Post/Author/DateTime	Post
E_Vernon 04-02-07, 11:15 PM	How does Hide work versus an opponent with darkvision? I have a PC moving through an underground tunnel. It is populated my gnomes with darkvision. The PC is a kobold. The PC rolls a 24 for her hide check. What happens?
FrozenSoul80 04-02-07, 11:28 PM	I'd say it works the same as hiding in a fully lit area. There's still be stalagtites and rocks to hide behind, so it's not like you'd be out in the open. Your hide check would be opposed by a spot check. There might be some -2 modifiers as per your DM.
Shadowhowler 04-02-07, 11:38 PM	Yeah, basicly what he said. :) Darkvision allows you to see as well as a fully lite area for 60', so if the character is relying solely on the Darkness for cover, anything that has Darkvision and gets within 60 feet sees the charcater as well as a normal person would in broad daylight. However... unlike broad daylight, you can use darkvision against the enemey, especialy if you have it yourself so you know how it works... If you flee... escape the limits of their darkvision (IE you cant see them, so they cant see you) you could then hide using objects, cover, whatever might actually be able to conceal you... becuase outside the range of their darkvision, you have concealment with which to hide... where in braod daylight you would not.
Dheran 04-03-07, 10:50 AM	How does Hide work versus an opponent with darkvision? Darkvision just makes areas of "shadowy illumination" no good for you to Hide in. You're left with all the other hiding places -- places with actual cover or visual screening that doesn't rely on shadows.
E_Vernon 04-04-07, 10:47 PM	Thank you all :).
tarkin 04-05-07, 10:42 AM	Please note, if all you have is a shadowy illumination, then you can not hide. Hide requries two things: 1. a hiding spot. 2. distraction/oncealement when make the attempt to hide. If you are standing in an empty room, then you can NOT hide, even if it is entirely dark. People might not see you, but that is because it is dark, not because you have hidden.
Sigma34561 04-05-07, 10:54 AM	i disagree, you can only hide in an empty room if the room is dark. shadowy illumination provides concealment, which is all you need to hide. You could hide from a human in a poorly lit room, but if a dwarf walked in... they would see some loser with his back to the wall trying not to move. the kobold could hide in natural caves and such using terrain to hide behind, but not plain corridors with no cover.
Vegepygmy 04-05-07, 12:06 PM	Please note, if all you have is a shadowy illumination, then you can not hide.Hide skill description: Use this skill to sink back into the shadows and proceed unseen... As Sigma has said, you need cover or concealment to Hide. Areas of shadowy illumination provide concealment (relative to most observers, dwarves excluded), so you can Hide in them. Hide requries two things: 1. a hiding spot. 2. distraction/oncealement when make the attempt to hide.Yes, but your "hiding spot" in this case is "in the area of shadowy illumination." If you are standing in an empty room, then you can NOT hide, even if it is entirely dark. People might not see you, but that is because it is dark, not because you have hidden.Hide skill description: Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway. "Obviates the need for a Hide check" is not the same as "you cannot Hide." In fact, it makes it pretty clear that you not only can Hide, but that you do it pretty damn well (+40 on your check if you're not moving, +20 if you are).
Bantam 04-05-07, 12:43 PM	I think when Tarkin said when all you have is shadowy illumination or regular darkness, you can't hide from someone with darkvision as in the context of this entire thread as stated by the original poster.
Vegepygmy 04-05-07, 01:01 PM	That's possible, Bantam, but it doesn't seem consistent with him writing: If you are standing in an empty room, then you can NOT hide, even if it is entirely dark. People might not see you, but that is because it is dark, not because you have hidden.
Sigma34561 04-05-07, 04:16 PM	interestingly, do you think that someone with darkvision would be at a disadvantage when it comes to hiding in an area of shadowy illumination? the wouldnt know where the shadows are to hide in?
Kursk 04-05-07, 04:19 PM	interestingly, do you think that someone with darkvision would be at a disadvantage when it comes to hiding in an area of shadowy illumination? the wouldnt know where the shadows are to hide in? You can NOT use your Darkvision if you want so as to see it normally.
Sigma34561 04-05-07, 04:29 PM	can you? is darkvision something you can turn off?
Captain_Kobold 04-05-07, 04:35 PM	I think Darkvision is something that operates simultaneously with normal vision. You don't need to switch between a darkvision and normal vision mode: you percieve with both at the same time.
Bantam 04-05-07, 04:50 PM	That's possible, Bantam, but it doesn't seem consistent with him writing: Hmm good point.
wizarddog 04-06-07, 01:21 AM	I think Darkvision is something that operates simultaneously with normal vision. You don't need to switch between a darkvision and normal vision mode: you percieve with both at the same time. I thought I read somewhere-I could be tripping-that you don't see color with darkvision. In that case you would know when you are looking at a darken area and thus know where darkness and shadows would be located.:confused:
Adolfo_Mondschein 04-06-07, 01:45 AM	Dark vision is indeed black and white only. And you know that you are in the dark or not (unless your blind or something). I believe the DMG goes into it. No, you can't turn darkvision off either. It works simultaneously with your normal and lowlight vision.
wizarddog 04-06-07, 01:54 AM	Dark vision is indeed black and white only. And you know that you are in the dark or not (unless your blind or something). I believe the DMG goes into it. No, you can't turn darkvision off either. It works simultaneously with your normal and lowlight vision. In which case it would be like the iris of your eye opening up further and allowing additional sensory information in.
Steevo 04-06-07, 03:24 AM	can you? is darkvision something you can turn off? No, you can't turn darkvision off, however, most races that have darkvision also have normal (visible light) vision. So if you're standing in a room with a light source, you can differentiate shadowy areas from lit areas by color gradation, if nothing else. It would be an interesting effect, but basically anything that's well lit would appear in colour, anything that's pitch shadow you could still see into in black and white (within 60 feet) and anything that's shadowy illumination would be somewhere in between. Presumably, any race that has darkvision would be accustomed to seeing the world this way, and so they would easily be able to discern where shadows were falling, even if they don't see it the same way a human would.
Sigma34561 04-06-07, 12:47 PM	I agree! excellent discussion.
Rulebook 04-06-07, 04:26 PM	In which case it would be like the iris of your eye opening up further and allowing additional sensory information in. Reply With Quote not at all. its an entirely different form of vision that picks up images in complete darkness. kind of like how modern night-vision goggles work, but with a brain to control the light levels (so you dont get blinded) it might even extend into higher than ultraviolet, or lower than infrared light. just because you as a human arent accustomed to seeing more than visible light, it dosent mean other things have that same limitation.
wizarddog 04-06-07, 11:47 PM	not at all. its an entirely different form of vision that picks up images in complete darkness. kind of like how modern night-vision goggles work, but with a brain to control the light levels (so you dont get blinded) it might even extend into higher than ultraviolet, or lower than infrared light. just because you as a human arent accustomed to seeing more than visible light, it dosent mean other things have that same limitation. Night-vision google are Thermal based-i.e. infravison which is what was what was used in AD&D 1st and 2nd. Darkvision is (broader in definition than infrared and Ultravison were) an increase in intensity range to see very small quanities of light. This is why you can't use Darkvison in a Darkness spell because it is the complete abscene of all light (including UV/IR and other lightwaves) From Wkiki: "Some animals have evolved better night vision through the use of a larger optical aperture, improved retina composition that can detect weaker light over a larger spectral range, more photoefficient optics in the eye, and improved neurological filtering which is more tolerant of noise." So you are correct in the brain functioning as a filter and picking up the other radiation/lightwaves etc but biologically the aperture of the eye is still being used-which is what my analogy was going for. If an intelligent being had the ability of Darkvioon of course they would be able to interpet the information. More Wiki: "Some animals, such as cats, dogs, and deer have a structure called tapetum lucidum in the back of the eye that reflects light back towards the retina, increasing the amount of light it captures. In humans, only 10% of the light that enters the eye falls on photosensitive parts of the retina." Whether you rule that is the case with Dwarves is up to the DM. :)
runestar 04-06-07, 11:56 PM	My interpretation is that darkvision is the ability to see in the dark as though it was bright. Thus, you would only be able to spot something with darkvision if you could normally see it in the presence of light. Oddly enough, this would imply that I can see my own reflection in a mirror in complete darkness. Ah what the heck...:embarrass
Nom 04-07-07, 12:48 AM	Well, strictly speaking Tarkin could be considered correct: "Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway" (PH pg 76). Hide checks are to remain unseen in circumstances where you could normally be seen. In order to attempt to Hide, you need some form of obscurement (ie cover, concealment, or a camoflague ability). Total darkness (but no other cover or concealment effect) and darkvision is an interesting case. Against opponents without darkvision you don't need to Hide; you're automatically unseen. Against opponents with darkvision you don't need to Hide; you're automatically seen. Invisibility is another special case, and is explicitly discussed as such on PH pg 76. Unlike normal total concealment, an invisible creature can be visually located, though with significant penalties to the observer's Spot checks.
Steevo 04-07-07, 10:57 AM	Well, strictly speaking Tarkin could be considered correct: "Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway" (PH pg 76). Tarkin is correct is the sense that you can't Hide if you're already hidden (that is to say, it's a moot point.) Sort of like how you can't make a Move Silently check if you're holding perfectly still, or make a Decipher Script script check to read a perfectly legible piece of text written in your native language (assuming you aren't a Barbarian.) You can't do something that's already done, basically.
Rulebook 04-07-07, 07:43 PM	i was referring to image inhancement night vision goggles (which is what you see when they do the green thing). they take a near imperceptible amount of light, and borrow some from the uv and ir range, and enhance what you see until its bight and clear. the grayscale of darkvision could easily be the greenscale of nightvision.
Deathsrhand 04-08-07, 08:29 AM	the true question is in the underdark where there is no light, meaning no shadows cast what darkness are you hiding in?
Vloorshad 04-08-07, 11:43 AM	the true question is in the underdark where there is no light, meaning no shadows cast what darkness are you hiding in? What is shade other than something created when a solid object keeps sunlight from landing on that spot? Is not the Underdark permanently cast in a pitch black shadow?
kave99 04-08-07, 12:56 PM	the hole point to the change from infra-red vision in ad&d to darkvision in 3.5 etc was to take the science out of the game. darkvision works just like normal vision except that it is black and White only. so if you could hide in a room with light then you can hide from some one with darkvision in the dark.