Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 03-21-07, 07:48 AM	Hi Guys, I know that you need 'cover' or 'concealment' to effectively Hide, but I'm playing a roguish character for the first time and am wondering how to deal with this in the practical sense. We often walk through dungeons, forests or the occasional town/city. Cover: - I can imagine with forestst that I ask my DM, where the next tree is, so I can Hide (but can't anybody do it that way?) - going through a dungeon, I cant think of something better than hiding behind a cover (but can't anybody do it that way?)...or maybe behind a pile of dirt (but can't anybody do it that way?) - going through a city, i can think of the occasional alley or streetcart to hide behind (but again...can't anybody do it that way?) Concealment: - You need shadows to hide in. Does 'shadows' = 'concealment'? - can you hide in a perfectly smooth corridor that has no illumination then the torch you have? - can you hide in a perfectly smooth alley that has minor lighting from the sky above? - you could hide beyond the 20ft reach of an average torch, but again; can't anybody do that to creatures that doesn't have darkvision? - how can you hide within the range of someones 60ft darkvision? So in other words, do I constantly need to ask my DM if there's concealment? How to deal with this in a practical way? I'm concerned that our group will end up discussing the 'logic' behind Hiding; making it an almost unusable Skill (we have a trackrecord in that) I'm probably missing something :D Thanks !
TygerTyger 03-21-07, 09:36 AM	Its pretty situational and really up to the DM at any given juncture. As a general rule though, hiding does not usually mean that you MUST have cover or even concealment to accomplish it. Its a matter of sneaking up or sneaking around. Everyone knows that one guy that just moves quietly, always surprises the hell out of you when he says "Hi!" and the like. D&D style hiding is often just that. Moving in a manner so as to not draw attention to yourself, taking advantage of available cover, carefully only moving when others are looking away, sticking to the shadows, crouching down out of ordinary sight lines (or clinging to the ceiling out of ordinary sight lines!) etc. That said, there are some things you can't do, or can only do with huge penalties. Your aforementioned "torch you are carrying" example is one. Carrying a torch applies a huge penalty to Hide, assuming you can find a DM who doesn't just tell you "No... you're carrying a light! You can't hide!" Ditto your completely smooth alley example. There's simply no where to hide, and no shadows to take advantage of. Hide in D&D can be no more than a minor skill that anybody can do, or it can border on the supernatural. Up to your GM and game style really. In general, its good to RP it as taking advantage of the natural cover, shadows and distractions though.
Inigo Carmine 03-21-07, 10:00 AM	Why do you keep asking "but can't anybody do it that way"? Are you using a battlemat? That makes it easier to determine the best places to hide (the places with the most concealment/cover. Also, cover/concealment isn't a blanket status you have, it's determined with respect to each individual observer. It's kind of like "West". You can never be West, but you can be West of something. So try and position yourself in places that have cover/concealment. Concealment: - You need shadows to hide in. Does 'shadows' = 'concealment'? You don't need shzdows to hide in, but they are usually a good form of concealment. Keep in mind that what is shadows to you might not be to someone else though. What is shadowy illumination to a human is usually clearly lit to an elf (lowlight vision), and if you're within 60 ft of a dwarf, those shadows won't do you any good at all (darkvision). - can you hide in a perfectly smooth corridor that has no illumination then the torch you have? Not without some form of special ability. The torch will illuminate you removing any concealment from darkness. Even if someone doesn't have line of sight to you, torchlight is usually a giveaway that someone is there. Imagine walking into a dark room, except you see torchlight coming from behind a couch. While you can't see what's behind there, you have a pretty good idea that something is there. - how can you hide within the range of someones 60ft darkvision? Get concealment or cover. Shadows/darkness aren't the only form of concealment. Smoke, fog, heavy undergrowth, etc all provide concealment as well.
Nicholas the Paladin 03-21-07, 10:44 AM	Why do you keep asking "but can't anybody do it that way"?. I'm trying to acces the wokings and worth of this skill. I'm trying to find out what a Rogue with a high Hide-skill can do 'more' than an average character. Are you using a battlemat? That makes it easier to determine the best places to hide (the places with the most concealment/cover.. We use battegrids. But's that's just squares. So when I want to know where i can Hide I need my DM to point out what all the terrainfeatures are. That could be tiresome. Also, cover/concealment isn't a blanket status you have, it's determined with respect to each individual observer. It's kind of like "West". You can never be West, but you can be West of something. So try and position yourself in places that have cover/concealment. . Okay, I get it. That makes it a little bit tougher. You don't need shzdows to hide in, but they are usually a good form of concealment. Keep in mind that what is shadows to you might not be to someone else though. What is shadowy illumination to a human is usually clearly lit to an elf (lowlight vision), and if you're within 60 ft of a dwarf, those shadows won't do you any good at all (darkvision).. that was indeed what i was wondering about. I always considered Hiding an ability to fool the eye by 'playing with the shadows': that's what i remembered from 2nd edition times. I also remember from 2nd edition that 'darkvision' wasn't enough to reveal a hidden creature. Not without some form of special ability. The torch will illuminate you removing any concealment from darkness. Even if someone doesn't have line of sight to you, torchlight is usually a giveaway that someone is there. Imagine walking into a dark room, except you see torchlight coming from behind a couch. While you can't see what's behind there, you have a pretty good idea that something is there.. That's not what i meant. * I'm* not the one holding the torch. It's the *other guy* holding the torch, I'm trying to hide from. So what you're saying is that: - you can hide in an area with darkness (no torch etc) - you can't hide in darkness when a creature has darkvision to penetrate it Isn't that what every character can do or can't do? So, what is the use of the Hide-skill then? Get concealment or cover. Shadows/darkness aren't the only form of concealment. Smoke, fog, heavy undergrowth, etc all provide concealment as well. These forms of concealment usually give you an eyesight of 5ft max. So basically anybody can Hide under these conditions. Its pretty situational and really up to the DM at any given juncture. As a general rule though, hiding does not usually mean that you MUST have cover or even concealment to accomplish it. Its a matter of sneaking up or sneaking around. Everyone knows that one guy that just moves quietly, always surprises the hell out of you when he says "Hi!" and the like.. I get the idea, but I don't understand the mechanic. D&D style hiding is often just that. Moving in a manner so as to not draw attention to yourself, taking advantage of available cover, carefully only moving when others are looking away, sticking to the shadows, crouching down out of ordinary sight lines (or clinging to the ceiling out of ordinary sight lines!) etc.. Again, I get the idea, but it seems this requires the DM to give either a lot of info, or me constantly asking: "can I Hide?" Hide in D&D can be no more than a minor skill that anybody can do, or it can border on the supernatural. Up to your GM and game style really. In general, its good to RP it as taking advantage of the natural cover, shadows and distractions though.. Okay, maybe i'm asking too much. But untill now, it seems a bit worthless. I can imagine hiding in a spot. But as soon I want to move, I'm in trouble. besides that: I hear people talking about the Supernatural-ability 'Hide in plain sight'. From what I've heard it's a pretty nifty ability. But what I'm getting is that it just makes it possible for you Hide under more liberal conditions (when people are watching you). But Hiding is still Hiding. Again, maybe (also with HIPS) i'm expecting too much, but I'm starting to get a bit dissapointed.:(
TygerTyger 03-21-07, 10:56 AM	Well, from a mechanic point of view, the answer to your "What can a person with Hide do that others can't?" question is simple... they can actually oppose another's spot check. Now granted, anyone can do this, Hide can be used untrained, with a base Dex adjustment. The difference is that those with high Hide scroes can freeze in place, or move really slowly to avoid being caught. So can anyone you say? True, but these sneaky buggers are better at it than anyone else. Example: Rogue (with Hide of 15, wearing only very light armor), Fighter (no Hide skill and wearing full plate) and a wizard (no Hide skill and wearing his snazzy robes) are sneaking up on the guard (Spot of 10) at the edge of the palace wall. They are creeping through the bushes that the king has foolishly allowed to grow there. The guard, savvy to this is occasionally looking into the bushes. All three characters are doing the same thing... they are hiding. However, the guard is unlikely to spot the rogue (who is going to roll, on average at least 5 higher than the guard), will probably spot the wizard (because the guard is going to role 10 more than him on average) and the fighter may as well be standing up and screaming at the top of his lungs! :) Why? Because the rogue has the training (i.e. the skill points) to move carefully through the bushes without getting snagged on the thorns, knows how to move quickly and efficiently in those circumstances, and when to just freeze and not move at all (the half movement penalty). The other two are just winging it. Yes, if the cover was absolute / complete, there'd be NO difference. The guard can's see through the ten foot high wall that the characters are on the other side of. That's what Listen is for! :)
BW0222 03-21-07, 11:01 AM	Nicholas the Paladin, - I can imagine with forestst that I ask my DM, where the next tree is, so I can Hide (but can't anybody do it that way?) If you are attempting to hide and there is cover between you and someone trying to spot you, then there is an opposed hide vs. spot check. If there was complete cover (you are behind a closed doorway, in a pit, etc., then no hide checks would be needed -- you couldn't see them and they couldn't see you. Anyone may attempt to hide (with cover or concealment). The skill may be used untrained, it is just not that likely to work without ranks. Cover would only work if there were trees between you and them. Your DM will rule how dense the trees are and therefore how class/far away folks could be and still have cover. When you get close enough, the DM might have draw out where each of you are and draw in the actual trees. You're movement (while hiding) might be limited by the location of the trees. For example, if there were in a 30' radius clearing, you likely couldn't get closer than that without breaking cover and being seen. - going through a dungeon, I cant think of something better than hiding behind a cover (but can't anybody do it that way?)...or maybe behind a pile of dirt (but can't anybody do it that way?) Anything which provides cover or concealment. Boxes, crates, reasonably-sized furnature, partially open doors, etc. - going through a city, i can think of the occasional alley or streetcart to hide behind (but again...can't anybody do it that way?) A crowd of people, a recessed doorway, around the corner of a street, a horse, etc. In some cases, where there isn't a lot of cover, you might be unable to move while hiding. For example, if there is a lone barrel in the middle of an empty room, a kobold hiding behind the barrel likely can't move and remain hidden. If there were lots of boxes and barrels in the room, the kobold could move from one box to another. General rule of thumb is that you must end each turn in cover or concealment. Concealment: - You need shadows to hide in. Does 'shadows' = 'concealment'? Concealment is any case where they have a miss chance due to concealment. Shadowy illuminations provides a 20% miss chance, so normally yes. Total darkness provides a 50% miss chance. So, assuming there was a torch at an intersection shedding 20' illumination... * 40'+ away from the torch you would have total concealment and you wouldn't need a hide check. * 20'-40' away you would be in shadowly illumination and could hide. * under 20' away you would be in normal light and could not hide. However, creatures with low light vision can see twice as far with a light source, so the torch (for them) would provide 40' light, and shadowy to 80'. If you tried to hide 30' away from the torch, they could see you automatically. An owl or something might be able to see extremely long distances. A creature with darkvision can see 60' in the dark reguardless of light. Thus, you couldn't hide anywhere within 60' unless something else provided cover or concealment -- fog, boxes, corners, etc. - can you hide in a perfectly smooth corridor that has no illumination then the torch you have? If you are carrying a light source, you can't hide. You are automatically visible -- and often at extreme distances. Without the light source, it would be totally dark. You have total concealment and no hide check is needed. Creatures with normal or low-light vision could not see you. Those with darkvision could not see you beyond 60' and would see you automatically within 60'. Of course if you don't have darkvision it could be hard for you to move down that hallway. - can you hide in a perfectly smooth alley that has minor lighting from the sky above? DMs call. Most likely yes. Chances are that the lightning only provided temporary illumination and it isn't necessarily centered directly overhead -- i.e. the alley walls might still provide shadows. I'd require a hide check each time the lightning went off. However, other rounds it would be pitch black and no hide checks would be needed. - you could hide beyond the 20ft reach of an average torch, but again; can't anybody do that to creatures that doesn't have darkvision? - how can you hide within the range of someones 60ft darkvision? You can't. Against darkvision, darkness or shadowy illumination do not provide you any concealment. You'd need cover or some other source of concealment. If there is a half orc guard on the street at night, you can't get within 60' of him without being spotted unless there is cover (doorways, buildings, crates, carts, crowds, etc.) or another form of concealment (fog, smoke, clothes lines with sheets, etc.). So in other words, do I constantly need to ask my DM if there's concealment? How to deal with this in a practical way? Yes. However, sources of concealment and cover are ususual obvious -- fog, smoke, tall grass, etc. Typically, if you have problems seeing them clearly, then they will have problems seeing you. Using darkness as a source of concealment is risky. You need to consider if the creature might have darkvision or low-light and you need to worry about your ability to see. In all cases, there are special senses like blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, and scent which you need to be careful of. I'm concerned that our group will end up discussing the 'logic' behind Hiding; making it an almost unusable Skill (we have a trackrecord in that) It isn't unusable. You just need to be careful when you are using it. In most cases it is pretty hard to get with 5' or 10' of something, but it is easy to get within 60' or so in most dungeons, outdoor terrains, and cities. You just need to plan routes where you can move around a corner, behind something, etc. Just don't rely on darkness unless you have to. Outdoors there is almost always cover or concealment -- trees, tall grass, brush, rocks, river beds, lakes/ponds, etc. In cities there is typically a street corner, doorway, cart, crowd of people, or something every few hundred feet. In most dungeons there are typically covers, pillars, funature within rooms, etc. to hide behind.
Nicholas the Paladin 03-21-07, 11:20 AM	Thanks for the input till so far. I'm wondering what this skill will be worth for my Beguiler and our party Rogue. I'll get the 'invisibility' spell from 4th level, so if I'm willing to spend a spell, this 'll be better than trying to hide.
TygerTyger 03-21-07, 11:28 AM	Yup, in general, Invisibility and its cousins beat Hide skills in a race. Especially because they don't have any movement restrictions on them. You are just as invisible running at full tilt as you are moving at half speed. The catch is those opponents who have See Invisible or True Seeing up. Those guys don't even notice that you are invisible, while your Hide using companion can still sneak up on them.
jadehawk 03-21-07, 12:13 PM	Its really quite simple. If you hide behind cover or within concealment you may roll a hide check which is opposed by spot checks (at -1/10 feet) and you roll such a check for every movement you make. As soon as a hiding character enters an encounter, all targets are allowed one free spot check. After that, all potential spotters must use a move equivalent to keep attempting to spot hidden characters. Large trees, tall grass, low walls, large obstacles, and the likes all count as cover and the spaces that these things are in should be indicated on your battlemat (and your DM should be well read on terrain effects on the battlemat as it is well discussed in the DMG). Shadows, displacement, fogs, smoke, and the likes count as concealment. Typically, you may move from between points of cover and concealment in a number of squares that don't provide cover and concealment equal to half your ranks in hide. That is, if you have 10 ranks in hide, you can move from behind a tree (cover) to beyond the 20ft of torch light into its shadowy illumintation (concealment), so long as the tree and the shadows are no more than 5 squares apart. Being invisible does not grant you the ability to roll hide checks, but it does help quite a bit. If you are in plain sight, though invisible, characters require a spot DC 20 to notice you and DC 40 to pin point your square. If you are invisible and also have an alternative means of cover or concealment you may roll hide checks at a +20 bonus while moving and a +40 bonus while standing still. This bonus is due to the invisibility. Note that if your character has a ring of invisibility and a cloak of displacement, you may roll hide checks all the time with the invisibility bonus to your hide. And if you are any type of rogue, your hide check will be nearly maxed out, you will have a superior dexterity, and therefore will be nearly impossible to spot. As is, I've got a level 20 rogue who always takes 10 on hide checks and can get a result of 100 (when standing still in shadows). Take 10: 10 Ranks: 23 Dexterity Bonus: 11 Armour: Improved Shadow: 10 Size: 4 Invisibility (when still): +40 If in shadows (some other magic item I think): +2 Total: 100
Mirtek 03-21-07, 12:51 PM	(but can't anybody do it that way?). Yes, anybody can do that. The rogue has no special hiding powers. With many skillpoints to spend and hide as a class skill a rogue usually has more ranks in hiding than other classes, but he has no special ability that the others do not have. I'm trying to find out what a Rogue with a high Hide-skill can do 'more' than an average character. Yes, he can get higher results on his hide check. ;) Hiding in D&D doesn't work like in basically all D&D computer games. You don't "push the hide button and become invisible". If you want to become able to do that, there are certain prestige classes that offer supernatural powers (like the shadowdancer who can indeed "push the hide button and become invisible" as long as there is shadow near him)
Inigo Carmine 03-21-07, 01:12 PM	Few things to add: 1) Darkvision doesn't make you unable to hide from that person, it just makes you unable to use shadows/darkness to hide in from that person. All other methods still work just the same. 2) Invisibility doesn't mean you're automatically hidden. While it is effectively this at lower levels of the game, at higher levels it can be different. What it really does is give you effective (total) concealment to allow you to make hide checks even in the open, and gives you a large bonus to said hide checks (off the top of my head +20 bonus when moving, +40 when stationary). When coupled with greater invisibility, this can matter. Attacking gives you a -20 to your hide check, negating the +20 bonus for being invisible. If you don't have some ranks in hide, then anyone with a half-way decent spot check is going to be able to see you. I am not familiar with the beguiler, but invisibility the spell is a limited resource. It only lasts so long and must be recast (at the expense of spells per day). You can try to hide as often as you like with the skill. Also, this touches on another aspect of stealth: move silently. invisibility makes you harder to see, but it doesn't make you any harder to hear. You'll need move silently to be able to effectively make people completely unaware of you. 3) I'm not sure, but it seems like you might not understand skills and ranks. The more ranks you put into something, the better you are at it. While anyone can hide, you won't be very good at it unless you put ranks into it. Anyone can perform heart surgery on you as well, but since I don't have any ranks in surgery (or medicine of any kind) I'm probably not going to be your first choice. ;)
jadehawk 03-21-07, 01:18 PM	Few things to add: 2) Invisibility doesn't mean you're automatically hidden. While it is effectively this at lower levels of the game, at higher levels it can be different. What it really does is give you effective (total) concealment to allow you to make hide checks even in the open, and gives you a large bonus to said hide checks (off the top of my head +20 bonus when moving, +40 when stationary). Invisibility does not allow you to automatically roll hide checks. Check the "there, not there" section that WoTC has to say about this. However, in plain sight it forces characters to roll spot checks to notice you (DC 20 to notice, 40 to pinpoint) and this spot check can only be made within 30 feet. However, if you have an additional form of hiding, like behind cover or in a fog, you can roll a hide check with the bonuses you have indicated.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-21-07, 03:27 PM	That's not what i meant. * I'm* not the one holding the torch. It's the *other guy* holding the torch, I'm trying to hide from. ( This may or may not be related to any inquiries you have on this matter, but you can indeed ambush someone carrying a torch (assuming they don't have low-light/darkvision). You hide more than 20 ft away, within the shadowy illumination, and then prompty take your suprise round standard action as a Partial Charge (assuming your movement is sufficient); this being legal because you're limited to one action. If you're a rogue, stab his kidneys and go from there. ;)
Gorlick_Da_Consumer 03-21-07, 04:59 PM	I always have my players make both Movesilently and hide checks, and i allow people with Hide as a skill to use regular grass, and such. plus i remember reading somewere that if u have a light sorce your darkvision is usless, so someone with a 60ft darkvision wouldnt be useing a torch, cause then he could only see 20ft. and that lowlight vision only alows you to see more with little light, think cats, they get thouse huge retnas (sorry about my spelling) so they can take in the little light, and with light you have shadows, they dont dispel them.
jadehawk 03-21-07, 06:37 PM	I always have my players make both Movesilently and hide checks, and i allow people with Hide as a skill to use regular grass, and such. plus i remember reading somewere that if u have a light sorce your darkvision is usless, so someone with a 60ft darkvision wouldnt be useing a torch, cause then he could only see 20ft. and that lowlight vision only alows you to see more with little light, think cats, they get thouse huge retnas (sorry about my spelling) so they can take in the little light, and with light you have shadows, they dont dispel them. Of course, hand in hand with hiding (opposed by spot) is moving silently (opposed by listen), which is obviously not affected by invisibility. But listening to someone doesn't have the same advantage of spotting. You may know someone is around, and what direction, but you don't know where exactly. Also, as a rogue or sneak of any sort gets up in level they should likely just get a silence box or something (magic item open up the box and it silences a certain area as per the spell silence)...voila, instant move silent check infinity.
Inigo Carmine 03-21-07, 09:33 PM	plus i remember reading somewere that if u have a light sorce your darkvision is usless,so someone with a 60ft darkvision wouldnt be useing a torch, cause then he could only see 20ft. It's possible you've read this somewhere, but it's still incorrect. and that lowlight vision only alows you to see more with little light, think cats, they get thouse huge retnas (sorry about my spelling) so they can take in the little light, and with light you have shadows, they dont dispel them. They don't dispel shadows, no, but lowlight lowers the required amount of light to be able to see something clearly. (Barring magical darkness effects) What is normally shadowy illumination to a human is as bright to an elf as normal light. [u]Using a torch in otherwise total darkness:[/b] Normal vision: 0-20' illumination, 20'-40' Shadowy illumination, >40' total darkness Lowlight vision: 0-40' illumination, 40'-80' shadowy illumination, >80' total darkness Darkvision: 0-20' illumination, 20-40' shadowy illumination/darkvision, 40'-60' darkvision, >60' total darkness
warbird106 03-28-07, 08:50 PM	Hmm... I thought of an extremely good use for the shadowdancers ability to hide in plain sight as long as there is a shadow within 10 ft...You get a small piece of metal that has a little overhang that makes a little shadow...They say there must be shadow, but they never say how much...
Zanny 03-31-07, 05:29 PM	I'm kind of surprised that nobody has talked about this too much yet, but you can make your own hiding places. One of my favorite items with my old rogue was the bag of flour (hell yeah!). Ever try playing hid and go seek with flour in your eyes? It's pretty difficult. Depending on what you use (flour, smoke bomb, etc.) you could also just drop it on the ground and create your own thick fog, providing yourself with enough cover to either move around in combat (say, a flat, smooth hallway with some poor unfortunate toach-carrying goblin?) or make a hasty advance to the rear. Another fun trick: I'm pretty sure that tower shields, when stuck in the ground like a mini-wall, provide enough cover to hide behind. In one of my old campaigns, my friend and I played a pair of halflings that did the "cup game" trick with tower shields, hide checks, and tumble checks. Good times. :)
Nicholas the Paladin 04-02-07, 02:53 AM	Hmm... I thought of an extremely good use for the shadowdancers ability to hide in plain sight as long as there is a shadow within 10 ft...You get a small piece of metal that has a little overhang that makes a little shadow...They say there must be shadow, but they never say how much...;) I think you're stretching the rules. HIPS might be a supernatural ability, but *some* logic must be applied.