how does rake works? [Archive] - Wizards Community

how does rake works? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nebula
03-09-07, 10:55 AM monster manuals says about rake that it's an extra natural attack to be used against grappled foe, and that "a monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake - it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."

but for example in the description of the tiger the same manuals says that it can rake when it success in using improved grab, and even when charging, using pounce special attack, even it's not in a grapple.

isn't it a contraddiction?
tarkin
03-09-07, 11:00 AM When you grab someone, that is begining to grapple them.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Pounce is not quote as clear.

It was intended to actually be a kind of grapple. That is what real lions do - they Pounce and land on the creature they are attacking, then use all four limbs to attack them.

But the description of Pounce is not that of a grapple.
Trevhippy
03-09-07, 11:09 AM Also, in the turn following the establishment of a grapple you may rake twice without the -4 penalty of attacking in a grapple. Not sure if you were unclear on that or not...

--Trev
Nebula
03-09-07, 12:14 PM maybe my question was unclear.

i read that i can use rake only if i have begun the round in the grapple, i can't if this is the round i'm beginning the grapple in.

but, about the tiger, i read that
i can use rake even if i have just begun grappling with improved grab
i can use rake even i'm charging

how can i? doesn't rake description said i couldn't?
Nebula
03-09-07, 12:18 PM ok, erase all, now i understood.
feraltibbit
03-09-07, 12:39 PM Acc. 2 the "Savage Species FERAL template and the numerous books w/monsters in them, it's real simple. If it SAYS "claw, claw, bite, rake, rend"; "claw, claw, rend"; or claw, claw, rake"; or claw, claw, bite, rend", that's exactly what it can do. THIS is where "RAW" comes in.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-09-07, 12:44 PM The distinction is that Pounce does two things- lets you make a full-attack at the end of a charge, and it also use your Rake attacks despite not being in a grapple yet. As Tarkin said, it is an attack that essentially involves landing on top of your victim and clawing everything you can at once. Unless you take advantage of Improved Grab, you are going to fall off after mauling.

The Improved Grab lets you hang on with a grapple check, and then the normal use of Rake comes in. You get two attacks at no penalty against the victim's AC. Most cats will either kill their prey instantly with its full-attack because it is tiny, or will never win a grapple check because it is much bigger than it. So the Rake allows it to continue dealing damage effectively by attacking against AC instead of grappling, while controlling it. Creatures that are supposed to be very hazardous to only smaller creatures have Constrict instead, so they continue to try to dominate with grapple checks.
ScipioX
03-09-07, 02:47 PM Its the difference between general rules and specific exceptions.

Generally, rake cannot be used the round you start a grapple. The tiger has a special version of it that creates an exception to the general rule.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nebula 03-09-07, 10:55 AM	monster manuals says about rake that it's an extra natural attack to be used against grappled foe, and that "a monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake - it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn." but for example in the description of the tiger the same manuals says that it can rake when it success in using improved grab, and even when charging, using pounce special attack, even it's not in a grapple. isn't it a contraddiction?
tarkin 03-09-07, 11:00 AM	When you grab someone, that is begining to grapple them. Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake. Pounce is not quote as clear. It was intended to actually be a kind of grapple. That is what real lions do - they Pounce and land on the creature they are attacking, then use all four limbs to attack them. But the description of Pounce is not that of a grapple.
Trevhippy 03-09-07, 11:09 AM	Also, in the turn following the establishment of a grapple you may rake twice without the -4 penalty of attacking in a grapple. Not sure if you were unclear on that or not... --Trev
Nebula 03-09-07, 12:14 PM	maybe my question was unclear. i read that i can use rake only if i have begun the round in the grapple, i can't if this is the round i'm beginning the grapple in. but, about the tiger, i read that i can use rake even if i have just begun grappling with improved grab i can use rake even i'm charging how can i? doesn't rake description said i couldn't?
Nebula 03-09-07, 12:18 PM	ok, erase all, now i understood.
feraltibbit 03-09-07, 12:39 PM	Acc. 2 the "Savage Species FERAL template and the numerous books w/monsters in them, it's real simple. If it SAYS "claw, claw, bite, rake, rend"; "claw, claw, rend"; or claw, claw, rake"; or claw, claw, bite, rend", that's exactly what it can do. THIS is where "RAW" comes in.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-09-07, 12:44 PM	The distinction is that Pounce does two things- lets you make a full-attack at the end of a charge, and it also use your Rake attacks despite not being in a grapple yet. As Tarkin said, it is an attack that essentially involves landing on top of your victim and clawing everything you can at once. Unless you take advantage of Improved Grab, you are going to fall off after mauling. The Improved Grab lets you hang on with a grapple check, and then the normal use of Rake comes in. You get two attacks at no penalty against the victim's AC. Most cats will either kill their prey instantly with its full-attack because it is tiny, or will never win a grapple check because it is much bigger than it. So the Rake allows it to continue dealing damage effectively by attacking against AC instead of grappling, while controlling it. Creatures that are supposed to be very hazardous to only smaller creatures have Constrict instead, so they continue to try to dominate with grapple checks.
ScipioX 03-09-07, 02:47 PM	Its the difference between general rules and specific exceptions. Generally, rake cannot be used the round you start a grapple. The tiger has a special version of it that creates an exception to the general rule.