CLOSE with a successful check. But in the current rules a successful check just lets you know the value outright.
RobbyPants
10-08-07, 02:44 PM I don't understand.. this is an old version? That is exactly what the srd states about appraise:
To be honest, I haven't read up on the rules for a while, and I was assuming the part you quoted was the entire entrty. Thus, I (incorrectly) assumed that was an old 3.0 ruling.

So, what excactly is confusing you about the Skill?

Edit:
Okay, I read the SRD on the skill. I guess it looks like if you deem the object "rare or valuable", then they just don't get an estimate on a failed check. The only thing I can see about "over appraising" is if you happen to roll high on a failed check for a common item.
antiduke
10-08-07, 03:00 PM Ok so I understand how the actual skill works now. My current problem though is how do you determine what an item's appraise DC is? Are all common magic items DC 15? If so, this seems like a rather meh skill since there is no way to underestimate the value of very expensive items.

Is the DC of these checks up to the DM? For instance, wands, scrolls, potions, "common" wondrous items.. can these have appraise dcs of 12?
RobbyPants
10-08-07, 03:55 PM Ok so I understand how the actual skill works now. My current problem though is how do you determine what an item's appraise DC is? Are all common magic items DC 15? If so, this seems like a rather meh skill since there is no way to underestimate the value of very expensive items.

Is the DC of these checks up to the DM? For instance, wands, scrolls, potions, "common" wondrous items.. can these have appraise dcs of 12?
I guess I (this is personal opinion, not RAW supported fact) would consider typical mundane items to be "common", and unique or culture-specific objects of art to be rare or exotic. I tend to picture exotic to be something foreign compared to the appraiser.

As for magial items, I don't think you could appraise anything more than the item itself (not its enchantment) with Appraise. Thus, if you went to appraise a +1 Flaming Longsword before idendifying it, you'd only be able to appraise it as a masterwork longsword. Detect Magic could tell you that it's magical (thus you know it's worth more), and Identify or Analyze Dwemor could tell you what the item is. As for figuring out the market price for a particular item, that might fall more under the realm of Spellcraft of Knowledge(Arcana). I guess I've never put much thought into that, as the players tend to have a good idea of basic market prices anyway.
j3st3r
10-08-07, 05:19 PM 101 Mundane Treasures and Another 101 Mundane Treasures from Ronin Arts (http://www.roninarts.com/store/default.php?cPath=2_10_21) has unique non-magical treasures that all have their own appraising DC. The DC won't just reveal the price, but also details, perhaps even some background of the item. Good PDF's with lots of interesting items with rich details, especially valuable for campaigns with low magic.
Killydd
10-08-07, 05:57 PM I believe that at least the core version of appraise just lets you value various art and gems. If you don't have a bargaining system in place, people in town will pay what its worth and the appraise skill is only useful for determining if something is just not worth enough to bother hauling back(say a very bulky tapestry in bad condition). If you do apply some sort of bargaining, a failed appraise check might result in the PC's not being able to sell an item because they ask too much for it, or selling it for far too little.

Also, consider varying DC's for the same item. a DC 12 might reveal that a pendant would be worth 500gp on the open market, but a dc 20 check would reveal that it was made in ancient Netheril and could command up to 1500 from an interested buyer.
war_thog
10-09-07, 09:31 AM Once you know what a magic item does you could use appraise to determine its value.
I'd probably differentiate the DC for magic items based on whether they are minor, medium or major items. Leave it at that, nice and easy.

Its a skill thats there for you to customise.
Basically if you feel your PC's rolled well enough, let em know, if they did really well, reward them, if they failed, crucify them!

They find a gem worth 2k. Fail appraise and try to sell it for 1k :P
Use your appraise check to set the base price of what they will ask for it.
Then use "bartering" *diplomacy usually* to alter this. Obviously if they ask too high the merchant will demand less, but then the PC could end up not selling his stuff as he feels hes being ripped off :P

Ah the possibilities are limitless!
antiduke
10-09-07, 11:35 AM Ya that is pretty much what I have decided on.. when they fail a check they either value the item as too much or not enough. The problem is that it seems like alot of time and rolls for very little in results. I went through all of my treasure in my campaign and made appraise checks for the party as well as my shopkeeper. Then I compared the prices they would get from doing that to someone who had max ranks in appraise and it ended up being a measly 3k gold difference.

The trouble with appraise is it seems like it is only truly valuable for those very expensive items and the low chance that they will appraise it at half value. But chances are just as good that they will appraise it for 150% value and will either hold on to it a little longer or sell it for its actual price.. hell they could even bluff someone into buying it for MORE than its worth. So I've decided just to not bother with the skill with the exception of them trying to determine if an item is valuable enough for them to take home.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
antiduke 10-08-07, 01:52 PM	Ok so I have a campaign going and there has been some confusion about the skill, appraise. Is it correct that if an appraise is successful (ie dc 15 and pc gets a 15 or higher) that he knows the value of the item? This is how it seems from the statement below: "Appraising a rare or exotic item requires a successful check against DC 15, 20, or higher. If the check is successful, you estimate the value correctly; failure means you cannot estimate the item’s value." I was under the assumption that if you beat the dc by a certain amount you actually "over-appraised" the item? Is this an old rule or just something I'm making up or what? Currently none of my PCs have the appraise skill and I want there to be some value to this. But to do it I need to know how it works. Thanks in advance.
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 02:05 PM	I was under the assumption that if you beat the dc by a certain amount you actually "over-appraised" the item? Is this an old rule or just something I'm making up or what? If you beat the DC by quite a bit, it would make sense that your estimate would be more accurate, not less accurate. You might be half remebering an older version, where a successful check got you close, and a failed check put you at 50% - 150% of the value ((2d6 + 3) x 10). You could work in something like the Disable Device skill, where if you fail by 5 or more, something bad happens. In this case, you could just give them a bad estimate, and let them guess what it means. Of course, if you do this, you'll have to roll the check in secret, so they don't know if their guess is accurate or not. About the only defense against this is to have multiple PCs check the item and see where any discrepencies are.
antiduke 10-08-07, 02:19 PM	You might be half remebering an older version, where a successful check got you close, and a failed check put you at 50% - 150% of the value ((2d6 + 3) x 10). I don't understand.. this is an old version? That is exactly what the srd states about appraise: "You can appraise common or well-known objects with a DC 12 Appraise check. Failure means that you estimate the value at 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%,) of its actual value." Edit: Ah I think I see what you are saying.. the old version got you CLOSE with a successful check. But in the current rules a successful check just lets you know the value outright.
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 02:44 PM	I don't understand.. this is an old version? That is exactly what the srd states about appraise: To be honest, I haven't read up on the rules for a while, and I was assuming the part you quoted was the entire entrty. Thus, I (incorrectly) assumed that was an old 3.0 ruling. So, what excactly is confusing you about the Skill? Edit: Okay, I read the SRD on the skill. I guess it looks like if you deem the object "rare or valuable", then they just don't get an estimate on a failed check. The only thing I can see about "over appraising" is if you happen to roll high on a failed check for a common item.
antiduke 10-08-07, 03:00 PM	Ok so I understand how the actual skill works now. My current problem though is how do you determine what an item's appraise DC is? Are all common magic items DC 15? If so, this seems like a rather meh skill since there is no way to underestimate the value of very expensive items. Is the DC of these checks up to the DM? For instance, wands, scrolls, potions, "common" wondrous items.. can these have appraise dcs of 12?
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 03:55 PM	Ok so I understand how the actual skill works now. My current problem though is how do you determine what an item's appraise DC is? Are all common magic items DC 15? If so, this seems like a rather meh skill since there is no way to underestimate the value of very expensive items. Is the DC of these checks up to the DM? For instance, wands, scrolls, potions, "common" wondrous items.. can these have appraise dcs of 12? I guess I (this is personal opinion, not RAW supported fact) would consider typical mundane items to be "common", and unique or culture-specific objects of art to be rare or exotic. I tend to picture exotic to be something foreign compared to the appraiser. As for magial items, I don't think you could appraise anything more than the item itself (not its enchantment) with Appraise. Thus, if you went to appraise a +1 Flaming Longsword before idendifying it, you'd only be able to appraise it as a masterwork longsword. Detect Magic could tell you that it's magical (thus you know it's worth more), and Identify or Analyze Dwemor could tell you what the item is. As for figuring out the market price for a particular item, that might fall more under the realm of Spellcraft of Knowledge(Arcana). I guess I've never put much thought into that, as the players tend to have a good idea of basic market prices anyway.
j3st3r 10-08-07, 05:19 PM	101 Mundane Treasures and Another 101 Mundane Treasures from Ronin Arts (http://www.roninarts.com/store/default.php?cPath=2_10_21) has unique non-magical treasures that all have their own appraising DC. The DC won't just reveal the price, but also details, perhaps even some background of the item. Good PDF's with lots of interesting items with rich details, especially valuable for campaigns with low magic.
Killydd 10-08-07, 05:57 PM	I believe that at least the core version of appraise just lets you value various art and gems. If you don't have a bargaining system in place, people in town will pay what its worth and the appraise skill is only useful for determining if something is just not worth enough to bother hauling back(say a very bulky tapestry in bad condition). If you do apply some sort of bargaining, a failed appraise check might result in the PC's not being able to sell an item because they ask too much for it, or selling it for far too little. Also, consider varying DC's for the same item. a DC 12 might reveal that a pendant would be worth 500gp on the open market, but a dc 20 check would reveal that it was made in ancient Netheril and could command up to 1500 from an interested buyer.
war_thog 10-09-07, 09:31 AM	Once you know what a magic item does you could use appraise to determine its value. I'd probably differentiate the DC for magic items based on whether they are minor, medium or major items. Leave it at that, nice and easy. Its a skill thats there for you to customise. Basically if you feel your PC's rolled well enough, let em know, if they did really well, reward them, if they failed, crucify them! They find a gem worth 2k. Fail appraise and try to sell it for 1k :P Use your appraise check to set the base price of what they will ask for it. Then use "bartering" diplomacy usually to alter this. Obviously if they ask too high the merchant will demand less, but then the PC could end up not selling his stuff as he feels hes being ripped off :P Ah the possibilities are limitless!
antiduke 10-09-07, 11:35 AM	Ya that is pretty much what I have decided on.. when they fail a check they either value the item as too much or not enough. The problem is that it seems like alot of time and rolls for very little in results. I went through all of my treasure in my campaign and made appraise checks for the party as well as my shopkeeper. Then I compared the prices they would get from doing that to someone who had max ranks in appraise and it ended up being a measly 3k gold difference. The trouble with appraise is it seems like it is only truly valuable for those very expensive items and the low chance that they will appraise it at half value. But chances are just as good that they will appraise it for 150% value and will either hold on to it a little longer or sell it for its actual price.. hell they could even bluff someone into buying it for MORE than its worth. So I've decided just to not bother with the skill with the exception of them trying to determine if an item is valuable enough for them to take home.