Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zelin 06-27-07, 10:47 AM	I'm curious how many people take feats like Alertness, Athletic, Deft Hands, etc? What about Skill Focus?
WackyOne 06-27-07, 10:53 AM	I take them as pre-reqs, mostly. Then again, I prefer my feats and my skills separated - I'm liable to take Open Minded or Able Learner if need be, but I don't really like - or see the point for - the +2/+2 (or even Skill Focus...)
Dalthbar 06-27-07, 10:56 AM	Skill focus can be useful for the right build, but not for the average character. I've played in games where the DM gives a "free" "+2 to 2 skills" feat since they're never taken any other time. I've also had some DMs do the same thing and let those two skills become class skills for your character - to add a bit more variety to the standard class list. Overall, I don't take them over actually useful feats unless they're pre-reqs.
Sajek 06-27-07, 11:01 AM	Same here. I only take as prerequisites or as flavor.
Zelin 06-27-07, 11:16 AM	I've also had some DMs do the same thing and let those two skills become class skills for your character - to add a bit more variety to the standard class list. That's kinda what we were thinking about doing. Were there any problems with it?
Dalthbar 06-27-07, 11:19 AM	That's kinda what we were thinking about doing. Were there any problems with it? Absolutely not - it allows a fighter to get a good spot or hide check and for players to give some personality to a character. We found this to not offer any real advantage or shift player's power at all. If you don't increase skill points, then there's really nothing unbalancing about it since all the characters gain the same benefit. You can get into some trouble if you allow someone to make up a feat (say "Persuasive" that gave +2 to diplomacy and UMD - the two most powerful skills), but even that won't be that big of an issue for most games, I'd assume.
Steely_Dan 06-27-07, 11:28 AM	I would only ever take Skill Focus (Truespeak).
foxtail 06-27-07, 12:26 PM	I generally agree with the above. Magical Aptitude is a great boon to an artificer, though; +2 to both the skills he needs to pull off his class abilities.
StevenO 06-27-07, 12:55 PM	There are generally four reasons to use those feats. 1. As a Prerequisite for something else. 2. Trying to get a truly abusive skill check in something. Few skills are worth the dedication but some try for super maxed Diplomacy or Bluff. 3. Used in a NPC. Often as filler or to help the character fit its roll. 4. Purely RPG reasons. "It fits my character." Sometimes DMs will give one freebie for this purpose. This can also cover a character's desire to use a non-class skill better although usually players just find out how to make it a class skill and put ranks into it instead.
lint trap 06-27-07, 05:40 PM	I've also had some DMs do the same thing and let those two skills become class skills for your character - to add a bit more variety to the standard class list. I use this houserule, and it works great. Now NPC Warriors can make decent sentries.
NeueRegel 06-27-07, 05:44 PM	I took skill focus "survival" just because I wanted my ranger to be the best tracker there ever was.
Tolby 06-27-07, 07:12 PM	There are generally four reasons to use those feats. 1. As a Prerequisite for something else. 2. Trying to get a truly abusive skill check in something. Few skills are worth the dedication but some try for super maxed Diplomacy or Bluff. 3. Used in a NPC. Often as filler or to help the character fit its roll. 4. Purely RPG reasons. "It fits my character." Sometimes DMs will give one freebie for this purpose. This can also cover a character's desire to use a non-class skill better although usually players just find out how to make it a class skill and put ranks into it instead. I put in a 5th one in that you allow a character who is putting points into a cross class skill to bump the level up some. A few of my fighter builds have taken Skill Focus Tumble to get a higher bonus. it about 6 levels of cross class skills.
mythSSK 06-27-07, 07:17 PM	I've had a rogue sneak who took the Stealthy feat to help max his Hide/Move Silently. --- I've been considering upping the bonus on thoose feats to +3/+3, and making skill focus +4 (or +5 even) and add the skill to your class skills; but I keep thinking that this might make them way too good for a skills-based character. Thoughts?
archerpwr 06-27-07, 07:22 PM	I've had a rogue sneak who took the Stealthy feat to help max his Hide/Move Silently. --- I've been considering upping the bonus on thoose feats to +3/+3, and making skill focus +4 (or +5 even) and add the skill to your class skills; but I keep thinking that this might make them way too good for a skills-based character. Thoughts? I doubt they would be unbalancing. Skill checks cannot really break the game (artificers being the exception).
TheDanishCartoonist 06-27-07, 07:31 PM	I took skill focus:Spellcraft once to get into 3.0 archmage...and I've gotten it as a bonus feat from master specialist...but that's about it. Feats are for improving combat abilities as far as I'm concerned, which is why I like skill tricks so much.
Centauri 06-27-07, 08:27 PM	I take them sometimes with certain multiclass characters, to make up for the loss of certain levels of skill increase or because the character's primary stat had to suffer for the concept.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-27-07, 09:15 PM	If they work well with my build, then yes. Ah, the joys of having a +40 Diplomacy modifier by level 9.
R4za 06-27-07, 09:28 PM	I doubt they would be unbalancing. Skill checks cannot really break the game (artificers being the exception). Spellcraft for Incantatrixes comes to mind. Still, even +5 from a feat won't really break the game there.
the_fenris_wolf 06-27-07, 09:37 PM	I would only takes those kind of feats if i were some kind of true spellcaster, cleric or artificer who rely on these skills to stay alive. Such as Heal which has helped the group many times. Personally i think thay are underpowered. Would rather take power attack or Alertness for a feat.
SALDAR 06-27-07, 10:53 PM	It depends upon what type of character you want to play. As you can see most people only take such feats as prerequisites because they prefer to enhance their combat capabilities with feats. This is understandable since 3.x is heavily combat focused. I do too if the character I'm playing is combat focused. I do have one character that is not focused on combat and every feat he has taken is a feat that boosts his skills in some manner. And yes, he is a rogue. Being able to do what he does better than anyone else is his focus. This actually proved humorous one night when the DM said make your open lock check. I rolled and said my check is a 50. The DM smirked and said "Remember, it's an antimagic effect so your magic doesn't help you. Now what is your check?" I looked back at him and said "50." He quit smirking, but made me explain how (16th level rogue rolled a 17).
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-28-07, 12:24 AM	I doubt they would be unbalancing. Skill checks cannot really break the game (artificers being the exception). Diplomacy disagrees with you.
Noodles2375 06-28-07, 12:33 AM	Skill focus can be useful for the right build, but not for the average character. I've played in games where the DM gives a "free" "+2 to 2 skills" feat since they're never taken any other time. I've also had some DMs do the same thing and let those two skills become class skills for your character - to add a bit more variety to the standard class list. Overall, I don't take them over actually useful feats unless they're pre-reqs. My DM does the same but with skill emphasis. If you take skill emphasis with any skill, you get the +3 and it is a permanent class skill for any class you take from thence forward. Its actually made us take skill emphasis with some regularity! FIghters who want access to tumble without picking up rogue levels or swashbuckler levels, fighters who want access to spot and listen as class skills, really now that I think about it it really helps fighters :)
pupilofyah 06-28-07, 03:30 PM	i have never used a skill buff feat on purpose (alertness because of having a familiar is it) but i recently found a PrC that require 2 of them (concetration and knowledge religion or arcana oh it is for a monk based PrC) but i really want the class so i am taking the feats. but this DM is allowing augment surgerys from some book he has and there is a mental surgery that gives you a feat (you have to meet all prereqs of course) for a mear 20,000 gp and 2 week recovery and the surg DC is 40 (I dont know what happens if the surgen messes up) but i think i will take the risk if i ever make enough gp.
RealSorceror 06-28-07, 03:35 PM	I would only ever take Skill Focus (Truespeak). Don't forget Skill Focus (Iajutsu). :D
BlackFiend 06-28-07, 04:36 PM	I would only takes those kind of feats if i were some kind of true spellcaster... Would rather take power attack or Alertness for a feat. Umm...Alertness is one of those feats.
Dheran 06-28-07, 08:59 PM	I generally play Rogues, and feats are much more dear to that class than skill points. Still, I did take Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) in a game where we got to use flaws from Unearthed Arcana. The character specialized in using wands: going invisible (Greater Invisibility) and then making touch attacks (Chill Touch, Vampiric Touch) with sneak attack damage added. With these two feats he had a guaranteed success on UMD checks to use wands at 8th level.
Radiun 06-28-07, 09:29 PM	Ahem Skill Focus (Perform [______]) Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Becaause we can't have the bard's Fascinate/Soothing Voice actually be within the realm of reason :D ( My DM and i agreed to make the checks (1d20 + 1/2 Diplomacy Modifier) for Soothing voice, and nothing's yet to make the save . Imagine if we played it by RAW :P )
MCage 06-28-07, 09:34 PM	The only time i remember taking one of those was for a friends campaign where she wanted us to start at 15, it was a Archivist and i just ran out of stuff to get and thought 'Hell might as well make it that much easyer to get those 35's'
navar100 06-28-07, 11:57 PM	The usefulness of these feats is as useful as the DM lets skills be useful.
Assasin4H4Re 07-09-07, 07:49 PM	My group decided to do a double to all skill affecting feats. Instead of 2/2 they do 4/4 and instead of 3 it increases to 6 for skill focus. Our campaign is kinda high powered though. so dont know if this helps.
Witch 07-09-07, 08:05 PM	My group decided to do a double to all skill affecting feats. Instead of 2/2 they do 4/4 and instead of 3 it increases to 6 for skill focus. Our campaign is kinda high powered though. so dont know if this helps. Say hi to Jim, the human rogue. Jim has 18 Dexterity, 4 ranks in hide, Skill Focus (Hide) and the +4/+4 feat for Hide. He has a +18 modifier. At level 1. Not a good idea.
Salla 07-09-07, 08:05 PM	In two situations: 1. It's a requirement for a Prestige Class I'm interested in, or 2. I'm in a core-only game and I ran out of feats I was actually interested in taking. :)
runestar 07-09-07, 10:29 PM	I wouldn't mind one which grants +2 to spellcraft and concentration checks.:)
NobodyRemembersThis 07-09-07, 11:26 PM	I'm curious how many people take feats like Alertness, Athletic, Deft Hands, etc? What about Skill Focus?When I play a PC? Every PC - if I try and optimize my character too mucb, I leave every PC I've ever played with in the dust. So, I build for flavor first, power second so as not to embarrass the rest of my group.
Polaris 07-10-07, 01:09 AM	Guys, You are forgetting Skill Focus: Concentration. This feat is extemely solid for any spellcaster (or psionic class) and for clerics and Gish builds is (IMHO) almost "must take". It gives you the ability to automatically cast defensively three levels sooner, and since it applies to any concentration check, it's a lot better than just that. Definately better than Combat Casting (and stacks with it as well). -Polaris
WackyOne 07-10-07, 02:30 AM	For Gishes SK:Conc isn't all that much - (depending on the build) the lion's share of the spell they cast when threatened are quickened/ channeled/ arcane striked/ spellstored and don't cause AoO. And they get high level spells (depending on the build, again) some levels later than a pure caster (3 levels delay = SK:Conc, as you will have the same DC to cast defensively... but have 3 more Conc ranks). Additionally, a number of Gish PrCs need Combat Casting as a pre-req - making SF:Conc overkill for defensive - and if someone damages you while casting, you are losing the spell anyway... but gishes have the habit of being Mirror Imaged, don't they? ;)
The.Vortex 07-10-07, 11:31 AM	The only +2/+2 feat I have ever seen taken was Alertness, allthough I was planing to take the Bluff/Diplomacy one for my Warlock/Beguiler that has never seen play... But about reworking the feats that they grant the skills as class skills: I would suggest to lower the bonus those feats give you if the skills haven't been class skills for youbefore taking the feat.. else a Fighter would get more out of Alertness than, say, a Ranger.. that would seem odd to me!
Leilond 07-10-07, 11:40 AM	They're so poor used that I changed most of them to +3/+3... and they're still not so used
Sunic_Flames 07-10-07, 04:05 PM	Never on their own merits, (as opposed to prereqs and such) and only know one player who did. It was because he didn't know better. I changed it to be effectively half a feat along with other lackluster feats, essentially meaning you get 1 good feat or 2 bad ones. Also, made them count the skills as always class skills. They see a little use outside of prereqs now.
Vaelan 07-11-07, 01:15 AM	I have never considered such a strong focus on a skill a substantial part of any of my characters. I tend to think in terms of objectives (I want to be sneaky) rather than mechanics (I want to max out Hide and Move Silently), so I usually come to the conclusion that ranks and a modest ability score modifier are sufficient. Diplomacy disagrees with you. Diplomacy can't break the game either, unless you use the Epic rules, in which case you deserve everything you reap.
Ghostwheel 07-11-07, 03:39 AM	I found that "Nimble Fingers" enabled my Dwarf Rogue/Fighter to maintain his trap-defusing skills at CR-appropriate level, and still maintain a significant melee presence. The search skill (cross-class for Fighter) left me few skill points for other things; but I still am proud of the fact that I was well able to fulfill my roll and have a lot of fun.
Witch 07-11-07, 05:55 AM	Diplomacy can't break the game either, unless you use the Epic rules, in which case you deserve everything you reap. Making every hostile creature turn helpful counts as breaking the game to me. Making it a fanatic worsens it, but it's not the root of the problem. Your belief that balance is thrown out of the window with the epic rules is misleading and incorrect.
Polaris 07-11-07, 12:25 PM	Making every hostile creature turn helpful counts as breaking the game to me. Making it a fanatic worsens it, but it's not the root of the problem. Your belief that balance is thrown out of the window with the epic rules is misleading and incorrect. Agreed. The problem is that if the bard (or other diplomat specialists but bards can get really sick diplomacy mods) is allowed to open her mouth and speak at all (even for 1 round), then RAW she can instantly "win" any encounter by making a roll against a fixed DC and the opposing creature has no way to resist it. We'd all be screaming like scalded cats if such a skill were allowed to be used this way against PCs. -Polaris
Johnny_Angel 07-11-07, 12:32 PM	Depending on my character, I take some of those feats quite often at low levels. If I'm a 1st or 2nd level rogue, nimble fingers can come in handy. I know it's only a +2, but there have been times when that extra 2 was the difference between opening a lock and not opening a lock. It can also be nice for boosting a cross class skill when you don't have enough skill points (or ranks available) to spend on a cross class skill that you want to boost. One DM I played with told me I was no longer allowed to play a bard character I had because I had both skill focus: diplomacy and the feat that gives you +2 on diplomacy checks. Sure, I couldn't fight very well; however, I didn't have to because I had a loyal group of followers who were willing to come to my aid in times of need.
Coffee_Dragon 07-11-07, 01:07 PM	At the risk of some derailage: I tend to think in terms of objectives (I want to be sneaky) rather than mechanics (I want to max out Hide and Move Silently), so I usually come to the conclusion that ... Having read the sentence this far, I was convinced it was going to continue: "... I'll want a skill feat or two." I know this doesn't make sense in light of your "not max out", but I'm so used to people saying flavour and mechanics can't be divorced and so if you want to "be sneaky" you had better take a "be more sneaky" feat to show it. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you are wrong or silly in any way, I just think it's so funny that the exact same premise can lead to opposite conclusions.
Salla 07-11-07, 01:17 PM	At the risk of some derailage: Having read the sentence this far, I was convinced it was going to continue: "... I'll want a skill feat or two." I know this doesn't make sense in light of your "not max out", but I'm so used to people saying flavour and mechanics can't be divorced and so if you want to "be sneaky" you had better take a "be more sneaky" feat to show it. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you are wrong or silly in any way, I just think it's so funny that the exact same premise can lead to opposite conclusions. Well, there's sneaky (some ranks in Hide/Move Silently), really sneaky (Maxed Hide/Move Silently), insanely sneaky (Maxed Hide/Move Silently with Stealthy), ridiculously sneaky (Maxed Hide/Move Silently with Stealthy and Skill Focus in Hide and Move Silently) and I'm So Sneaky I'm Not Sure I Even Exist (Whisper Gnome with maxed out Hide and Move Silently, Stealthy and Skill Focus in Hide and Move Silently). :)
key 07-11-07, 02:41 PM	I'm curious how many people take feats like Alertness, Athletic, Deft Hands, etc? What about Skill Focus? If I had like double the amount of feats available to me I would. But I prioritize improving my sneak attack odds/damage over adding to my skills. I figure my skills are good enough with the ranks I spend in them.
elondir 07-11-07, 02:45 PM	I never take them. Why waste a feat when a +2 competence bonus magic item only costs 400 gp?
Vaelan 07-11-07, 03:37 PM	Making every hostile creature turn helpful counts as breaking the game to me. Not only is this factually untrue, since mindless opponents exist, but it ignores the fact that a Diplomacy check requires an audience. Making it a fanatic worsens it, but it's not the root of the problem. Allowing Fanatic is very much the root of the only problem there is with the system. There may be more problems with the, quite frankly, moronic manner in which some people run the Diplomacy system entirely outside of the rules, but that isn't something to be held against the system. Your belief that balance is thrown out of the window with the epic rules is misleading and incorrect. I commented on the Epic rules for Diplomacy. You made claims about my beliefs about the entirety of the Epic rules. Your claim is unfounded and off-topic. . . . but I'm so used to people saying flavour and mechanics can't be divorced and so if you want to "be sneaky" you had better take a "be more sneaky" feat to show it. I don't try to divorce flavor and mechanics. I try to accurately reflect the flavor with the mechanics and I usually find that max ranks are an accurate reflection for PCs. Skill-boosting feats are generally reserved for people who have limited level advancement and focus on a few skills (Expert NPCs) so that they can seem like they're higher level, and thus more competent, than they really are. I'm So Sneaky I'm Not Sure I Even Exist (Whisper Gnome with maxed out Hide and Move Silently, Stealthy and Skill Focus in Hide and Move Silently). Don't forget levels of Ninja of the Crescent Moon, which allows you to move at your normal speed without a penalty to Move Silently and grants an ability that turns your natural state into hiding rather than... not hiding.