Hiding during a 5-foot step [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hiding during a 5-foot step [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nazrat
09-17-07, 11:19 AM Can a hide check be done as part of a 5-foot step? This is assuming the player has Hide in Plain Sight and the required shadowy conditions exist on the battlefield, of course.

Our DM says that hiding can only be done as part of a move action, and since a 5-foot step isn't technically a move action, it can't be done.

In the PHB under the description for the Hide skill, however, it doesn't say what kind of action it requires. In fact the exact wording is "Ususally none. Normally you make a hide check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action." The only exception listed is hiding immediately after a ranged attack.

Now, my arguement is that since a 5-foot step IS movement, just not a move action, you should be able to hide after making a full melee attack and stepping back. There might be a penalty associated with it, but can still be done. (again, this is assuming a character with HIPS and there are shadows present).

Are there any specific rules or examples in any of the books to support either argument?
wizardguy2003
09-17-07, 03:52 PM As a DM, in my games, I would rule it is possible. Assuming the conditions are right, as you said they were, the only deciding factor would be your location in connection with the shadows you plan on using. If they are within 5 feet, then sure why not. Course there is the problem that, even though the attacker can't see you, they know you are most likely still within your "square" so to speak. This is the case unless you move as well, but then you'd need something that gives you another move action, since you just used it up with the step.
Dheran
09-17-07, 04:48 PM Our DM says that hiding can only be done as part of a move action, and since a 5-foot step isn't technically a move action, it can't be done. Tell your DM that the Hide skill description is poorly organized, but there are many options other than a move action to Hide:It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Also, the Hide description, as you pointed out, refers to movement rather than a move action. And here's what the rules say about a 5' step:Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. So it's right there; a 5' step is movement, and thus meets one of the several requirements for the Hide skill. And since a 5' step is movement there's no penalty applied to the check.
Rymosrac
09-17-07, 05:28 PM Interesting that the rules say practically nothing about hiding while remaining still.
bkdubs123
09-17-07, 10:25 PM I thought the use of nearly all skills were standard actions... is there no hard and fast entry stating that?

Barring that, I could see myself giving penalties to Hiding as part of a 5 ft step (probably -10), but allowing it.

I would also rule that it shouldn't provoke attacks of opportunity since it is apparently done as a part of the 5ft step which doesn't provoke.

Lastly I would like to say that Hiding in combat is not well done in 3.5. lol
Nazrat
09-18-07, 01:09 AM Thank you for your replies! It seems like the 3.5 rules for hiding really are a lot more confusing than they have to be. You've given me some good material to argue my point when we meet up again next Sunday. (Fortunately he said he was willing to keep an open mind about the issue until I had a chance to research it a bit more.)

If nothing else, I'll put forth bkdubs123's suggestion as a happy medium.
Dheran
09-18-07, 11:43 AM I thought the use of nearly all skills were standard actions... is there no hard and fast entry stating that? No, there's not. In fact, very few skills take a standard action to use. Here's the entire list:
A Bluff check made to feint in combat or create a diversion to hide is a standard action.
Escaping from a grapple or pin using Escape Artist is a standard action.
Providing first aid, treating a wound, or treating poison with Heal is a standard action.
You can Intimidate an opponent in combat as a standard action.
Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check.
Throwing a grappling hook with Use Rope is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
You're probably confused because of this, from the Combat chapter of the PH:Use Skill

Most skill uses are standard actions, but some might be move actions, full-round actions, free actions, or something else entirely. In the limited context of combat skill use, a greater percentage of those take standard actions to use. You don't use Craft or Gather Information in combat, for instance; but you might use Heal to bind a wound or Sleight of Hand to steal an enemy Cleric's holy symbol. Overall, though, most skills take something other than a standard action to use.
bkdubs123
09-19-07, 05:22 PM Right, I meant in combat since that's really the only time you need to worry about what sorts of actions you're taking.
1 ton ghost
09-20-07, 01:58 PM given your hypothetical: full attack, 5ft. back and Hide...

it's feasible if your stepping back into cover, like Darkness. problem is darkness/fog/etc. reduce movement so you can't 5ft. into or through them. it's usually a X2 movement.

just 5ft'ing around a corner (1/2 cover) isn't enough, enemy knows you're still there. you'd need to create a diversion to Hide and that's Bluff's province.

now, if you attack, move out (drawing an AoO) and get some distance between your and enemy w/ cover in between, yeah, you're home free, otherwise...
that doesn't even touch on Move Silently
Dheran
09-20-07, 03:20 PM given your hypothetical: full attack, 5ft. back and Hide...

it's feasible if your stepping back into cover, like Darkness. You missed something important.Can a hide check be done as part of a 5-foot step? This is assuming the player has Hide in Plain Sight and the required shadowy conditions exist on the battlefield, of course. As long as shadows are nearby, no cover or concealment (which is what Darkness provides) is required.Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nazrat 09-17-07, 11:19 AM	Can a hide check be done as part of a 5-foot step? This is assuming the player has Hide in Plain Sight and the required shadowy conditions exist on the battlefield, of course. Our DM says that hiding can only be done as part of a move action, and since a 5-foot step isn't technically a move action, it can't be done. In the PHB under the description for the Hide skill, however, it doesn't say what kind of action it requires. In fact the exact wording is "Ususally none. Normally you make a hide check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action." The only exception listed is hiding immediately after a ranged attack. Now, my arguement is that since a 5-foot step IS movement, just not a move action, you should be able to hide after making a full melee attack and stepping back. There might be a penalty associated with it, but can still be done. (again, this is assuming a character with HIPS and there are shadows present). Are there any specific rules or examples in any of the books to support either argument?
wizardguy2003 09-17-07, 03:52 PM	As a DM, in my games, I would rule it is possible. Assuming the conditions are right, as you said they were, the only deciding factor would be your location in connection with the shadows you plan on using. If they are within 5 feet, then sure why not. Course there is the problem that, even though the attacker can't see you, they know you are most likely still within your "square" so to speak. This is the case unless you move as well, but then you'd need something that gives you another move action, since you just used it up with the step.
Dheran 09-17-07, 04:48 PM	Our DM says that hiding can only be done as part of a move action, and since a 5-foot step isn't technically a move action, it can't be done. Tell your DM that the Hide skill description is poorly organized, but there are many options other than a move action to Hide:It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Also, the Hide description, as you pointed out, refers to movement rather than a move action. And here's what the rules say about a 5' step:Take 5-Foot Step You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. So it's right there; a 5' step is movement, and thus meets one of the several requirements for the Hide skill. And since a 5' step is movement there's no penalty applied to the check.
Rymosrac 09-17-07, 05:28 PM	Interesting that the rules say practically nothing about hiding while remaining still.
bkdubs123 09-17-07, 10:25 PM	I thought the use of nearly all skills were standard actions... is there no hard and fast entry stating that? Barring that, I could see myself giving penalties to Hiding as part of a 5 ft step (probably -10), but allowing it. I would also rule that it shouldn't provoke attacks of opportunity since it is apparently done as a part of the 5ft step which doesn't provoke. Lastly I would like to say that Hiding in combat is not well done in 3.5. lol
Nazrat 09-18-07, 01:09 AM	Thank you for your replies! It seems like the 3.5 rules for hiding really are a lot more confusing than they have to be. You've given me some good material to argue my point when we meet up again next Sunday. (Fortunately he said he was willing to keep an open mind about the issue until I had a chance to research it a bit more.) If nothing else, I'll put forth bkdubs123's suggestion as a happy medium.
Dheran 09-18-07, 11:43 AM	I thought the use of nearly all skills were standard actions... is there no hard and fast entry stating that? No, there's not. In fact, very few skills take a standard action to use. Here's the entire list: A Bluff check made to feint in combat or create a diversion to hide is a standard action. Escaping from a grapple or pin using Escape Artist is a standard action. Providing first aid, treating a wound, or treating poison with Heal is a standard action. You can Intimidate an opponent in combat as a standard action. Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. Throwing a grappling hook with Use Rope is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. You're probably confused because of this, from the Combat chapter of the PH:Use Skill Most skill uses are standard actions, but some might be move actions, full-round actions, free actions, or something else entirely. In the limited context of combat skill use, a greater percentage of those take standard actions to use. You don't use Craft or Gather Information in combat, for instance; but you might use Heal to bind a wound or Sleight of Hand to steal an enemy Cleric's holy symbol. Overall, though, most skills take something other than a standard action to use.
bkdubs123 09-19-07, 05:22 PM	Right, I meant in combat since that's really the only time you need to worry about what sorts of actions you're taking.
1 ton ghost 09-20-07, 01:58 PM	given your hypothetical: full attack, 5ft. back and Hide... it's feasible if your stepping back into cover, like Darkness. problem is darkness/fog/etc. reduce movement so you can't 5ft. into or through them. it's usually a X2 movement. just 5ft'ing around a corner (1/2 cover) isn't enough, enemy knows you're still there. you'd need to create a diversion to Hide and that's Bluff's province. now, if you attack, move out (drawing an AoO) and get some distance between your and enemy w/ cover in between, yeah, you're home free, otherwise... that doesn't even touch on Move Silently
Dheran 09-20-07, 03:20 PM	given your hypothetical: full attack, 5ft. back and Hide... it's feasible if your stepping back into cover, like Darkness. You missed something important.Can a hide check be done as part of a 5-foot step? This is assuming the player has Hide in Plain Sight and the required shadowy conditions exist on the battlefield, of course. As long as shadows are nearby, no cover or concealment (which is what Darkness provides) is required.Hide in Plain Sight (Su) A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.