Post/Author/DateTime	Post
foxtail 09-18-07, 12:48 PM	I know that Hiding as performed as part of a character's movement. But can a ranger with the hide in plain sight ability, attacking with the Shot On The Run feat, Hide during the segment of his movement after the shot is taken? Or does it need to be a continuous move action?
tarkin 09-18-07, 01:03 PM	He can do a shot on the run and: 1. Hide in the first move 2. Take a shot. 3. Then hide again. However, the 2nd hide attempt has the standard -20 penalty to hide because of the fact that he hid right after firing. See Hide skill: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm
Eerongal 09-18-07, 01:03 PM	I dont see why not, however, it would probably fall under the sniping rule with hide Sniping If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot. Edit: Curses! Beaten to the punch by Tarkin!
foxtail 09-18-07, 02:45 PM	If said ranger was hiding, shooting, then hiding again, I'd agree. But what if he wasn't trying to hide during the first part of the move?
tarkin 09-18-07, 03:08 PM	Doesn't matter. He can still move, shoot then hide, with the -20 penalty applied for having shot then tried to hide. (It is easier to see someone when an arrow is sticking out of the ground indicating the direction from which they fired.)
rironin 09-18-07, 03:12 PM	He can do a shot on the run and: 1. Hide in the first move 2. Take a shot. 3. Then hide again. However, the 2nd hide attempt has the standard -20 penalty to hide because of the fact that he hid right after firing. See Hide skill: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htmWait a tick, I thought that the -20 penalty to Hide when sniping came from the fact that you're staying in the same place from which the shot originated. By the description in the Hide skill, you can't snipe while using shot on the run - sniping is a move action, and shot on the run takes place all in one attack action. Off the top of my head (i.e., having not thought this through all the way, so further argument may prove that this idea is foolish :P), I would only use the sniping rules if the sniper were hiding in one place, fired, and wanted to remain hiding in that one spot - the -20 penalty is there because it's so difficult to disguise the origin of the ranged attack when you fire. If you were hiding in one place (or visible, doesn't really matter) and you fired without trying to snipe, your opponent would be denied his Dex bonus against the attack, but would immediately know where you are (since you're not trying to snipe and remain hidden in that spot), but as long as the conditions are right, you should then be able to move and hide during movement (assuming you have an ability that allows you to hide in plain sight, while being observed). In my mind, shot on the run with hide in plain sight (for a ranger in a natural setting) should go like this: Move a bit as part of Shot on the Run, while Hiding. Hide check will determine if the target sees you (duh). Make your ranged attack. If the Hide check was successful, the target is caught unawares by the shot and is denied his Dex bonus to AC. However, the target can see you as soon as you fire, because you're not trying to conceal yourself as you make the shot. Finish your movement, making another Hide check. Since this is not sniping, you don't take a -20 penalty - everyone can see you after you fire, but you move to a new location while hiding, thus melting back into the shadows at a new hidden location. The above scenario isn't sniping to me because everyone knows where you were when you fired. Sniping is so hard because you want to remain in one spot and shoot someone without ever being detected. Using Shot on the Run while hiding before and after is different to me.
Eerongal 09-18-07, 03:32 PM	Action Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action. Sniping is not a move action. The hide after firing a ranged attack from hiding is a move action. Two ways to read this. Either hiding after firing is always sniping, and thusly it takes the -20, or hiding after firing in this scenario is impossible because it would take a move action to reconceal yourself, and since you're using shot on the run don't have a move action to expend doing this. This just states ranged attacks. All sniping is a ranged attack, but not all ranged attacks are sniping. Meaning if you don't consider this action he wants to do sniping, he cant do it. Also, shot on the run is not an attack action. Shot on the run is an attack action + a move action, meaning it's basically a full round action. It doesn't give you a free move action, you are just allowed to split up a move action, because normally you have to move either before or after the attack, not both.
tarkin 09-18-07, 03:36 PM	That is a very accurate response, Eerongal. I agree with everything you said.
jaelis 09-18-07, 03:48 PM	So leaving SotR out of the question for a moment, is it clear what happens if you shoot (standard action), then move and hide? I've never played that the penalty would apply in such a case. If that is correct, then I'd be fairly tempted to play SotR the same way, since you are doing the same things, just with a less strict separation in time. Like Eerongal's quote says, hiding is normally not an action at all, it is just done as part of movement. It doesn't specifically say that movement has to be a distinct move action. (Edit: it sounds to me like sniping during an SotR attack would be something where the target never sees you... the arrow just flies out of nowhere. Normal hiding would be where the target sees you, but then you run behind a tree and he looses sight of you again. I suppose then you would need total cover/concealment to hide again, since you are now being observed. So I guess that makes the whole thing irrelevant. If you can run to a position with total cover/concealment, then there's no need to hide anyway.)
BruceLeeroy 09-18-07, 03:51 PM	You don't need another move action with which to hide. A hide check can be made as part of any move action. Just account for the penalties due to attacking immediately prior.
rironin 09-18-07, 04:10 PM	Sniping is not a move action. The hide after firing a ranged attack from hiding is a move action. Two ways to read this. Either hiding after firing is always sniping, and thusly it takes the -20, or hiding after firing in this scenario is impossible because it would take a move action to reconceal yourself, and since you're using shot on the run don't have a move action to expend doing this. This just states ranged attacks. All sniping is a ranged attack, but not all ranged attacks are sniping. Meaning if you don't consider this action he wants to do sniping, he cant do it. Also, shot on the run is not an attack action. Shot on the run is an attack action + a move action, meaning it's basically a full round action. It doesn't give you a free move action, you are just allowed to split up a move action, because normally you have to move either before or after the attack, not both.Good catches on my errors! There are still some questions I have though. I'm still convinced that the action of sniping is all about starting out hidden, firing, and remaining hidden during and after the shot. I think that the discrepancy is in the sniping description: "you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again." The part about hiding immediately - to me that means it's so immediate that the sniper is never spotted, yeah? But when a ranger moves while hiding and takes a shot on the run, the shot itself isn't hidden. The ranger fires and in doing so exposes his position - he's not hidden anymore and everyone can see where he's standing. Then he moves again and hides, becoming hidden in a different location. This, to me, is not "hiding immediately" - and I'm not trying to be a dictionary jerk here, I really just think that's what they meant. If it is what they meant, then the -20 penalty (and the fact that the Hide check takes a move action) only applies when you want to stay hidden without moving or ever exposing yourself during the ranged attack. The ranger with shot on the run is using a different tactic, running around while camouflaged, popping out to surprise attack foes, and then melting back into the foliage. People trying to find the ranger know where he was when he took the shot, and can make educated guesses about his location, but they don't get any bonus on Spot (and he doesn't get a penalty on Hide) because he's just using his Hide in Plain Sight special ability. The ranger's enemies could also ready actions to fire at the ranger when he pops out to attack them. I think that the -20 penalty is justified for sniping (and not for these tactics) because the enemy will never get a chance to see their enemy, and because the sniper remains in the same location he fired from and yet still remains concealed. That's my take. A ranger therefore could not snipe while using Shot on the Run, because the Hide check made after sniping (which is the only way to hide immediately after taking a shot - and by immediately I mean to hide so that no one can detect you during or after the shot is made) requires a move action. But I think a ranger could move while hidden, expose himself to shoot (but still get the drop on foes), and then hide again while finishing off his Shot on the Run movement. Holes in that theory? (Edit: it sounds to me like sniping during an SotR attack would be something where the target never sees you... the arrow just flies out of nowhere. Normal hiding would be where the target sees you, but then you run behind a tree and he looses sight of you again. I suppose then you would need total cover/concealment to hide again, since you are now being observed. So I guess that makes the whole thing irrelevant. If you can run to a position with total cover/concealment, then there's no need to hide anyway.)I agree! But I don't think that it's irrelevant for the above ranger (or a shadowdancer). I think sniping means they never see you, and hiding before/after the shot with SotR isn't the same thing. Since sniping requires that move action, however, you can't snipe with SotR - you expose yourself when you fire, but can then hide again while moving to a new location. Of course, the only way to hide again after exposing yourself to your enemies would be if you had hide in plain sight, which will let you hide while being observed by the enemy.
Eerongal 09-18-07, 04:44 PM	That is a very accurate response, Eerongal. I agree with everything you said. Thank you, Tarkin. Good catches on my errors! There are still some questions I have though. I'm still convinced that the action of sniping is all about starting out hidden, firing, and remaining hidden during and after the shot. I think that the discrepancy is in the sniping description: "you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again." The part about hiding immediately - to me that means it's so immediate that the sniper is never spotted, yeah? But when a ranger moves while hiding and takes a shot on the run, the shot itself isn't hidden. The ranger fires and in doing so exposes his position - he's not hidden anymore and everyone can see where he's standing. Then he moves again and hides, becoming hidden in a different location. This, to me, is not "hiding immediately" - and I'm not trying to be a dictionary jerk here, I really just think that's what they meant. If it is what they meant, then the -20 penalty (and the fact that the Hide check takes a move action) only applies when you want to stay hidden without moving or ever exposing yourself during the ranged attack. The ranger with shot on the run is using a different tactic, running around while camouflaged, popping out to surprise attack foes, and then melting back into the foliage. People trying to find the ranger know where he was when he took the shot, and can make educated guesses about his location, but they don't get any bonus on Spot (and he doesn't get a penalty on Hide) because he's just using his Hide in Plain Sight special ability. The ranger's enemies could also ready actions to fire at the ranger when he pops out to attack them. I think that the -20 penalty is justified for sniping (and not for these tactics) because the enemy will never get a chance to see their enemy, and because the sniper remains in the same location he fired from and yet still remains concealed. That's my take. A ranger therefore could not snipe while using Shot on the Run, because the Hide check made after sniping (which is the only way to hide immediately after taking a shot - and by immediately I mean to hide so that no one can detect you during or after the shot is made) requires a move action. But I think a ranger could move while hidden, expose himself to shoot (but still get the drop on foes), and then hide again while finishing off his Shot on the Run movement. Holes in that theory? I agree! But I don't think that it's irrelevant for the above ranger (or a shadowdancer). I think sniping means they never see you, and hiding before/after the shot with SotR isn't the same thing. Since sniping requires that move action, however, you can't snipe with SotR - you expose yourself when you fire, but can then hide again while moving to a new location. Of course, the only way to hide again after exposing yourself to your enemies would be if you had hide in plain sight, which will let you hide while being observed by the enemy. First off, i would like to say thank you for not being rude/a jerk about being proved wrong (it happens alot around here). However, the main problem i see with this theory is that you're making alot of assumptions about how Hide in plain sight effects hide. All HiPS does is make you able hide when being observed. It doesn't change how any other aspect of hiding works. If firing out of hiding reveals you normally (the sniping clause), then it reveals you with HiPS. As such, it requires the same thing to rehide oneself it would normally. And as far as how you interpret the immediately, i would NEVER take to it to be anything other than "anytime during the rest of your turn", because if you didnt, even someone without camo/HiPS could simply move a few squares away and hide again without the -20 to hide checks after firing, afterall, they still have a move action remaining if they don't hide again. This is clearly not how it's meant to work. Hope that helps clear it up!
rironin 09-18-07, 04:57 PM	However, the main problem i see with this theory is that you're making alot of assumptions about how Hide in plain sight effects hide. All HiPS does is make you able hide when being observed. It doesn't change how any other aspect of hiding works. If firing out of hiding reveals you normally (the sniping clause), then it reveals you with HiPS. As such, it requires the same thing to rehide oneself it would normally. And as far as how you interpret the immediately, i would NEVER take to it to be anything other than "anytime during the rest of your turn", because if you didnt, even someone without camo/HiPS could simply move a few squares away and hide again without the -20 to hide checks after firing, afterall, they still have a move action remaining if they don't hide again. This is clearly not how it's meant to work.Right back atcha with the courtesy comment. Rules discussions always go more smoothly when we all just get along. :) I think we may be misunderstanding one another. I believe that firing out of hiding reveals you normally, and that it reveals you if you've got HiPS. I think that firing out of hiding while attempting to snipe does not reveal you if you make the -20 Hide check. I don't see why you can't fire, thus revealing yourself, and then move and hide - even without HiPS. The reason HiPS is almost always required, however, is that as soon as you fire, you are visible to everyone, and therefore are being observed. The only way to hide is to go completely behind cover at this point, and even then, the enemy has a good idea where you are. I see nothing wrong with this. In combat, it's not something anyone can abuse, and that's why they generally don't. The rogue gets a sneak off if he's hiding, and then has to pull some tricky maneuvers or resort to some other form of deception to get more ranged sneaks. This is why HiPS is so nice to have; even then, there are restrictions. That's why I don't really think that it's clear the rules intended the -20 penalty to apply in all those situations; if it were seriously abusable, then I'd be more inclined to agree with your reading of the RAW - the RAI, in that case, would point strongly towards the penalty always applying. But I don't see where the fire is, really.
Vaelan 09-19-07, 04:04 AM	And as far as how you interpret the immediately, i would NEVER take to it to be anything other than "anytime during the rest of your turn", because if you didnt, even someone without camo/HiPS could simply move a few squares away and hide again without the -20 to hide checks after firing, afterall, they still have a move action remaining if they don't hide again. A provision already exists to prevent the rule from being bypassed: the rule that you can't hide while being observed. As such, your suggested interpretation serves only to stop legitimate, intended bypasses, such as Hide in Plain Sight or the use of total cover/concealment. The rules are surprisingly coherent when you bother to use them in their entirety rather than running off of an immediate reaction to one of the many applicable rules. Two ways to read this. Either hiding after firing is always sniping, and thusly it takes the -20, or hiding after firing in this scenario is impossible because it would take a move action to reconceal yourself Actually, that would be reading it one way twice. You're saying "either you apply sniping rule A (-20 to the check) or you apply sniping rule B (hidng requiring a move action)." This cannot sniping, due to the arrangement of actions, so you don't apply any of the sniping rules. According to the text you cited, hiding normally does not require an action at all. It is made as part of movement (notice that it says movement and not a move action). Since you're moving after your shot, you can make a hide check as part of that movement and thus you are not barred from making a hide check on the basis of actions. You will most likely be barred for other reasons, though.
Shimura 09-19-07, 04:29 AM	I would have to agree with the "folks" that say Nay. Shot-on-the-run is a full round action (in the sense that its an attack action interrupting a move action). Sniping says you can take "one shot" and then hide as a move action; if your shot-on-the-running you don't have that spare move action. Although maybe in the lines of RAI, the woodland archery tactical feat (Races of the Wild) has the ability to moving snipe as one if's tactical tricks. Where if you were hidden you can move shoot & snipe, and keep doing it each turn as long as you remain hidden...
yrogerg 09-19-07, 07:33 AM	I'm a little confused here: if the intent of the sniping rule was that a character can either re-hide as a move action with a -20 penalty, or they can use their move action to move -*even five feet*- and then hide for free as part of this movement, with no penalty, then in what situation, exactly, would the former rule ever come up? Why would anyone ever do that? Frankly, that interpretation seems to cause that rule to apply to a situation that should never come up, so I'm inclined to say that's not how these rules interact.
foxtail 09-19-07, 09:19 AM	I'm a little confused here... I think the sniping rule's intent was to let the attacking character remain unseen and unlocated throughout the whole process, without having to move from the chosen sniping point. This Shot On The Run combo that's being discussed reveals the presence location of the attacker, if only briefly.
rironin 09-19-07, 10:18 AM	I think the sniping rule's intent was to let the attacking character remain unseen and unlocated throughout the whole process, without having to move from the chosen sniping point. This Shot On The Run combo that's being discussed reveals the presence location of the attacker, if only briefly.Agreed. To add to foxtail's response, yrogerg, remember that the situation you described (in which someone moves 5 feet and hides at no penalty) isn't as easy to pull off for most characters as you think. If a character doesn't snipe, he avoids the -20 penalty, but he necessarily exposes himself when he fires. His enemies are therefore observing him when he takes his move action (even if he moves 5 feet) and according to the rules of Hide, he cannot hide while being observed (even casually) unless he first finds total cover to get completely out of sight and then re-hides. The Hide skill makes clear that even then, the enemy will probably have a good idea where you are. Since most combats occur at least somewhat out in the open, your average PC will find hiding after firing nearly impossible unless he snipes, since he can't hide while observed. Only characters with hide in plain sight can get around it, and they have restrictions on when they're able to do it.
Pechvarry 09-19-07, 12:33 PM	I apologize if this has already been covered, but given that I only have 8 minutes remaining on my lunch break... There's a feat in Races of the Wild. Tactical. One of it's 3 uses (do I have to worry about OGL stuff if I only talk about 1/3rd of it? o0) is the ability to move while sniping. I'm thinking the feat's called Woodland Archer or some such. Anywho, without any of my material with me, does anyone think that how this ability is worded will have an effect on how this SotR scenario would work out? Especially with Hide in Plain Sight? On another note, in a campaign we're playing currently, my DM wanted to see what would happen if we allowed Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz to be taken, replacing Spring Attack with SotR for prereqs. Since the character using these abilities is a Scout with Hide in Plain Sight and said Tactical Feat, we're still not sure whether or not to rule that he can take all of his shots or not. Currently: he has the choice of attacking multiple times, or attacking once while hiding. This is probably the more balanced way to do things (Don't worry about the balance of this campaign -- it's Epic. 'nuff said), but I have to wonder if it'd really hurt to be able to make all his attacks and hiding. I guess any opinions on this matter will depend entirely on how useful of a feat you think SotR is to begin with. For our part (perhaps the natural flow of encounters in most of our campaigns), it's never a useful feat. A decent archery path requires a lot of feats, and adding Dodge/Mobility to the list doesn't help much when your inherent advantage (range) is often enough for defensive capacity. Feel free to ignore these last 2 paragraphs if they're derailing.
Vaelan 09-19-07, 04:48 PM	I would have to agree with the "folks" that say Nay. Shot-on-the-run is a full round action (in the sense that its an attack action interrupting a move action). Sniping says you can take "one shot" and then hide as a move action; if your shot-on-the-running you don't have that spare move action. Sniping isn't even in question. That was just Tarkin derailing the thread. It is obvious that the actions don't work out right. The real question is whether or not, and in which circumstances, one can hide as part of the movement taken after the ranged attack. The answer to this is that a Ranger with Hide in Plain Sight can hide while being observed, so they don't have to bother hiding with a -20 penalty while attacking. They can fire and, as part of the movement made after firing, hide with no penalty. I'm a little confused here: if the intent of the sniping rule was that a character can either re-hide as a move action with a -20 penalty, or they can use their move action to move -*even five feet*- and then hide for free as part of this movement, with no penalty, then in what situation, exactly, would the former rule ever come up? When you don't have Hide in Plain Sight and thus cannot hide while being observed. When you do have the ability, however, you don't need to bother sniping. Here are the chains of events... Sniping: You fire, hide at -20 before anyone notices you. You don't need Hide in Plain Sight for this. Not Sniping: You fire, become noticed, hide at no penalty if you are able to hide while being observed (read: have Hide in Plain Sight). Anywho, without any of my material with me, does anyone think that how this ability is worded will have an effect on how this SotR scenario would work out? Especially with Hide in Plain Sight? No. It is absolutely, 100% irrelevant because a person using Shot on the Run with Hide in Plain Sight is not sniping. ...but I have to wonder if it'd really hurt to be able to make all his attacks and hiding. Seeing as how Scouts gain nothing from hiding but a 50% miss chance and not even that if you're playing Epic (what doesn't have extraordinary senses that make hiding useless in epic?), I would imagine that it wouldn't be a big deal.
Nom 09-19-07, 08:04 PM	I agree with Vaelan's take, but want to add one observation:Not Sniping: You fire, become noticed, hide at no penalty if you are able to hide while being observed (read: have Hide in Plain Sight).When you snipe, no-one ever actually knows where you are, though those who see where the shot lands (or hits) might be able to guess the generally direction. When you re-hide (HiPS or total cover/concealment), everyone sees where you were and roughly where you went and thus has a much better basis for guessing where you are now.
1 ton ghost 09-20-07, 01:50 PM	wow, bigass thread for such an isolated incident. correct me if i'm wrong, plz, this should've been fleshed out RIGHT AT 3.5's advent...not in '07. no one is 100% on this. IMO: Shot on the Run is the totally fair trade for stealth. you're gaining a great deal of mobility (consider hallway combat; total cover, 5ft out, shoot, 5ft back for total cover again...still has to work up on you past your tank to engage ranged opponent ideally, very safe, very effective especially w/ Precise Shot) -it's a move, attack, move. Sniping isn't really an option and if it were @ -20, you're probably going to be seen anyway. did everyone agree sniping was a move action anyway? -normally, you'd need Hide in Plain Sight, still... for the rest of us, you need to make a Bluff check to create a diversion to Hide, yes? if you've been zeroed you still gotta' make it to new cover as target has your point of origin if you're not sniping. otherwise it's HiPS or nothing, yes? and it's a -5 Hide/5ft. increment of "open space" (non-cover or concealment). another argument for your spotter to ignite smokestick (any conealment really) after sniper has shot for some modicum of Hide attempt. I think Improved Diversion (Complete Adv) is what you guys should be looking at given move actions and all. no one has mentioned the Bluff roll to creatve a diversion to Hide. a snipe was/is (extinct?) a real bird btw. a real ***** to hunt, hence the super camoflague waiting game. snipe hunt isn't just a drunken goose chase