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Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cavienn
07-21-07, 01:04 AM A slight issue has come up in a game I'm in, and further research has yielded surprisingly little. We've always gone under the assumption that if you are hiding (via the Hide skill) and attack someone, they lose Dex bonus to AC, just as if you were invisible (as per table 8-5). That allows you to sneak attack. Which only makes sense, since rogues would hide, then attack from hiding.

However, nowhere in the Hide description, or in and around table 8-5 does it specifically state this.

I'm assuming we're doing it right, but does anyone have any rules justification?

Even assuming we're right, there's another, more pertinent question. If you are hiding (or invisible), and attack someone, do they lose Dex bonus to AC against just the *first* attack, or all attacks until they're next action (as if they were flat-footed)? Can a rogue sneak up on someone after combat has started and do a full-attack, getting sneak attacks on all of them?

(I know the rogue could just flank, but this is actually more pertinent for a ninja character, which can't sudden strike when flanking.)

Thanks for your help!
AAB
07-21-07, 02:19 AM I'd say that
1) a character who successfully hides is effectively invisible
2) a character is treated as flat-footed until his or her next turn if attacked by an invisible/hidden character
Tsuul
07-21-07, 03:15 AM A lot of people use the invisibility spell as the basis for what you were doing. But you are correct in noting the [core] rules are silent on the issue. To blur it further, the Comp Adv has added an additional rule to hiding allowing you to cross open terrain and remain hidden. What does this have to do with attacking while invisible? When doing that maneuver, if you succeed, the opponent is treated "as being flat-footed with respect to you."

The FAQ points out that you must take the dreaded -20 penalty to your hide check if you are attacking. Search it for a question on "spring attack" to find the question/answer.

Do one, the other, both, or something else (treating it as invis the spell, etc...). It's up to you.
Egres
07-21-07, 03:37 AM From the Sage online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070201a)archive:

The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage.
Wraithwin
07-21-07, 10:41 AM Even without digging through the rules, it's a simple equation that I'm pretty sure is supported throughout the core books;

Enemy uses Spot vs your Hide check
If enemy fails, enemy is unable to see you (plain and simple)
If you are unable to see your foe for any reason, you are denied Dex against them
A foe who is denied their Dex mod is subject to Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike (provided they are subject to such effects and within 30ft of you)

A successful Hide check doesn't give you all the benefits Invisibility does, but clearly does give you the ability to Sneak or Sudden if the subject is vulnerable to such things.

If for any reason someone would still be loony enough to contest the above, I point to Egres' quote from and link to Sage Advice above my post. :)
sirkently
07-21-07, 11:05 AM I agree that you can hide then sneak attack your opponent. The next issue is if you can get more than 1 attack with sneak attack? We have always played that after your first attack the opponent can see you and therefore you don't get to add SA after the first hit.
Wraithwin
07-21-07, 11:12 AM The FAQ points out that you must take the dreaded -20 penalty to your hide check if you are attacking.

You don't necessarily automatically become visible, but as stated above you soak a -20 penalty to Hide after performing the act. Theoretically you could get multiple attacks with Sneak Attack but here's the problem: If the -20 penalty is untyped, that means every attack you make imposes that penalty... -20 to Hide after the first, -40 after the second, etc. Likewise, I think that using the Hide skill is considered part of a move action which means you'd only get 1 attack after hiding, unless you attacked the following round, but the round after you'd have to re-hide. (right?) If a creature's pre-epic spot wasn't good enough to see you after you've applied a -40 or more to your check... I mean damn, killing the creature is practically committing a public service. LOL

My only question is this: Do you use the original spot check modified by your new -20 penalties, or does it get to re-roll every time you attack (vs your new craptastic hide check)?
Dheran
07-21-07, 12:10 PM You're confused, Wraithwin. Let me try to help.You don't necessarily automatically become visible, but as stated above you soak a -20 penalty to Hide after performing the act. Close, but not quite right. You take the penalty to your Hide check while attacking (i.e., in mid-swing), so you're rolling to see if you're effectively invisible during and after that attack. (If you were already hidden before, you're already effectively invisible for that attack and the roll is just to determine if you're still hidden afterward.)
Theoretically you could get multiple attacks with Sneak Attack but here's the problem: If the -20 penalty is untyped, that means every attack you make imposes that penalty... -20 to Hide after the first, -40 after the second, etc. Huh? There's nothing that says these penalties are cumulative.It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. It's just a single -20 penalty to your Hide check while attacking. Make your Hide roll, add your modifiers, and subtract 20. That's it. Either you beat their Spot check and are effectively invisible, or you don't. The check is made while attacking, so you can try again next attack with exactly the same mechanics. If you beat their Spot check you've become effectively invisible during that swing.
Likewise, I think that using the Hide skill is considered part of a move action which means you'd only get 1 attack after hiding, unless you attacked the following round, but the round after you'd have to re-hide. (right?) Again you're confused.Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement You're off the mark here, for two reasons. First: The word "normally" is important. You completely forgot the first line that says you may Hide while attacking, running, or charging. So movement is usually, but not necessarily, involved. Second: You shouldn't confuse movement with a move action. Movement includes 5' steps or anything else that takes you out of your square. Move actions include things like retrieving stored objects which aren't movement.My only question is this: Do you use the original spot check modified by your new -20 penalties, or does it get to re-roll every time you attack (vs your new craptastic hide check)? Each attack is a new Hide check, with the identical -20 penalty, opposed by a new Spot roll.
Cavienn
07-21-07, 12:10 PM Thanks for the help on the Hide vs Invisibility issue--the sage response certainly clears things up!

Still curious about multiple attacks. Are they denied their Dex bonus until their next turn, or until immediately after the first attack is made?

If it's the latter, you could make a new hide check (I'd rule for a new one, rather than keeping the old) at a -20 penalty to stay hidden and thus get a second attack. But I still think it might be the former.

Are there any FAQs, Sage responses or obscure rulings I've missed that cover that?
AAB
07-21-07, 12:24 PM I don't know the "official" answer, but I'd say it works just like a surprise round. They remain flat-footed until they act next.
Wraithwin
07-21-07, 12:33 PM (re-reads his previous post)

...damn...

I was way off on most of that. :eek:

That's what I get for trying to post right after I wake up... Heh.

Sorry 'bout that, and thanks for clearing it up for them for me, Dheran.

(leaves to obtain coffee or some-such caffeinated beverage, his head hanging in shame)
kalstrand
07-21-07, 01:09 PM You become visible when you attack while under the Invisiblity spell so after your first swing they can see you and are no longer denied their Dex.

Same goes for hide with the possible exception of the -20 to stay hidden. I havn't looked at that particular rule so until I can actually read it I won't give a solid answer except to say that if it is worded in accordance with what previous posters have stated that you could get multiple attacks while performing a full-attack action making the hide check between each swing to keep from being seen and there for stay invisible to the target.
BlackHalfDragon
07-21-07, 02:39 PM I'd say that if you hide and arent seen and can get close enough to do the stabby ness (or shoot) in the next round (which would probably allow another chance at being spotted) you can get the sneak in
Dheran
07-21-07, 08:02 PM I'd say that if you hide and arent seen and can get close enough to do the stabby ness (or shoot) in the next round (which would probably allow another chance at being spotted) you can get the sneak in That's almost what the Move between Cover rule (in Complete Adventurer) says. You're limited to moving your Hide ranks, in feet, away from cover/concealment while still staying hidden.
KrisTheGreat
07-24-07, 10:48 PM there is an alternate use of the hide skill that allows you to move from one point of cover to another i would employ this use to attempt to sneak in behind your foe and knife him in the back like it was in the good old second edition days one thing that is often forgoten in play is that you cant hide while you are being observed or when there is not cover or concealment many players attempt to use the hide skill to hide in plain sight

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cavienn 07-21-07, 01:04 AM	A slight issue has come up in a game I'm in, and further research has yielded surprisingly little. We've always gone under the assumption that if you are hiding (via the Hide skill) and attack someone, they lose Dex bonus to AC, just as if you were invisible (as per table 8-5). That allows you to sneak attack. Which only makes sense, since rogues would hide, then attack from hiding. However, nowhere in the Hide description, or in and around table 8-5 does it specifically state this. I'm assuming we're doing it right, but does anyone have any rules justification? Even assuming we're right, there's another, more pertinent question. If you are hiding (or invisible), and attack someone, do they lose Dex bonus to AC against just the first attack, or all attacks until they're next action (as if they were flat-footed)? Can a rogue sneak up on someone after combat has started and do a full-attack, getting sneak attacks on all of them? (I know the rogue could just flank, but this is actually more pertinent for a ninja character, which can't sudden strike when flanking.) Thanks for your help!
AAB 07-21-07, 02:19 AM	I'd say that 1) a character who successfully hides is effectively invisible 2) a character is treated as flat-footed until his or her next turn if attacked by an invisible/hidden character
Tsuul 07-21-07, 03:15 AM	A lot of people use the invisibility spell as the basis for what you were doing. But you are correct in noting the [core] rules are silent on the issue. To blur it further, the Comp Adv has added an additional rule to hiding allowing you to cross open terrain and remain hidden. What does this have to do with attacking while invisible? When doing that maneuver, if you succeed, the opponent is treated "as being flat-footed with respect to you." The FAQ points out that you must take the dreaded -20 penalty to your hide check if you are attacking. Search it for a question on "spring attack" to find the question/answer. Do one, the other, both, or something else (treating it as invis the spell, etc...). It's up to you.
Egres 07-21-07, 03:37 AM	From the Sage online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070201a)archive: The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage.
Wraithwin 07-21-07, 10:41 AM	Even without digging through the rules, it's a simple equation that I'm pretty sure is supported throughout the core books; Enemy uses Spot vs your Hide check If enemy fails, enemy is unable to see you (plain and simple) If you are unable to see your foe for any reason, you are denied Dex against them A foe who is denied their Dex mod is subject to Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike (provided they are subject to such effects and within 30ft of you) A successful Hide check doesn't give you all the benefits Invisibility does, but clearly does give you the ability to Sneak or Sudden if the subject is vulnerable to such things. If for any reason someone would still be loony enough to contest the above, I point to Egres' quote from and link to Sage Advice above my post. :)
sirkently 07-21-07, 11:05 AM	I agree that you can hide then sneak attack your opponent. The next issue is if you can get more than 1 attack with sneak attack? We have always played that after your first attack the opponent can see you and therefore you don't get to add SA after the first hit.
Wraithwin 07-21-07, 11:12 AM	The FAQ points out that you must take the dreaded -20 penalty to your hide check if you are attacking. You don't necessarily automatically become visible, but as stated above you soak a -20 penalty to Hide after performing the act. Theoretically you could get multiple attacks with Sneak Attack but here's the problem: If the -20 penalty is untyped, that means every attack you make imposes that penalty... -20 to Hide after the first, -40 after the second, etc. Likewise, I think that using the Hide skill is considered part of a move action which means you'd only get 1 attack after hiding, unless you attacked the following round, but the round after you'd have to re-hide. (right?) If a creature's pre-epic spot wasn't good enough to see you after you've applied a -40 or more to your check... I mean damn, killing the creature is practically committing a public service. LOL My only question is this: Do you use the original spot check modified by your new -20 penalties, or does it get to re-roll every time you attack (vs your new craptastic hide check)?
Dheran 07-21-07, 12:10 PM	You're confused, Wraithwin. Let me try to help.You don't necessarily automatically become visible, but as stated above you soak a -20 penalty to Hide after performing the act. Close, but not quite right. You take the penalty to your Hide check while attacking (i.e., in mid-swing), so you're rolling to see if you're effectively invisible during and after that attack. (If you were already hidden before, you're already effectively invisible for that attack and the roll is just to determine if you're still hidden afterward.) Theoretically you could get multiple attacks with Sneak Attack but here's the problem: If the -20 penalty is untyped, that means every attack you make imposes that penalty... -20 to Hide after the first, -40 after the second, etc. Huh? There's nothing that says these penalties are cumulative.It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. It's just a single -20 penalty to your Hide check while attacking. Make your Hide roll, add your modifiers, and subtract 20. That's it. Either you beat their Spot check and are effectively invisible, or you don't. The check is made while attacking, so you can try again next attack with exactly the same mechanics. If you beat their Spot check you've become effectively invisible during that swing. Likewise, I think that using the Hide skill is considered part of a move action which means you'd only get 1 attack after hiding, unless you attacked the following round, but the round after you'd have to re-hide. (right?) Again you're confused.Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement You're off the mark here, for two reasons. First: The word "normally" is important. You completely forgot the first line that says you may Hide while attacking, running, or charging. So movement is usually, but not necessarily, involved. Second: You shouldn't confuse movement with a move action. Movement includes 5' steps or anything else that takes you out of your square. Move actions include things like retrieving stored objects which aren't movement.My only question is this: Do you use the original spot check modified by your new -20 penalties, or does it get to re-roll every time you attack (vs your new craptastic hide check)? Each attack is a new Hide check, with the identical -20 penalty, opposed by a new Spot roll.
Cavienn 07-21-07, 12:10 PM	Thanks for the help on the Hide vs Invisibility issue--the sage response certainly clears things up! Still curious about multiple attacks. Are they denied their Dex bonus until their next turn, or until immediately after the first attack is made? If it's the latter, you could make a new hide check (I'd rule for a new one, rather than keeping the old) at a -20 penalty to stay hidden and thus get a second attack. But I still think it might be the former. Are there any FAQs, Sage responses or obscure rulings I've missed that cover that?
AAB 07-21-07, 12:24 PM	I don't know the "official" answer, but I'd say it works just like a surprise round. They remain flat-footed until they act next.
Wraithwin 07-21-07, 12:33 PM	(re-reads his previous post) ...damn... I was way off on most of that. :eek: That's what I get for trying to post right after I wake up... Heh. Sorry 'bout that, and thanks for clearing it up for them for me, Dheran. (leaves to obtain coffee or some-such caffeinated beverage, his head hanging in shame)
kalstrand 07-21-07, 01:09 PM	You become visible when you attack while under the Invisiblity spell so after your first swing they can see you and are no longer denied their Dex. Same goes for hide with the possible exception of the -20 to stay hidden. I havn't looked at that particular rule so until I can actually read it I won't give a solid answer except to say that if it is worded in accordance with what previous posters have stated that you could get multiple attacks while performing a full-attack action making the hide check between each swing to keep from being seen and there for stay invisible to the target.
BlackHalfDragon 07-21-07, 02:39 PM	I'd say that if you hide and arent seen and can get close enough to do the stabby ness (or shoot) in the next round (which would probably allow another chance at being spotted) you can get the sneak in
Dheran 07-21-07, 08:02 PM	I'd say that if you hide and arent seen and can get close enough to do the stabby ness (or shoot) in the next round (which would probably allow another chance at being spotted) you can get the sneak in That's almost what the Move between Cover rule (in Complete Adventurer) says. You're limited to moving your Hide ranks, in feet, away from cover/concealment while still staying hidden.
KrisTheGreat 07-24-07, 10:48 PM	there is an alternate use of the hide skill that allows you to move from one point of cover to another i would employ this use to attempt to sneak in behind your foe and knife him in the back like it was in the good old second edition days one thing that is often forgoten in play is that you cant hide while you are being observed or when there is not cover or concealment many players attempt to use the hide skill to hide in plain sight