Hide then sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hide then sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pandapeep
04-01-08, 12:42 PM Ok, I was wondering, since, I didn't see anything in the hide skill that mentioned it. If you are hiding and then make an attack, lets say a melee one, is your opponent denied his dex mod to AC? It seems logical to me, but, like I said, I didn't see anything in hide, or sneak attack about it.
Eerongal
04-01-08, 12:45 PM Invisible
Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any).

You're effectively invisible for 1 attack against someone, basically.
Amaril
04-01-08, 02:22 PM More accurately, it follows the rules for initiative and surprised creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise).

Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

Unaware Combatants

Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
ciaran
04-01-08, 02:46 PM The sniping rules are all in there. They're just not all in one place, so its a bit hard to piece together.

As I understand it, if they didn't see you hide and they fail their spot once they come to a place they could theoretically see you, then you are considered invisible for that one attack. Like I said its a bit vague so your DM might play it some other way.
mplindustries
04-01-08, 03:53 PM Unaware Combatants

Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
This doesn't quite help, actually, as someone could have acted already but still be unaware of someone else. They are most certainly not flat-footed anymore, as they have acted this combat, but they are still denied their dexterity bonus against people they can't see.

Basically, if you are out of sight, you are treated as invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) as far as that opponent is concerned. Note that the definition for "Invisible" is actually "Visually undetected." Its not explicit anywhere, but it is easily implied that this includes being hidden.
Amaril
04-01-08, 03:58 PM This doesn't quite help, actually, as someone could have acted already but still be unaware of someone else. They are most certainly not flat-footed anymore, as they have acted this combat, but they are still denied their dexterity bonus against people they can't see.

Basically, if you are out of sight, you are treated as invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) as far as that opponent is concerned. Note that the definition for "Invisible" is actually "Visually undetected." Its not explicit anywhere, but it is easily implied that this includes being hidden.

While true, I included it because the OP didn't indicate whether the attack was before or after combat had started. In the event that combat had not started yet, the target certainly is flat-footed and loses Dex to AC.
Tsuul
04-01-08, 04:06 PM If the attack is starting off the encounter and the opponent is unaware of the attack, it sparks a surprise round in which the opponent will be denied his dex until he can act. So sneak attack will apply.

Note that the attacker will not be hidden for this attack unless he takes a -20 penalty to his hide check, but that doesn't matter since the defender is denied his dex from being flat-footed.

There is a step by step in the FAQ.
search for the words "spring attack" to find the question easier.
Amaril
04-01-08, 04:18 PM Note that the attacker will not be hidden for this attack unless he takes a -20 penalty to his hide check, but that doesn't matter since the defender is denied his dex from being flat-footed.
Only with a melee attack and if the target is not adjacent or within the same area of concealment.

If the target is standing adjacent to a shadowy area for example, then there is no penalty to the hide check with a melee attack. If the target is within 30ft of the the attacker who is in the area of concealment, and the attacker uses a ranged weapon, then sneak attack applies without the penalty to hide.
Tsuul
04-01-08, 04:22 PM Ah yea, I forgot the difference on melee and ranged.

It's impossible to snipe during a surprise round. Standard action to attack + move action to hide.
Amaril
04-01-08, 04:36 PM Ah yea, I forgot the difference on melee and ranged.

It's impossible to snipe during a surprise round. Standard action to attack + move action to hide.
No, you hide before the surprise round even begins. You hide well before an encounter comes along, essentially setting up an ambush. You make your hide check when you hide. Then when the target is within range, they roll an opposed spot check. If they don't see you, and you attack, they are surprised and you get to apply sneak attack damage.

In fact, you can even choose to stay hidden, move around for a few rounds of combat (if the remainder of your party has attacked already), and sneak attack well after combat has begun.

Alternatively, there are a myriad of conditions regarding cover and concealment that allow you to hide during combat, but they are more than I care to cover.
Tsuul
04-01-08, 04:51 PM No, you hide before the surprise round even begins.True You hide well before an encounter comes along, essentially setting up an ambush. You make your hide check when you hide.True Then when the target is within range, they roll an opposed spot check.True If they don't see you, and you attack, they are surprised and you get to apply sneak attack damage.True, the sneak attack damage is caused from the surprise; being flat-footed. A kobold charging out of a bush screaming his lungs off after successfully hiding still catches his opponent flat-footed and may apply sneak attack damage.

In fact, you can even choose to stay hidden, move around for a few rounds of combat (if the remainder of your party has attacked already), and sneak attack well after combat has begun.Not always true. If you tried to snipe during the surprise round, then all you can do is attack, you have no time to hide. After the surprise round, init is rolled normally and the ambushers are just standing there like targets.
Amaril
04-01-08, 04:55 PM Not always true. If you tried to snipe during the surprise round, then all you can do is attack, you have no time to hide. After the surprise round, init is rolled normally and the ambushers are just standing there like targets.I meant instead of attacking in the surprise round. Rather than attack, just stay hidden.
Tsuul
04-01-08, 05:04 PM I meant instead of attacking in the surprise round.Ah yea. But it ruins the fun of assassins opening up first :tantrum:.
Amaril
04-01-08, 05:11 PM Ah yea. But it ruins the fun of assassins opening up first :tantrum:.

No way! It's all about the anticipation and savoring the moment. Wait for it... Wait for it...

:hides:

(Seriously? That's the best hiding icon we got?)
Shaggy_Shaggs
04-01-08, 10:29 PM No way! It's all about the anticipation and savoring the moment. Wait for it... Wait for it...

:hides:

(Seriously? That's the best hiding icon we got?)Nah, that's just the best hiding icon you can see. There are 24 ninjas hidden in this post, by the way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pandapeep 04-01-08, 12:42 PM	Ok, I was wondering, since, I didn't see anything in the hide skill that mentioned it. If you are hiding and then make an attack, lets say a melee one, is your opponent denied his dex mod to AC? It seems logical to me, but, like I said, I didn't see anything in hide, or sneak attack about it.
Eerongal 04-01-08, 12:45 PM	Invisible Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). You're effectively invisible for 1 attack against someone, basically.
Amaril 04-01-08, 02:22 PM	More accurately, it follows the rules for initiative and surprised creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise). Surprise When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised. Determining Awareness Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware. Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks. Unaware Combatants Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
ciaran 04-01-08, 02:46 PM	The sniping rules are all in there. They're just not all in one place, so its a bit hard to piece together. As I understand it, if they didn't see you hide and they fail their spot once they come to a place they could theoretically see you, then you are considered invisible for that one attack. Like I said its a bit vague so your DM might play it some other way.
mplindustries 04-01-08, 03:53 PM	Unaware Combatants Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. This doesn't quite help, actually, as someone could have acted already but still be unaware of someone else. They are most certainly not flat-footed anymore, as they have acted this combat, but they are still denied their dexterity bonus against people they can't see. Basically, if you are out of sight, you are treated as invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) as far as that opponent is concerned. Note that the definition for "Invisible" is actually "Visually undetected." Its not explicit anywhere, but it is easily implied that this includes being hidden.
Amaril 04-01-08, 03:58 PM	This doesn't quite help, actually, as someone could have acted already but still be unaware of someone else. They are most certainly not flat-footed anymore, as they have acted this combat, but they are still denied their dexterity bonus against people they can't see. Basically, if you are out of sight, you are treated as invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) as far as that opponent is concerned. Note that the definition for "Invisible" is actually "Visually undetected." Its not explicit anywhere, but it is easily implied that this includes being hidden. While true, I included it because the OP didn't indicate whether the attack was before or after combat had started. In the event that combat had not started yet, the target certainly is flat-footed and loses Dex to AC.
Tsuul 04-01-08, 04:06 PM	If the attack is starting off the encounter and the opponent is unaware of the attack, it sparks a surprise round in which the opponent will be denied his dex until he can act. So sneak attack will apply. Note that the attacker will not be hidden for this attack unless he takes a -20 penalty to his hide check, but that doesn't matter since the defender is denied his dex from being flat-footed. There is a step by step in the FAQ. search for the words "spring attack" to find the question easier.
Amaril 04-01-08, 04:18 PM	Note that the attacker will not be hidden for this attack unless he takes a -20 penalty to his hide check, but that doesn't matter since the defender is denied his dex from being flat-footed. Only with a melee attack and if the target is not adjacent or within the same area of concealment. If the target is standing adjacent to a shadowy area for example, then there is no penalty to the hide check with a melee attack. If the target is within 30ft of the the attacker who is in the area of concealment, and the attacker uses a ranged weapon, then sneak attack applies without the penalty to hide.
Tsuul 04-01-08, 04:22 PM	Ah yea, I forgot the difference on melee and ranged. It's impossible to snipe during a surprise round. Standard action to attack + move action to hide.
Amaril 04-01-08, 04:36 PM	Ah yea, I forgot the difference on melee and ranged. It's impossible to snipe during a surprise round. Standard action to attack + move action to hide. No, you hide before the surprise round even begins. You hide well before an encounter comes along, essentially setting up an ambush. You make your hide check when you hide. Then when the target is within range, they roll an opposed spot check. If they don't see you, and you attack, they are surprised and you get to apply sneak attack damage. In fact, you can even choose to stay hidden, move around for a few rounds of combat (if the remainder of your party has attacked already), and sneak attack well after combat has begun. Alternatively, there are a myriad of conditions regarding cover and concealment that allow you to hide during combat, but they are more than I care to cover.
Tsuul 04-01-08, 04:51 PM	No, you hide before the surprise round even begins.True You hide well before an encounter comes along, essentially setting up an ambush. You make your hide check when you hide.True Then when the target is within range, they roll an opposed spot check.True If they don't see you, and you attack, they are surprised and you get to apply sneak attack damage.True, the sneak attack damage is caused from the surprise; being flat-footed. A kobold charging out of a bush screaming his lungs off after successfully hiding still catches his opponent flat-footed and may apply sneak attack damage. In fact, you can even choose to stay hidden, move around for a few rounds of combat (if the remainder of your party has attacked already), and sneak attack well after combat has begun.Not always true. If you tried to snipe during the surprise round, then all you can do is attack, you have no time to hide. After the surprise round, init is rolled normally and the ambushers are just standing there like targets.
Amaril 04-01-08, 04:55 PM	Not always true. If you tried to snipe during the surprise round, then all you can do is attack, you have no time to hide. After the surprise round, init is rolled normally and the ambushers are just standing there like targets.I meant instead of attacking in the surprise round. Rather than attack, just stay hidden.
Tsuul 04-01-08, 05:04 PM	I meant instead of attacking in the surprise round.Ah yea. But it ruins the fun of assassins opening up first :tantrum:.
Amaril 04-01-08, 05:11 PM	Ah yea. But it ruins the fun of assassins opening up first :tantrum:. No way! It's all about the anticipation and savoring the moment. Wait for it... Wait for it... :hides: (Seriously? That's the best hiding icon we got?)
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-01-08, 10:29 PM	No way! It's all about the anticipation and savoring the moment. Wait for it... Wait for it... :hides: (Seriously? That's the best hiding icon we got?)Nah, that's just the best hiding icon you can see. There are 24 ninjas hidden in this post, by the way.