Hold the Line feat...query? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hold the Line feat...query? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Ao
08-07-07, 10:57 PM I was wondering about the Hold the Line feat (pg 100 of Complete Warrior) whether you get this attack of opportunity if the target is charging you.

The descriptor is:
You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten. Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved.

As far as i can tell it does countwhen they are charging you, which is a pretty mean feat...
StruckingFuggle
08-07-07, 11:01 PM Uhm ... that's clearly what it does, and the only thing it does.

What (else) did you think it did?
Lord_Ao
08-07-07, 11:08 PM Uhm ... that's clearly what it does, and the only thing it does.

What (else) did you think it did?

Haha, i thought it might be just for if they charge through your threatened area, like if they charge someone next to you in ranks/files...i thought that could have something to do with the name 'hold the line'. I think it does work for that situation as well.
Hehe, I was pretty sure but I just wanted a confirmation...Thanks mate.
StruckingFuggle
08-07-07, 11:41 PM Oh, no problem.

And for clarification: If their charge brings them into a square you threaten, no matter who the target of their charge is, they provoke an AoO from you.

(what's unclear, to me, is if they also provoke a second AoO for leaving that square...)
dman11235
08-07-07, 11:47 PM It wouldn't provoke two AoOs because it is the same movement triggering them both.
Morwen
08-08-07, 12:03 AM Haha, i thought it might be just for if they charge through your threatened area, like if they charge someone next to you in ranks/files...i thought that could have something to do with the name 'hold the line'. I think it does work for that situation as well.
Hehe, I was pretty sure but I just wanted a confirmation...Thanks mate.

Well, if they charge through (that is, both entering and leaving) your threatened area, you get an AoO even without the feat :)
StruckingFuggle
08-08-07, 12:12 AM It wouldn't provoke two AoOs because it is the same movement triggering them both.

But it's two different actions / opportunities that trigger it.

One comes from them entering a square you threaten, due to Hold the Line.
The second comes from them leaving a square you threaten, as per normal AoO rules.
Tsuul
08-08-07, 01:35 AM My take on Hold the Line (HtL)
--The hold the Line attack happens immediately before the charge attack, meaning if the charger charges through your threatened area and continues through other non-threatened [by you] squares to his target, your attack from HtL does not go off.

--An opponent exiting through multiple squares provokes multiple AoOs. One for each square threatened by you. However you may only take advantage of one such attack. The entire movement is one action.

--The "normal" portion of HtL shows what rule HtL is altering. That is to say, when you may take the movement based AoO. On entering instead of exiting; under a specific condition. It does not change the Charge action to provoke an AoO.

HtL doesn't seem to change the limit on the number of AoOs you can make in a round upon a single action that causes one.
aelryinth
08-08-07, 01:23 PM Hold the Line grants you an attack on a Charger who enters an area you threaten. It goes off before he gets an attack.

If he then leaves a square you threaten, you do indeed get another attack.

Combined with Steadfast boots/readied action against a charge, you could very easily get off 3 double dmg attacks on a charging opponent before he lands one blow.

Yes, this is why you don't charge the guy with the braced glaive or longspear.

-==Aelryinth
ToastedAmphibian
08-08-07, 05:19 PM Even better... Monk with reach weapon and hold the line :}
Enter reach square AoO Exit reach square AoO Enter Unarmed strike Square AoO You get 3 AoO even withought a readied action. If your reach weapon has a spike on the end, adn you set it agisnt teh charge, do you get 4 attacks, and do they do double damage?
StruckingFuggle
08-08-07, 05:57 PM Even better... Monk with reach weapon and hold the line :}

Or a non-monk with IUS or Armor Spikes or a Spiked Chain...

However:

Enter reach square AoO Exit reach square AoO Enter Unarmed strike Square AoO You get 3 AoO even withought a readied action.

Based on how leaving two of someone's threatened squares with a single move only provokes one AoO, I'd think that entering two squares they threaten with a charge does not provoke more than one AoO from Hold the Line.

I think the max you can get is three attacks - Set Against A Charge, Hold the Line, and Exiting A Threatened Square - and only the Set Against A Charge would deal double damage.
ToastedAmphibian
08-08-07, 08:08 PM I dont have my book with me, but i thought it said that Whenever a charging oponnent enters a square you threaten, he provokes an AoO. Did it say in there smoewhere that doing it repeatedly in one round would only provoke one attack?
Tsuul
08-09-07, 10:38 AM Did it say in there smoewhere that doing it repeatedly in one round would only provoke one attack?That is the general rule for AoOs. Only one attack per offense. Unless HtL says otherwise. [edit: also the feat limits you to just one attack by telling you when that AoO is to be made.]

Which forces you to look at what is causing the AoO for HtL. Is it the movement, or the charge? If it is the movement, then you should only get one AoO on that. If it is the charge, then you can take a AoO for for movement as well as for HtL.
The "Normal" portion of the feat says it is a movement based AoO...

IMO, the feat is written poorly.
StevenO
08-09-07, 01:54 PM I dont have my book with me, but i thought it said that Whenever a charging oponnent enters a square you threaten, he provokes an AoO. Did it say in there smoewhere that doing it repeatedly in one round would only provoke one attack?
Entering a Threatened space does not normally trigger an AoO, exiting that space does.

My take on HtL is that the Charge triggers the AoO which gets taken at the first opportunity (when it enters a threatened space). If the charger then moves out of that space that triggers a movement based AoO. Note that characters are still subject to normal limits on number of AoO they can make during a round.
StruckingFuggle
08-09-07, 10:38 PM On the question of "does it change when you make an AoO, or give you a second one", I wonder - is "taking your one AoO when a charging foe enters a threatened square instead of when they leave it for that movement" really worth a feat?
MorganD
08-10-07, 08:37 AM a really nasty combination is hold the line, improved sunder and an adamantine two handed weapon.

Anyone charging you provokes an Aoo, which you can choose to make as a sunder attack against their weapon (and with improved sunder and a 2-h weapon thats at a +8 bonus to hit) and is resolved before they actually get to attack you.

Sure you might not be able to kill the target in a single strike but severely reduce his damage potential? Yup.
StruckingFuggle
08-10-07, 02:22 PM Sure you might not be able to kill the target in a single strike but severely reduce his damage potential? Yup.

Throw in the Combat Brute tactical feat, and make sure it's a reach weapon. Either Ready vs. Charge, or have those boots that make you always in that state.

When they charge, merely attack when they enter your square, and when they leave it (before they get to attack, unless they have a reach weapon), attack their weapon (for double damage, since it's braced, right?), which will likely shatter it ... and then punch through their weapon to hit them for double damage, too. :)
Red_Decker
08-10-07, 09:12 PM How about this nice little combo.

Dodge, combat reflexes, hold the line, sidestep charge. You get +4 to ac vs. Charge attacks and get to attack them before they attack you then again if they miss you.

http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Dheran
08-10-07, 10:46 PM I know this is getting off-topic, but is there a feat or class ability like Hold the Line that gives you an AoO on normal movement entering a square you threaten (instead of charging movement)? Now that would be a feat I'd like!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Ao 08-07-07, 10:57 PM	I was wondering about the Hold the Line feat (pg 100 of Complete Warrior) whether you get this attack of opportunity if the target is charging you. The descriptor is: You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten. Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved. As far as i can tell it does countwhen they are charging you, which is a pretty mean feat...
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 11:01 PM	Uhm ... that's clearly what it does, and the only thing it does. What (else) did you think it did?
Lord_Ao 08-07-07, 11:08 PM	Uhm ... that's clearly what it does, and the only thing it does. What (else) did you think it did? Haha, i thought it might be just for if they charge through your threatened area, like if they charge someone next to you in ranks/files...i thought that could have something to do with the name 'hold the line'. I think it does work for that situation as well. Hehe, I was pretty sure but I just wanted a confirmation...Thanks mate.
StruckingFuggle 08-07-07, 11:41 PM	Oh, no problem. And for clarification: If their charge brings them into a square you threaten, no matter who the target of their charge is, they provoke an AoO from you. (what's unclear, to me, is if they also provoke a second AoO for leaving that square...)
dman11235 08-07-07, 11:47 PM	It wouldn't provoke two AoOs because it is the same movement triggering them both.
Morwen 08-08-07, 12:03 AM	Haha, i thought it might be just for if they charge through your threatened area, like if they charge someone next to you in ranks/files...i thought that could have something to do with the name 'hold the line'. I think it does work for that situation as well. Hehe, I was pretty sure but I just wanted a confirmation...Thanks mate. Well, if they charge through (that is, both entering and leaving) your threatened area, you get an AoO even without the feat :)
StruckingFuggle 08-08-07, 12:12 AM	It wouldn't provoke two AoOs because it is the same movement triggering them both. But it's two different actions / opportunities that trigger it. One comes from them entering a square you threaten, due to Hold the Line. The second comes from them leaving a square you threaten, as per normal AoO rules.
Tsuul 08-08-07, 01:35 AM	My take on Hold the Line (HtL) --The hold the Line attack happens immediately before the charge attack, meaning if the charger charges through your threatened area and continues through other non-threatened [by you] squares to his target, your attack from HtL does not go off. --An opponent exiting through multiple squares provokes multiple AoOs. One for each square threatened by you. However you may only take advantage of one such attack. The entire movement is one action. --The "normal" portion of HtL shows what rule HtL is altering. That is to say, when you may take the movement based AoO. On entering instead of exiting; under a specific condition. It does not change the Charge action to provoke an AoO. HtL doesn't seem to change the limit on the number of AoOs you can make in a round upon a single action that causes one.
aelryinth 08-08-07, 01:23 PM	Hold the Line grants you an attack on a Charger who enters an area you threaten. It goes off before he gets an attack. If he then leaves a square you threaten, you do indeed get another attack. Combined with Steadfast boots/readied action against a charge, you could very easily get off 3 double dmg attacks on a charging opponent before he lands one blow. Yes, this is why you don't charge the guy with the braced glaive or longspear. -==Aelryinth
ToastedAmphibian 08-08-07, 05:19 PM	Even better... Monk with reach weapon and hold the line :} Enter reach square AoO Exit reach square AoO Enter Unarmed strike Square AoO You get 3 AoO even withought a readied action. If your reach weapon has a spike on the end, adn you set it agisnt teh charge, do you get 4 attacks, and do they do double damage?
StruckingFuggle 08-08-07, 05:57 PM	Even better... Monk with reach weapon and hold the line :} Or a non-monk with IUS or Armor Spikes or a Spiked Chain... However: Enter reach square AoO Exit reach square AoO Enter Unarmed strike Square AoO You get 3 AoO even withought a readied action. Based on how leaving two of someone's threatened squares with a single move only provokes one AoO, I'd think that entering two squares they threaten with a charge does not provoke more than one AoO from Hold the Line. I think the max you can get is three attacks - Set Against A Charge, Hold the Line, and Exiting A Threatened Square - and only the Set Against A Charge would deal double damage.
ToastedAmphibian 08-08-07, 08:08 PM	I dont have my book with me, but i thought it said that Whenever a charging oponnent enters a square you threaten, he provokes an AoO. Did it say in there smoewhere that doing it repeatedly in one round would only provoke one attack?
Tsuul 08-09-07, 10:38 AM	Did it say in there smoewhere that doing it repeatedly in one round would only provoke one attack?That is the general rule for AoOs. Only one attack per offense. Unless HtL says otherwise. [edit: also the feat limits you to just one attack by telling you when that AoO is to be made.] Which forces you to look at what is causing the AoO for HtL. Is it the movement, or the charge? If it is the movement, then you should only get one AoO on that. If it is the charge, then you can take a AoO for for movement as well as for HtL. The "Normal" portion of the feat says it is a movement based AoO... IMO, the feat is written poorly.
StevenO 08-09-07, 01:54 PM	I dont have my book with me, but i thought it said that Whenever a charging oponnent enters a square you threaten, he provokes an AoO. Did it say in there smoewhere that doing it repeatedly in one round would only provoke one attack? Entering a Threatened space does not normally trigger an AoO, exiting that space does. My take on HtL is that the Charge triggers the AoO which gets taken at the first opportunity (when it enters a threatened space). If the charger then moves out of that space that triggers a movement based AoO. Note that characters are still subject to normal limits on number of AoO they can make during a round.
StruckingFuggle 08-09-07, 10:38 PM	On the question of "does it change when you make an AoO, or give you a second one", I wonder - is "taking your one AoO when a charging foe enters a threatened square instead of when they leave it for that movement" really worth a feat?
MorganD 08-10-07, 08:37 AM	a really nasty combination is hold the line, improved sunder and an adamantine two handed weapon. Anyone charging you provokes an Aoo, which you can choose to make as a sunder attack against their weapon (and with improved sunder and a 2-h weapon thats at a +8 bonus to hit) and is resolved before they actually get to attack you. Sure you might not be able to kill the target in a single strike but severely reduce his damage potential? Yup.
StruckingFuggle 08-10-07, 02:22 PM	Sure you might not be able to kill the target in a single strike but severely reduce his damage potential? Yup. Throw in the Combat Brute tactical feat, and make sure it's a reach weapon. Either Ready vs. Charge, or have those boots that make you always in that state. When they charge, merely attack when they enter your square, and when they leave it (before they get to attack, unless they have a reach weapon), attack their weapon (for double damage, since it's braced, right?), which will likely shatter it ... and then punch through their weapon to hit them for double damage, too. :)
Red_Decker 08-10-07, 09:12 PM	How about this nice little combo. Dodge, combat reflexes, hold the line, sidestep charge. You get +4 to ac vs. Charge attacks and get to attack them before they attack you then again if they miss you. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Dheran 08-10-07, 10:46 PM	I know this is getting off-topic, but is there a feat or class ability like Hold the Line that gives you an AoO on normal movement entering a square you threaten (instead of charging movement)? Now that would be a feat I'd like!