Hide in Plain Sight [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hide in Plain Sight [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Petrankov
08-29-07, 01:23 PM This ability allows a character that wields it to use the Hide skill even when being observed.

Is using the hide skill a standard action or a move equivalent action?

I would think it would be a move equivalent action but I am interested to hear some thoughts on the matter before I apply its use in my next gaming session.
bobothechimp
08-29-07, 01:29 PM PHB has these neat little descriptions of rules, including skills. You should check it out sometime.
Tsuul
08-29-07, 01:33 PM Hiding is usually done as part of another action. Example:
If used with spring attack, a character can Move(hiding at the same time), attack, move(hiding at the same time).

In this case if the character wanted to be considered as hidden for the attack, he would take a -20 penalty to the hide check during the first movement (not during the attack).
-FAQ
Tsuul
08-29-07, 01:36 PM PHB has these neat little descriptions of rules, including skills. You should check it out sometime.Unhelpful, he would just be back here asking for more clarity on the horrid Hide rules.
Petrankov
08-29-07, 01:40 PM Thanks for the flame bobo. It was constructive for the thread.

The books are guidelines not gospel.

I am curious how other DM's have altered rules in relation to the rules printed.

If you want to give your idea I would love to hear it other wise move on in silence. This is the problem with the WOTC boards, chumps (or is it chimps) like you, I never see this kind of crap on other boards.
Dheran
08-29-07, 10:46 PM The books are guidelines not gospel.

I am curious how other DM's have altered rules in relation to the rules printed. I don't alter the rules in the slightest for Hide. These rules are, however, organized poorly. For example, many people skip this line: It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. which clearly shows that you can Hide while doing those things. Because the actions which impose a penalty to your check aren't included in the "Action" summary, most people think you need to move to make the skill check.Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement But since the original issue relates to Hide in Plain Sight, let's clarify something about that.This ability allows a character that wields it to use the Hide skill even when being observed. There are (at least) three versions of Hide in Plain Sight:
Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS: Supernatural; no cover/concealment needed if near a shadow
Ranger HiPS: Extraordinary; only works in natural terrain; cover/concealment needed but that's obviated by Camouflage class ability
Dark Creature Template HiPS: Extraordinary; won't work in bright light; cover/concealment still required
So it's one name, and each ability with this name allows you to make a Hide check while being observed. But you really should think of HiPS as "these abilities" rather than "this ability".
Petrankov
08-30-07, 10:25 AM I am granting this ability to an epic level creature, a Gloom, as an epic feat. While not an epic feat per se, it is certainly not something I think that an epic level creature could not learn how to do.

I suppose the closest thing to a Gloom's abilities would be the Dark Creature Template. Of course if cover/concealment is still required to use this ability, it begs the question, how is that hiding in plain sight?

When I think of Hiding in Plain Sight I think of keeping still as to not be seen or being so good at stealth that you can move into a creatures "blind spot" in the periphery of their vision. I would think though that if you are blending into the background or shadows the idea is that you are NOT moving to do it.

These creatures have a +46 to hide and a +66 to move silently so they are pretty damn stealthy. The terrain would be an undeground passageway which would be poorly lit if not completely dark.
Tsuul
08-30-07, 12:20 PM Which version of the ability are you granting?

As for still needing cover/concealment, normally someone can only hide in concealment when not observed. And most people look at cover the same way.
That just means that without HiPS these creatures can not even attempt to even hide while someone see them. (Well, they can think they are hidden)

I would suggest not allowing hide checks during attack actions as it will open the door to iterative hidden attacks. While certainly a valid interpretation of the rules, the PHB is silent on the issue of how exactly you make the hide check to remain hidden while you attack. The FAQ places that roll in the previous movement.
Petrankov
08-30-07, 03:40 PM The version I will grant is the Dark Creature Template version.

This is how I see it playing out:

Because they have the Hide in Plain Sight ability, they will be able to attack a character in the gloom (the concealment will be darkness and the mass of bodies pressed together in the tunnels) of the undertunnels and make a hide check to hide right in front of the characters in the tunnels. This will be the equivalent of their move action for the round. Seemingly melting away into the shadows.

Of course I will give them a minus 20 on the hide check and give the characters spot checks to catch them trying this technique.

Sound too overpowered or unfair?

I think this is a pretty nasty trick. My players are all 27 and 28th level so they need real challenges in combat or they just flatten enemies.
tyrecian
08-30-07, 03:43 PM from the SRD:

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

I pretty much rule that it is done freely (except sniping) but the PC must state it. I would think that the Gloom, using HiPS would do it freely, just as hide is used. Give it invis and stealthy feat and take its hide up to 88 (68 moving), then it can move to attack hidden with a Hide of 48.

At epic levels this is not that tough. If he has HiPS and is in the dark, bear in mind that he is hidden unless the PCs can see him anyways, and wont need to restrict his movement (unless he can't see in the dark as well) and his move silently will be vastly more significant.

Give the bastard a way to cast silence on himself or a pebble, and he will absolutely harry the party for half the dungeon crawl :D
Petrankov
08-30-07, 04:39 PM Oh these things are wicked. They have a Permanent Silence effect that emanates from them at will. Overwhelming and Devastating Critical with daggers that act as Dread weapons on humans while wielded by them. I believe 13d6 damage on their Sneak Attack. Plus a host of other abilities. They are no fun at all.

It should be a pretty mean battle. The main opponent is a 27th level Githyanki wizard who is on the run from the Lich Queen. The Glooms (2) are his retainers. I also plan on having him gate in an Infernal.

I have never really had enemies try to hide on them in battle before so I am interested to see how they react to it.
ToastedAmphibian
08-30-07, 05:45 PM Hey, quick hypothetical question. If the gloom is hiding right in front of your player, what happens if your player trys to move forward?
Dheran
08-30-07, 05:59 PM Hey, quick hypothetical question. If the gloom is hiding right in front of your player, what happens if your player trys to move forward? Assuming the player character is medium size, it's a legal move. They'll provoke an AoO for leaving a threatened square and will then squeeze into the gloom's square:Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. It's lucky for the PCs that the AoO happens before the squeezing penalties kick in.
tyrecian
08-30-07, 06:58 PM yes, true, but the player is unaware, so the gloom gets his sneak attack damage, at 13d6, teehee :D
Nom
08-30-07, 07:03 PM Actually, the quoted rule ("A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square) applies when a Large creature reduces its space to squeeze past a medium. The creature never shares a square with the opponent; rather, it temporarily occupies only the other square.
Dheran
08-30-07, 08:37 PM Actually, the quoted rule ("A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square) applies when a Large creature reduces its space to squeeze past a medium. The creature never shares a square with the opponent; rather, it temporarily occupies only the other square. You really don't understand the squeezing rules, Nom. Let me try to clarify things. Here's the entire section:Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. There's no connection to a large character squeezing and the "squeezing past an opponent" line. And "it temporarily occupies only the other square" doesn't make sense. The large creature occupies the entirety of two squares when squeezing into a space that's only 5' wide, such as when walls are only 5' apart. A space that's 10' wide and includes a medium character is still 10' wide.

A creature can share a space with an enemy character while squeezing, or there would be no reason to state that "it can’t end its movement in an occupied square". Your idea of the large creature temporarily occupying only the spaces adjacent to the enemy doesn't make sense when coupled with this line. If the large creature is really temporarily only in the adjacent squares then it's never occupying the same square as the enemy.

The squeezing rules for large creatures specify narrow spaces, not narrow unoccupied spaces. If the space is wide enough for you but occupied by a medium enemy then you'll occupy the same square as that enemy while squeezing past them. Similarly if you're both medium size you can squeeze past them in the same square, but can't legally end your turn there. This isn't advisable because of AoOs, but it's a legal move.
bigbythewise
08-30-07, 08:59 PM Is using the hide skill a standard action or a move equivalent action?.

Using Hide in Plain Sight is a standard action. It's a Supernatural ability.
Dheran
08-30-07, 09:43 PM Using Hide in Plain Sight is a standard action. It's a Supernatural ability. Not correct, on two counts.
Hide in Plain Sight may be either Extraordinary or Supernatural; it's really multiple abilities with the same name.
The Supernatural form of HiPS just permits you to Hide under different circumstances, and requires no action in itself.Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. The rules for the Hide skill apply instead, as noted in the HiPS description.
bigbythewise
08-30-07, 10:08 PM It seems you're right dude. I though it apllies for HIPS (Ex) only.
ToastedAmphibian
08-30-07, 10:37 PM Assuming the player character is medium size, it's a legal move. They'll provoke an AoO for leaving a threatened square and will then squeeze into the gloom's square: It's lucky for the PCs that the AoO happens before the squeezing penalties kick in.

What if the gloom isn't willing to let teh pc pass through its square?
Friend
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.

Opponent
You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)

You cant treat it as an overrun, because that requiers an action on the PCs part. Do you just tell them they cant move there character there, but not tell them why. Tellthem they seem to have run into somethign and then sneak attack them withought actualy letting them move. Force them to make a tumble check to avoide tripping over the angry hiding thing? Assuming a gloom isnt 3 size catagoreys larger than a humanoid, you cant just let them enter an opponents square can you? IF that logic works, a fighter can just shut his eyes and walk through three ranks of barbarians to get to the wizard (At half speed for being "blind"). Certaintly that isnt right.
Nom
08-30-07, 10:47 PM Here's the entire section:Actually, let's put in the entire section, particularly including the commentary that your quote is missing (in italics)Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. (This is particularly true for creatures whose space fills more than one square, such as a giant.) You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. For instance, an ogre (whose space is 10 feet, or 2 squares, wide) can squeeze through or into a space at least 5 feet (or 1 square) wide. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC. ...As you can see, the squeezing rules are certainly not written with large creatures in mind, the diagram on pg 149 does not specifically illustrate an ogre squeezing past Tordek, and "there's no connection to a large character squeezing and the "squeezing past an opponent" line.". (In case my sarcasm isn't obvious, none of the negatives belong in that last sentence.)
And "it temporarily occupies only the other square" doesn't make sense. The large creature occupies the entirety of two squares when squeezing into a space that's only 5' wide, such as when walls are only 5' apart. A space that's 10' wide and includes a medium character is still 10' wide.Again, as explicitly illustrated on PH pg 149. Oh, wait, the illustration does show that the ogre never occupies Tordek's square, but rather does spend 3 squares worth of movement squeezed into a 10x5 column!
A creature can share a space with an enemy character while squeezing,PH pg 147: "You can't move through a space occupied by an opponent". The squeezing rules do not in any way suggest that they make an exception to this. Rather, they explain that a large creature may compact its space to move around an otherwise impassible square, including one occupied by an opponent.
... or there would be no reason to state that "it can’t end its movement in an occupied square".OK, so perhaps they should have said "while squeezing past an opponent", but if you read the commentary text on the diagram on PH pg 149 it becomes clearer. The ogre has 4 options:

(1) squeeze into a narrow corridor (and remain squeezing).

(2) move through a gnoll ally; it must go completely through because it "cannot end movement in an occupied square"

(3) move 1 square toward Tordek

(4) move 6 squares, "squeezing past Tordek to the open corridor beyond".

What it apparently may not do is squeeze partially past Tordek and then end its movement. Though from a rules design perspective I'm not quite sure why this is unacceptable with an opponent but acceptable with solid walls. Maybe because the minis don't fit right?
Dheran
08-31-07, 12:07 AM As you can see, the squeezing rules are certainly not written with large creatures in mind, the diagram on pg 149 does not specifically illustrate an ogre squeezing past Tordek, and "there's no connection to a large character squeezing and the "squeezing past an opponent" line.". (In case my sarcasm isn't obvious, none of the negatives belong in that last sentence.)
Again, as explicitly illustrated on PH pg 149. Oh, wait, the illustration does show that the ogre never occupies Tordek's square, but rather does spend 3 squares worth of movement squeezed into a 10x5 column! Perhaps we have a different version of the PH, because my page 149 shows the ogre's squeezed outline overlapping into Tordek's square. It's not just squeezed into the squares beside him; it's also occupying about half of Tordek's space. This clearly shows that squeezing does override the normal rule, by imposing penalties for the movement.

You shouldn't take the lack of an example of a medium creature squeezing to indicate that they don't follow the same rules.
Petrankov
09-04-07, 04:13 PM Thread was an exercise in futility. I had a character that had a +30 to Spot. So with the -20 to the hide check to attack and move,the character spotted him and grappled him so other players could attack it.

They actually managed to beat 2 Glooms, an Infernal and a 27th level Githyanki wizard without anyone dying. (Of course they were hurting :P ).

Thanks for the help.
Tsuul
09-04-07, 07:47 PM +30 to spot? That's something you should have known about.

Ah well, better luck next time.
Petrankov
09-05-07, 11:11 AM Probably should have known, but with 4-6 players depending on the week, working two jobs, going to school, planning a wedding and running another game on top of this one, tis not easy to keep track of the players stats too. :(

Ah well, chalk one up for the PC's.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Petrankov 08-29-07, 01:23 PM	This ability allows a character that wields it to use the Hide skill even when being observed. Is using the hide skill a standard action or a move equivalent action? I would think it would be a move equivalent action but I am interested to hear some thoughts on the matter before I apply its use in my next gaming session.
bobothechimp 08-29-07, 01:29 PM	PHB has these neat little descriptions of rules, including skills. You should check it out sometime.
Tsuul 08-29-07, 01:33 PM	Hiding is usually done as part of another action. Example: If used with spring attack, a character can Move(hiding at the same time), attack, move(hiding at the same time). In this case if the character wanted to be considered as hidden for the attack, he would take a -20 penalty to the hide check during the first movement (not during the attack). -FAQ
Tsuul 08-29-07, 01:36 PM	PHB has these neat little descriptions of rules, including skills. You should check it out sometime.Unhelpful, he would just be back here asking for more clarity on the horrid Hide rules.
Petrankov 08-29-07, 01:40 PM	Thanks for the flame bobo. It was constructive for the thread. The books are guidelines not gospel. I am curious how other DM's have altered rules in relation to the rules printed. If you want to give your idea I would love to hear it other wise move on in silence. This is the problem with the WOTC boards, chumps (or is it chimps) like you, I never see this kind of crap on other boards.
Dheran 08-29-07, 10:46 PM	The books are guidelines not gospel. I am curious how other DM's have altered rules in relation to the rules printed. I don't alter the rules in the slightest for Hide. These rules are, however, organized poorly. For example, many people skip this line: It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. which clearly shows that you can Hide while doing those things. Because the actions which impose a penalty to your check aren't included in the "Action" summary, most people think you need to move to make the skill check.Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement But since the original issue relates to Hide in Plain Sight, let's clarify something about that.This ability allows a character that wields it to use the Hide skill even when being observed. There are (at least) three versions of Hide in Plain Sight: Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS: Supernatural; no cover/concealment needed if near a shadow Ranger HiPS: Extraordinary; only works in natural terrain; cover/concealment needed but that's obviated by Camouflage class ability Dark Creature Template HiPS: Extraordinary; won't work in bright light; cover/concealment still required So it's one name, and each ability with this name allows you to make a Hide check while being observed. But you really should think of HiPS as "these abilities" rather than "this ability".
Petrankov 08-30-07, 10:25 AM	I am granting this ability to an epic level creature, a Gloom, as an epic feat. While not an epic feat per se, it is certainly not something I think that an epic level creature could not learn how to do. I suppose the closest thing to a Gloom's abilities would be the Dark Creature Template. Of course if cover/concealment is still required to use this ability, it begs the question, how is that hiding in plain sight? When I think of Hiding in Plain Sight I think of keeping still as to not be seen or being so good at stealth that you can move into a creatures "blind spot" in the periphery of their vision. I would think though that if you are blending into the background or shadows the idea is that you are NOT moving to do it. These creatures have a +46 to hide and a +66 to move silently so they are pretty damn stealthy. The terrain would be an undeground passageway which would be poorly lit if not completely dark.
Tsuul 08-30-07, 12:20 PM	Which version of the ability are you granting? As for still needing cover/concealment, normally someone can only hide in concealment when not observed. And most people look at cover the same way. That just means that without HiPS these creatures can not even attempt to even hide while someone see them. (Well, they can think they are hidden) I would suggest not allowing hide checks during attack actions as it will open the door to iterative hidden attacks. While certainly a valid interpretation of the rules, the PHB is silent on the issue of how exactly you make the hide check to remain hidden while you attack. The FAQ places that roll in the previous movement.
Petrankov 08-30-07, 03:40 PM	The version I will grant is the Dark Creature Template version. This is how I see it playing out: Because they have the Hide in Plain Sight ability, they will be able to attack a character in the gloom (the concealment will be darkness and the mass of bodies pressed together in the tunnels) of the undertunnels and make a hide check to hide right in front of the characters in the tunnels. This will be the equivalent of their move action for the round. Seemingly melting away into the shadows. Of course I will give them a minus 20 on the hide check and give the characters spot checks to catch them trying this technique. Sound too overpowered or unfair? I think this is a pretty nasty trick. My players are all 27 and 28th level so they need real challenges in combat or they just flatten enemies.
tyrecian 08-30-07, 03:43 PM	from the SRD: Action Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action. I pretty much rule that it is done freely (except sniping) but the PC must state it. I would think that the Gloom, using HiPS would do it freely, just as hide is used. Give it invis and stealthy feat and take its hide up to 88 (68 moving), then it can move to attack hidden with a Hide of 48. At epic levels this is not that tough. If he has HiPS and is in the dark, bear in mind that he is hidden unless the PCs can see him anyways, and wont need to restrict his movement (unless he can't see in the dark as well) and his move silently will be vastly more significant. Give the bastard a way to cast silence on himself or a pebble, and he will absolutely harry the party for half the dungeon crawl :D
Petrankov 08-30-07, 04:39 PM	Oh these things are wicked. They have a Permanent Silence effect that emanates from them at will. Overwhelming and Devastating Critical with daggers that act as Dread weapons on humans while wielded by them. I believe 13d6 damage on their Sneak Attack. Plus a host of other abilities. They are no fun at all. It should be a pretty mean battle. The main opponent is a 27th level Githyanki wizard who is on the run from the Lich Queen. The Glooms (2) are his retainers. I also plan on having him gate in an Infernal. I have never really had enemies try to hide on them in battle before so I am interested to see how they react to it.
ToastedAmphibian 08-30-07, 05:45 PM	Hey, quick hypothetical question. If the gloom is hiding right in front of your player, what happens if your player trys to move forward?
Dheran 08-30-07, 05:59 PM	Hey, quick hypothetical question. If the gloom is hiding right in front of your player, what happens if your player trys to move forward? Assuming the player character is medium size, it's a legal move. They'll provoke an AoO for leaving a threatened square and will then squeeze into the gloom's square:Squeezing In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC. A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. It's lucky for the PCs that the AoO happens before the squeezing penalties kick in.
tyrecian 08-30-07, 06:58 PM	yes, true, but the player is unaware, so the gloom gets his sneak attack damage, at 13d6, teehee :D
Nom 08-30-07, 07:03 PM	Actually, the quoted rule ("A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square) applies when a Large creature reduces its space to squeeze past a medium. The creature never shares a square with the opponent; rather, it temporarily occupies only the other square.
Dheran 08-30-07, 08:37 PM	Actually, the quoted rule ("A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square) applies when a Large creature reduces its space to squeeze past a medium. The creature never shares a square with the opponent; rather, it temporarily occupies only the other square. You really don't understand the squeezing rules, Nom. Let me try to clarify things. Here's the entire section:Squeezing In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC. When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. There's no connection to a large character squeezing and the "squeezing past an opponent" line. And "it temporarily occupies only the other square" doesn't make sense. The large creature occupies the entirety of two squares when squeezing into a space that's only 5' wide, such as when walls are only 5' apart. A space that's 10' wide and includes a medium character is still 10' wide. A creature can share a space with an enemy character while squeezing, or there would be no reason to state that "it can’t end its movement in an occupied square". Your idea of the large creature temporarily occupying only the spaces adjacent to the enemy doesn't make sense when coupled with this line. If the large creature is really temporarily only in the adjacent squares then it's never occupying the same square as the enemy. The squeezing rules for large creatures specify narrow spaces, not narrow unoccupied spaces. If the space is wide enough for you but occupied by a medium enemy then you'll occupy the same square as that enemy while squeezing past them. Similarly if you're both medium size you can squeeze past them in the same square, but can't legally end your turn there. This isn't advisable because of AoOs, but it's a legal move.
bigbythewise 08-30-07, 08:59 PM	Is using the hide skill a standard action or a move equivalent action?. Using Hide in Plain Sight is a standard action. It's a Supernatural ability.
Dheran 08-30-07, 09:43 PM	Using Hide in Plain Sight is a standard action. It's a Supernatural ability. Not correct, on two counts. Hide in Plain Sight may be either Extraordinary or Supernatural; it's really multiple abilities with the same name. The Supernatural form of HiPS just permits you to Hide under different circumstances, and requires no action in itself.Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.Hide in Plain Sight (Su) A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. The rules for the Hide skill apply instead, as noted in the HiPS description.
bigbythewise 08-30-07, 10:08 PM	It seems you're right dude. I though it apllies for HIPS (Ex) only.
ToastedAmphibian 08-30-07, 10:37 PM	Assuming the player character is medium size, it's a legal move. They'll provoke an AoO for leaving a threatened square and will then squeeze into the gloom's square: It's lucky for the PCs that the AoO happens before the squeezing penalties kick in. What if the gloom isn't willing to let teh pc pass through its square? Friend You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover. Opponent You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.) You cant treat it as an overrun, because that requiers an action on the PCs part. Do you just tell them they cant move there character there, but not tell them why. Tellthem they seem to have run into somethign and then sneak attack them withought actualy letting them move. Force them to make a tumble check to avoide tripping over the angry hiding thing? Assuming a gloom isnt 3 size catagoreys larger than a humanoid, you cant just let them enter an opponents square can you? IF that logic works, a fighter can just shut his eyes and walk through three ranks of barbarians to get to the wizard (At half speed for being "blind"). Certaintly that isnt right.
Nom 08-30-07, 10:47 PM	Here's the entire section:Actually, let's put in the entire section, particularly including the commentary that your quote is missing (in italics)Squeezing In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. (This is particularly true for creatures whose space fills more than one square, such as a giant.) You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. For instance, an ogre (whose space is 10 feet, or 2 squares, wide) can squeeze through or into a space at least 5 feet (or 1 square) wide. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC. ...As you can see, the squeezing rules are certainly not written with large creatures in mind, the diagram on pg 149 does not specifically illustrate an ogre squeezing past Tordek, and "there's no connection to a large character squeezing and the "squeezing past an opponent" line.". (In case my sarcasm isn't obvious, none of the negatives belong in that last sentence.) And "it temporarily occupies only the other square" doesn't make sense. The large creature occupies the entirety of two squares when squeezing into a space that's only 5' wide, such as when walls are only 5' apart. A space that's 10' wide and includes a medium character is still 10' wide.Again, as explicitly illustrated on PH pg 149. Oh, wait, the illustration does show that the ogre never occupies Tordek's square, but rather does spend 3 squares worth of movement squeezed into a 10x5 column! A creature can share a space with an enemy character while squeezing,PH pg 147: "You can't move through a space occupied by an opponent". The squeezing rules do not in any way suggest that they make an exception to this. Rather, they explain that a large creature may compact its space to move around an otherwise impassible square, including one occupied by an opponent. ... or there would be no reason to state that "it can’t end its movement in an occupied square".OK, so perhaps they should have said "while squeezing past an opponent", but if you read the commentary text on the diagram on PH pg 149 it becomes clearer. The ogre has 4 options: (1) squeeze into a narrow corridor (and remain squeezing). (2) move through a gnoll ally; it must go completely through because it "cannot end movement in an occupied square" (3) move 1 square toward Tordek (4) move 6 squares, "squeezing past Tordek to the open corridor beyond". What it apparently may not do is squeeze partially past Tordek and then end its movement. Though from a rules design perspective I'm not quite sure why this is unacceptable with an opponent but acceptable with solid walls. Maybe because the minis don't fit right?
Dheran 08-31-07, 12:07 AM	As you can see, the squeezing rules are certainly not written with large creatures in mind, the diagram on pg 149 does not specifically illustrate an ogre squeezing past Tordek, and "there's no connection to a large character squeezing and the "squeezing past an opponent" line.". (In case my sarcasm isn't obvious, none of the negatives belong in that last sentence.) Again, as explicitly illustrated on PH pg 149. Oh, wait, the illustration does show that the ogre never occupies Tordek's square, but rather does spend 3 squares worth of movement squeezed into a 10x5 column! Perhaps we have a different version of the PH, because my page 149 shows the ogre's squeezed outline overlapping into Tordek's square. It's not just squeezed into the squares beside him; it's also occupying about half of Tordek's space. This clearly shows that squeezing does override the normal rule, by imposing penalties for the movement. You shouldn't take the lack of an example of a medium creature squeezing to indicate that they don't follow the same rules.
Petrankov 09-04-07, 04:13 PM	Thread was an exercise in futility. I had a character that had a +30 to Spot. So with the -20 to the hide check to attack and move,the character spotted him and grappled him so other players could attack it. They actually managed to beat 2 Glooms, an Infernal and a 27th level Githyanki wizard without anyone dying. (Of course they were hurting :P ). Thanks for the help.
Tsuul 09-04-07, 07:47 PM	+30 to spot? That's something you should have known about. Ah well, better luck next time.
Petrankov 09-05-07, 11:11 AM	Probably should have known, but with 4-6 players depending on the week, working two jobs, going to school, planning a wedding and running another game on top of this one, tis not easy to keep track of the players stats too. :( Ah well, chalk one up for the PC's.