How many animals under "handle animal" skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

How many animals under "handle animal" skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lokenarin
05-22-07, 06:47 PM How many animals can you effectivly have or control using the handle animal skill.
My players wants to know is it a max HD in total animals or in 1 animal.
Unholy_King
05-22-07, 06:56 PM It is probably an infinite number, but each animal would require a MA to be told to attack something.
Shadowfax7
05-22-07, 09:07 PM With the fact that it takes a Move Action to "handle an animal" (or a free action if it's an Animal Companion), theoretically you could handle 3 animals, one being your Animal Companion, in a round.

However, there is no limit to the number of animals you can have. Just a limit of one Animal Companion.

Barring PRCs like the Beast Lord.
Darth Sephiroth
05-22-07, 09:33 PM You can add another with Wild Cohort. You could also probably get away with ordering multiple ones to do a simple action like ordering a pack of trained dogs to seek or attack something.
chucky
05-23-07, 10:30 AM So let me get this straight. If i have 5 dogs with me it would take 5 move actions to say kill?
Frugal
05-23-07, 12:28 PM So let me get this straight. If i have 5 dogs with me it would take 5 move actions to say kill?

I think the argument being that if you have a trained pack of dogs it's not much/any more work to command them all to do the same action than give an order to 1 of them.

I'd be inclined to add a cumulative penalty to the skill for additional animals. Say something like -1 per additional animal being given the same command, maybe more, I just came up with that off the top of my head.
AtmaWeapon
05-23-07, 01:44 PM 5 animals, 5 move actions. If you can "command a pack of dogs" with 1 action, then what's the point of even playing levels 1-5?

"Ok, Jim, your turn."
"I order my pack of dogs to attack"
"Ok Ted, you're up"
"I order my pack of dogs to attack"
"*sigh*, Nate?"
"Dogs."
Enderlaand
05-23-07, 02:00 PM I'd say that the limit is dependant on circumstance and DM discretion, assuming that it's never been 'ruled' anywhere official.

I'd say that a move action would cover handling a team of workhorses that are harnessed together. Likewise with sled dogs, etc. An instruction given to a usually 'loner' animal (i.e. snake) would be a move action, a bunch of snakes would require a bunch of moves.

Commanding a 'pack' of dogs is a tough case. They're trained to work together, and it's also instincual for them to do so. I'd be okay with them being handled as a move action for the whole pack (maybe with a limit of 5 animals) but that would incur some kind of penalty (-5 to -10). Also, they'd have to all be given the same order for this to work.
mtbOgre
05-23-07, 02:28 PM Commanding a 'pack' of dogs is a tough case. They're trained to work together, and it's also instincual for them to do so. I'd be okay with them being handled as a move action for the whole pack (maybe with a limit of 5 animals) but that would incur some kind of penalty (-5 to -10). Also, they'd have to all be given the same order for this to work.

Game balance aside, a pack of dogs is high maintenance... very high maintenance. I would require a handle animal check each day to keep them in check. Dogs are prone to fighting within the pack and are instinctive hunters. Getting them to attack would be fairly easy but getting them to stand down no so much, once a pack starts getting into a frenzy it would be very hard to control. Getting a pack of dogs to stay? Not very likely, lots of distractions within the pack. If a dog in the pack dies introducing new replacement dogs to the pack would be another challenge and would likely involve more fighting within the pack as the new dogs finds it's place in the pecking order.

Beyond that, how do you feed them? Each dog is going to require a certain amount of meat protein on a daily basis. Do you spend every other day making a survival check with the pack to see if they hunt up enough food or just let them eat monsters. To a certain extent they are going to eat monsters in any case, dogs eat everything. Are Zombies rotted enough to be toxic?

Handling a pack of dogs goes way beyond one skills check as they are entering combat.
Enderlaand
05-25-07, 01:38 PM Handling a pack of dogs goes way beyond one skills check as they are entering combat.

That may be true, but I don't think that you're right across the board.

A dog sled team is essentially a pack of dogs. They're very well trained, and they see the driver as one of them, the 'alpha dog' to be specific. A well-trained pack of dogs also keeps itself in check, preventing the need to 'handle' them constantly.

Granted, a character wanting to control a pack of dogs for either sledding or for combat, will have very little time left for anything else, making it an unweildy choice. It's still worth talking about, so that Druids and Rangers can use Wild Empathy to try to control a pack of dogs encountered. They probably shouldn't try to keep the dogs as pets, though.
mtbOgre
05-25-07, 01:49 PM That may be true, but I don't think that you're right across the board.

A dog sled team is essentially a pack of dogs. They're very well trained, and they see the driver as one of them, the 'alpha dog' to be specific. A well-trained pack of dogs also keeps itself in check, preventing the need to 'handle' them constantly.

Sled Dogs are strapped in place and quite limited in what they can do, handling a pack of dogs that are loose is an entirely different scenario.
lint trap
05-25-07, 02:02 PM Sled Dogs are strapped in place and quite limited in what they can do, handling a pack of dogs that are loose is an entirely different scenario.

Probably an act requiring the "Mob" template from the DMG II.
Enderlaand
05-25-07, 02:52 PM Sled dogs don't live their entire lives harnessed up. There's a lot of the day that they are free to run, and they're not tied together. That's the time that I was talking about.
mtbOgre
05-25-07, 03:22 PM Sled dogs don't live their entire lives harnessed up. There's a lot of the day that they are free to run, and they're not tied together. That's the time that I was talking about.
Sure, but what typical tasks beyond staying near camp do the owners require of the entire pack? Staying near the pack is instinct and doesn't require much training.

It's not impossible to get a pack of dogs to do something, it just takes quite a bit more effort to get the pack focused on any single task. The more members there are in a pack the more likely an individual is to do his own thing, chase after squirrels, fight with each other, run from combat, continue combat when told to stand down (this would be particularly difficult to get a pack to do), etc... The more complex the environment the more likely it is to occur. Also, if the character is distracted or interacting with the rest of the group (say while treasure is being distributed) then he's not managing his pack and members are likely to wander or to eat that poisonous monster they just killed.

Also consider, getting a pack of dogs into a city, any situation that requires stealth, how do you handle a corridor wide pit, non-confrontational encounters with animals or unusual creatures.
Shadowfax7
05-25-07, 06:19 PM I suggest that the pack of dogs (or whatever) are trained with a new Animal Handling trick, lets call it maybe Pack Command.

It would allow a pack of animals trained with this trick to accept the same command (using a move action or free action as required) given by the handler without requiring tre handler to command them separately.

I say a DC 15 to teach each animal the trick.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokenarin 05-22-07, 06:47 PM	How many animals can you effectivly have or control using the handle animal skill. My players wants to know is it a max HD in total animals or in 1 animal.
Unholy_King 05-22-07, 06:56 PM	It is probably an infinite number, but each animal would require a MA to be told to attack something.
Shadowfax7 05-22-07, 09:07 PM	With the fact that it takes a Move Action to "handle an animal" (or a free action if it's an Animal Companion), theoretically you could handle 3 animals, one being your Animal Companion, in a round. However, there is no limit to the number of animals you can have. Just a limit of one Animal Companion. Barring PRCs like the Beast Lord.
Darth Sephiroth 05-22-07, 09:33 PM	You can add another with Wild Cohort. You could also probably get away with ordering multiple ones to do a simple action like ordering a pack of trained dogs to seek or attack something.
chucky 05-23-07, 10:30 AM	So let me get this straight. If i have 5 dogs with me it would take 5 move actions to say kill?
Frugal 05-23-07, 12:28 PM	So let me get this straight. If i have 5 dogs with me it would take 5 move actions to say kill? I think the argument being that if you have a trained pack of dogs it's not much/any more work to command them all to do the same action than give an order to 1 of them. I'd be inclined to add a cumulative penalty to the skill for additional animals. Say something like -1 per additional animal being given the same command, maybe more, I just came up with that off the top of my head.
AtmaWeapon 05-23-07, 01:44 PM	5 animals, 5 move actions. If you can "command a pack of dogs" with 1 action, then what's the point of even playing levels 1-5? "Ok, Jim, your turn." "I order my pack of dogs to attack" "Ok Ted, you're up" "I order my pack of dogs to attack" "sigh, Nate?" "Dogs."
Enderlaand 05-23-07, 02:00 PM	I'd say that the limit is dependant on circumstance and DM discretion, assuming that it's never been 'ruled' anywhere official. I'd say that a move action would cover handling a team of workhorses that are harnessed together. Likewise with sled dogs, etc. An instruction given to a usually 'loner' animal (i.e. snake) would be a move action, a bunch of snakes would require a bunch of moves. Commanding a 'pack' of dogs is a tough case. They're trained to work together, and it's also instincual for them to do so. I'd be okay with them being handled as a move action for the whole pack (maybe with a limit of 5 animals) but that would incur some kind of penalty (-5 to -10). Also, they'd have to all be given the same order for this to work.
mtbOgre 05-23-07, 02:28 PM	Commanding a 'pack' of dogs is a tough case. They're trained to work together, and it's also instincual for them to do so. I'd be okay with them being handled as a move action for the whole pack (maybe with a limit of 5 animals) but that would incur some kind of penalty (-5 to -10). Also, they'd have to all be given the same order for this to work. Game balance aside, a pack of dogs is high maintenance... very high maintenance. I would require a handle animal check each day to keep them in check. Dogs are prone to fighting within the pack and are instinctive hunters. Getting them to attack would be fairly easy but getting them to stand down no so much, once a pack starts getting into a frenzy it would be very hard to control. Getting a pack of dogs to stay? Not very likely, lots of distractions within the pack. If a dog in the pack dies introducing new replacement dogs to the pack would be another challenge and would likely involve more fighting within the pack as the new dogs finds it's place in the pecking order. Beyond that, how do you feed them? Each dog is going to require a certain amount of meat protein on a daily basis. Do you spend every other day making a survival check with the pack to see if they hunt up enough food or just let them eat monsters. To a certain extent they are going to eat monsters in any case, dogs eat everything. Are Zombies rotted enough to be toxic? Handling a pack of dogs goes way beyond one skills check as they are entering combat.
Enderlaand 05-25-07, 01:38 PM	Handling a pack of dogs goes way beyond one skills check as they are entering combat. That may be true, but I don't think that you're right across the board. A dog sled team is essentially a pack of dogs. They're very well trained, and they see the driver as one of them, the 'alpha dog' to be specific. A well-trained pack of dogs also keeps itself in check, preventing the need to 'handle' them constantly. Granted, a character wanting to control a pack of dogs for either sledding or for combat, will have very little time left for anything else, making it an unweildy choice. It's still worth talking about, so that Druids and Rangers can use Wild Empathy to try to control a pack of dogs encountered. They probably shouldn't try to keep the dogs as pets, though.
mtbOgre 05-25-07, 01:49 PM	That may be true, but I don't think that you're right across the board. A dog sled team is essentially a pack of dogs. They're very well trained, and they see the driver as one of them, the 'alpha dog' to be specific. A well-trained pack of dogs also keeps itself in check, preventing the need to 'handle' them constantly. Sled Dogs are strapped in place and quite limited in what they can do, handling a pack of dogs that are loose is an entirely different scenario.
lint trap 05-25-07, 02:02 PM	Sled Dogs are strapped in place and quite limited in what they can do, handling a pack of dogs that are loose is an entirely different scenario. Probably an act requiring the "Mob" template from the DMG II.
Enderlaand 05-25-07, 02:52 PM	Sled dogs don't live their entire lives harnessed up. There's a lot of the day that they are free to run, and they're not tied together. That's the time that I was talking about.
mtbOgre 05-25-07, 03:22 PM	Sled dogs don't live their entire lives harnessed up. There's a lot of the day that they are free to run, and they're not tied together. That's the time that I was talking about. Sure, but what typical tasks beyond staying near camp do the owners require of the entire pack? Staying near the pack is instinct and doesn't require much training. It's not impossible to get a pack of dogs to do something, it just takes quite a bit more effort to get the pack focused on any single task. The more members there are in a pack the more likely an individual is to do his own thing, chase after squirrels, fight with each other, run from combat, continue combat when told to stand down (this would be particularly difficult to get a pack to do), etc... The more complex the environment the more likely it is to occur. Also, if the character is distracted or interacting with the rest of the group (say while treasure is being distributed) then he's not managing his pack and members are likely to wander or to eat that poisonous monster they just killed. Also consider, getting a pack of dogs into a city, any situation that requires stealth, how do you handle a corridor wide pit, non-confrontational encounters with animals or unusual creatures.
Shadowfax7 05-25-07, 06:19 PM	I suggest that the pack of dogs (or whatever) are trained with a new Animal Handling trick, lets call it maybe Pack Command. It would allow a pack of animals trained with this trick to accept the same command (using a move action or free action as required) given by the handler without requiring tre handler to command them separately. I say a DC 15 to teach each animal the trick.