Post/Author/DateTime	Post
planesinger 04-21-07, 09:48 PM	My assassin, 2FTR/4MNK/4ASN (INA unarmed strike with ITWF), and my wizard change me become a "Eight-Headed Hydra", and I feint the monster, I can sneak attack (2d6) he 8 times with a stand action. question is: If I INV to studies the monster 3 rounds, and feint he, can I make 8 times death attack?:confused:
Empiro 04-21-07, 09:52 PM	My assassin, 2FTR/4MNK/4ASN (INA unarmed strike with ITWF), and my wizard change me become a "Eight-Headed Hydra", and I feint the monster, I can sneak attack (2d6) he 8 times with a stand action. No, you can't, so your next question is also moot. Feinting works on your next attack. Just because you can make multiple attacks with a single action, it doesn't change that your opponent is only flat footed for the first attack. From the SRD: Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Southernskies 04-21-07, 10:18 PM	With regard to feinting, make sure you note the different language regarding the targets status. If you feint the target is "denied their dex" not "flat-footed". Against classes with Uncanny Dodge, this is important, as it allows you to actually sneak/death attack them.
runestar 04-21-07, 10:20 PM	I agree with the former poster. You will want improved invis on your instead.:)
Empiro 04-21-07, 11:19 PM	With regard to feinting, make sure you note the different language regarding the targets status. If you feint the target is "denied their dex" not "flat-footed". Against classes with Uncanny Dodge, this is important, as it allows you to actually sneak/death attack them. Thanks for the correction. Yes, that's what I meant. I was playing too fast and loose with the language.
Novacat 04-22-07, 12:15 PM	My assassin, 2FTR/4MNK/4ASN (INA unarmed strike with ITWF), and my wizard change me become a "Eight-Headed Hydra", and I feint the monster, I can sneak attack (2d6) he 8 times with a stand action. question is: If I INV to studies the monster 3 rounds, and feint he, can I make 8 times death attack?:confused: Deciphering your English was difficult, so I'm not sure I understand the question, but here's my crack at it. 1. As a Hydra, you cannot use your Death Attack at all. Bolding added: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). Hydras cannot wield weapons, so they cannot use the assassin's Death Attack. 2. As the previous posters have stated, feinting against an enemy is ONLY good for one attack, no matter how many you can make in a round.
KurenaiYami 04-22-07, 01:05 PM	Novacat, Why do you think a Natural Weapon doesn't count as a weapon?
Empiro 04-22-07, 01:42 PM	You can make the argument that a "melee weapon" is a specific term in D&D, and that only weapons listed in the equipment section under the "melee weapons" qualify. It's similar to why Mage Armor doesn't count as armor for a monk even though it has the word "Armor" in its name. As for myself, I'm not sure which direction I'd rule as a DM.
KurenaiYami 04-22-07, 02:07 PM	You can make the argument that a "melee weapon" is a specific term in D&D, and that only weapons listed in the equipment section under the "melee weapons" qualify. You could make that argument, but then you'd have to back it up, and I can't think of any rules text that would do that. I could cite the Mage Armor not being Armor thing easily enough, but for weapons there are two categories: natural and manufactured. Look at the Monk's Unarmed Strike. It's treated as both.
Empiro 04-22-07, 02:14 PM	Actually, weapons have many categories: light, one-handed, two-handed, ranged, etc. Many of the categories are also orthogonal, so a weapon could be in many different categories. As for what exactly a melee weapon is, the glossary here has it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_meleeweapon&alpha= and it's defined to as: A handheld weapon designed for close combat. I'm not going to argue further, because it's a corner case in the rules that doesn't come into play often, and a DM ruling either way is fine with me.
KurenaiYami 04-22-07, 02:21 PM	Actually, weapons have many categories: light, one-handed, two-handed, ranged, etc. Many of the categories are also orthogonal, so a weapon could be in many different categories. As for what exactly a melee weapon is, the glossary here has it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_meleeweapon&alpha= and it's defined to as: I'm not going to argue further, because it's a corner case in the rules that doesn't come into play often, and a DM ruling either way is fine with me. Yeah, the rules seem hazy on it. In the same glossary though, under "natural weapons" the first sentence states that it is a weapon. So it's really contradictory if taken literally.
runestar 04-22-07, 10:27 PM	By Novacat's definition of weapon, it means that a creature using only natural weapons cannot benefit from the haste spell. However, wotc seems quite sure that it works(they advocated the spell for dragons, citing how useful an extra attack will be). A variety of epic monsters in the SRD have the blinding feat as well. Could you please comment on this?:)
Novacat 04-22-07, 11:07 PM	By Novacat's definition of weapon, it means that a creature using only natural weapons cannot benefit from the haste spell. However, wotc seems quite sure that it works(they advocated the spell for dragons, citing how useful an extra attack will be). A variety of epic monsters in the SRD have the blinding feat as well. Could you please comment on this?:) By a strict reading of the spell description, the Haste spell does not grant a creature an extra attack unless it is wielding a manufactured weapon. I cannot comment on WotC advocating the spell for dragons, as I've never seen such a statement. When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. As for the epic monsters getting the Blinding Speed feat... your point is lost on me. There are other benefits to the Haste spell, such as the extra movement, and the bonuses to attack rolls, Reflex saves, and AC.
runestar 04-22-07, 11:26 PM	I cannot comment on WotC advocating the spell for dragons, as I've never seen such a statement. It is in the draconomicon, under the article on useful spells for a dragon.:) I see the validity of your argument, in that blinding feat was never intended to confer full benefit on the epic monsters. Or it could simply be a holdover from 3.0 where haste functioned differently. It seems a little weird, I guess, but nothing I can fault you for.:)
Shadowmind64 04-22-07, 11:40 PM	Here's an idea, instead of splitting hairs and saying that a natural weapon isnt a weapon so that you can sound superior in your "grasp" of the RAW, you can use common sense and realize that a melee attack is a melee attack, regardless of if i stab you with a dagger or hit you with my claws. To answer the OP, you would only get to make one DA, but good luck studying them for 3 rounds without them realizing you are a threat. It's doable, but probably not worth the trouble :P
itwasntme 04-23-07, 12:05 AM	allso note that even if you had improve Fient attack that the target gets to had his BaB to his sense motive roll which is a double Ochy agest the person useing Fient Improve Invis or something on thouse lines is the way to go besides that eveything eles was allready answerd
Novacat 04-23-07, 01:07 AM	the target gets to had his BaB to his sense motive roll Not true. It's straight Bluff vs Sense Motive.
Dheran 04-23-07, 05:00 AM	Not true. It's straight Bluff vs Sense Motive. That hasn't been the case since 3.5 rules came out. Empiro already provided the quote, so just go back to the second post in this thread to correct your error.
stackmachine 04-23-07, 05:00 AM	Not true. It's straight Bluff vs Sense Motive. you might want to recheck that; empiro quoted the article concerning feint in the second post of this threat. it's all there already, so i wont post quotes here again. concerning the question: it's quiet a stretch concerning tactics; morphing into a hydra, sneaking up on somebody (easy doable being invisible), waiting three rounds... shouldn't simple sneak-attacking 8 times a bbeg do the trick? most threats covering the combat rating of a 8h-hydra will be torn to ribbons. assuming you do an extra 4d6 SA and hit with only half the heads, you do 4*(1d10+4+4d6) for an average of 94 damage, not counting in further damage-enhancers. you'll kill most stuff with this, so why bother?
Dheran 04-23-07, 05:05 AM	Hydras cannot wield weapons, so they cannot use the assassin's Death Attack. The phrase "melee weapon" is used solely to distinguish between ranged and melee attacks. Here's yet another example to confirm this:Q: When the Snap Kick feat mentions "When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons" is unarmed strike considered a "melee weapon" for the purposes of activating snap kick? A: Yes indeed, unarmed strike would count.