Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gevurah 12-29-07, 01:23 PM	Yesterday my party and me were fighting an hydra and two of our fighters had the improved sunder feat, so we decided to start chopping heads off but we differed from the master´s point of view of how we should apply the improved sunder feat; the master said that since the hydra´s heads were not weapons we should aim to the monsters AC, also he said that since it ain't a weapon we shouldn't get any bonuses from the feat or the fact that they were both using two handed weapons (a Greataxe and a Greatsword). Now the way i see it, the book states that in order to cut a head off you must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon, so instead of the monsters AC, we should make opposed attack rolls, also all bonuses that would apply to break a weapon must apply to the hydra´s heads as well, so it would be +4 for the feat, +4 bcz we were using a 2 handed weapon +str modifier, also the hydra should get a +8 in the sunder attempt bcz it was 2 sizes larger than the fighters (+12 if our party's wizard (a halfing) would attempt to cut the head off :P) So where m i wrong and why?:confused: Also i was wondering, if i make a sunder attempt and i don't have the improved sunder feat does all the heads get an attack of opportunity or just one? Thx.:)
Sinfire Titan 12-29-07, 01:40 PM	Use the creature's base AC. He got that right. You add all of your bonuses, unless they specifically state "Objects" as the only things you get the bonuses against. Improved Sunder, a Sundering weapon, and several other bonuses apply to cutting of a Hydra's head. Edit: The hydra gains no bonuses on it's AC for being larger than the person trying to break it. As to AoOs, the rules are very vague on how many a hydra gets. I would say it can make a number of AoOs in one round equal to the number of heads it has, and use the regular limit on the number of times it can hit one person for the same action.
Rulebook 12-29-07, 03:09 PM	ignore the heads, attack the body. easy enough.
Sinfire Titan 12-29-07, 04:10 PM	ignore the heads, attack the body. easy enough. Or, shove a Meteor Swarm down a throat. Works like a charm.
runestar 12-29-07, 09:20 PM	I interpret the line about it making AoOs to mean that with combat reflexes, it can make 2 AoOs/round, each of which is executed with all its heads (seeing as to how it can attack with all of them as a standard attack, only makes logical sense). Not that it mattered in my game though. The enlarged barb tripper with 20-ft just kept trip-locking the hydra (and using AoOs to alternate between trips and sunder attempts), and it never got to make a single attack. The rest just contributed what they could with ranged attacks/damage spells and we eventually chopped off all its heads.:P
FrostHammer 12-29-07, 09:31 PM	Or, a single Ray of Stupidity will off a Hydra.
Tordak 12-30-07, 12:32 AM	I think it is resolved like a regular sunder attempt, so I'd say you're right. Just like you said, you can sever a head with a sunder attempt. I don't see why you'd be using the hydras AC; the AC is for the body, the sunder special attack specifies that you and the hydra would make opposed attack rolls (which will replace the hydra's AC), you never have to make a successfull attack. That's why it says in the hydra's description you have to declare your intention before making the attack roll. If the mechanic of sunder was changed for the hydra they would have simply said so (except nothing is ever simple with the hydra :)). More so, if you go to the SRD and click on the sunder link in the hydra description it brings you straigh to the 'regular' sunder. I though the hydra would only get one attack at first but after long debates this is not a clear issue (well to me it isn't, but I might be slow :().
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 01:55 AM	COMBAT Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him. Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. A hydra can no longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties. Each time a head is severed, two new heads spring from the stump in 1d4 rounds. A hydra can never have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time, and any extra heads it gains beyond its original number wither and die within a day. To prevent a severed head from growing back into two heads, at least 5 points of fire or acid damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before the new heads appear. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage to the stump in the same blow in which a head is severed. Fire or acid damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps in addition to dealing damage to the hydra’s body. A hydra does not die from losing its heads until all its heads have been cut off and the stumps seared by fire or acid. A hydra’s body can be slain just like any other creature’s, but hydras possess fast healing (see below) and are difficult to defeat in this fashion. Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a head affects the body. Targeted magical effects cannot sever a hydra’s heads (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts. Fast Healing (Ex): Each round, a hydra heals damage equal to 10 + the number of its original heads. Skills: Hydras have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks, thanks to their multiple heads. A hydra has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. 1. Ok It would matter because he said they had imp sunder so no sunder attempt would provoke AoO from any heads. 2. Each heads gets an attacks on a AoO. Now normal only one AoO can be made per provoked action. The bolded above means that the hydra can use all it's heads per provoked action twice per round. IE: A five headed hydra can use 2 AoO per round. And on those 2 attempts can attack with all five head. this over rules the normal limit because all the hydra's bites count as one attack. 3. Just sundering wouldn't help unless you applied acid or fire or had acid or fire energy weapons. 4. It could be worse. Phrenic Lernaean-Multiheaded Tarrasque Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast (Psionic) Hit Dice: 106d10 +4346 (4929 hp) Initiative: +11 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 64 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +59 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 61 Base Attack/Grapple: +106/+ Attack: Bite +115 melee (4d8+17/15-20/×3) Full Attack: 30 bites +115 melee (4d8+17/15-20/×3) and 2 horns +113 melee (1d10+8) and 2 claws +113 melee (1d12+8) and tail slap +113 melee (3d8+8) Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, psi-like abilities, power resistance 116, immune to attack, vulnerable to head-loss, darkvision 90 ft Saves: Fort +95, Ref +57, Will +38 Abilities: Str 45, Dex 16, Con 93, Int 5, Wis 16, Cha 18 Skills: Feats: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Darkstalker, Power Attack, Improved Critical (bite), Weapon Focus (bite), Cleave, Great Cleave, Run, Ghost Attack, Psionic Meditation, Up the Walls, Fleet of Foot, Improved Bull Rush, Snatch, Multiattack, Martial Study (Vanguard Strike), Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), Martial Study (Burning Blade), Martial Study (Searing Charge), Awesome Blow Epic Feats: Improved Combat Reflexes, Dire Charge, Spellcasting Harrier, Superior Initiative, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Devastating Critical (bite), Epic Speed, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 32 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 107+ HD (Colossal) Level Adjustment: — The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons. The tarrasque cannot speak. Combat The tarrasque attacks with its claws, teeth, horns, and tail. The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Augmented Critical (Ex) The tarrasque’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Frightful Presence (Su) The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 67 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based. Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, the tarrasque must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round. Rush (Ex) Once per minute, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet. Swallow Whole (Ex) The tarrasque can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the tarrasque’s digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The tarrasque’s gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures. Carapace (Ex) The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance. Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 4939 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability. The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. Immune to Attack (Ex) A Tarrasque’s body is immune to attack. The only way to slay the Tarrasque creature is to sever all its heads. However, each time a head is severed, two new heads spring from the stump in 1d4 rounds. The Tarrasque may never have more than twice its original number of heads; any heads it gains beyond that number wither and die within a day. To prevent a severed head from growing back into two, at least 5 points of fire or acid damage must be dealt to the stump (AC 19) before the new heads appear. Spells such as disintegrate, finger of death, and slay living kill the Tarrasque if they succeed (but see Regeneration). If the spell deals damage on a successful save, the damage is directed against one of the creature’s heads. Severing a head requires hitting the creature’s neck (same AC as the Tarrasque itself) with a slashing weapon and dealing 164 damage. Psi-like Abilities (Ps) 3/day – defensive precognition, mind thrust, empty mind, intellect fortress, Psionic teleport 1/day – force screen, body adjustment, brain lock, aversion, Psionic blast, psychic crush, Psionic dominate, energy current, tower of iron will, fission, ultrablast Skills The tarrasque has a +58 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks. The Tarrasque also has a +2 bonus to Intimidate and Tumble checks. Of course it doesn't have the Combat Reflexes thing that the hydra does. Note: It is already immune to fire so just acid stops heads from come back.
strenoth 12-30-07, 11:11 AM	there's just one more template that tarrasque needs: Winged. :) or half-dragon :-P
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 01:07 PM	We were going half dragon at some point. Most likely the one that gives force breath effect and are still looking for acid immunity. But that is really off topic. I wouldn't want to fight it the way it is now. Hydras can be hard. I would go with the people that said skip sunder and attack the body. DON'T charge him. Use tumble if you have it. If you can surround it that would be good. Long range drain or damage ability spells works be good to.
FrostHammer 12-30-07, 05:34 PM	Actually, do charge the hydra, but tumble as you charge.
sapient 12-31-07, 08:59 AM	I actually liked the 3.0 rules better, where you could call a blow to a head and only had to do (total hp / number of heads) in damage to sever it. No sundering attempts that slow down the fight was needed. But I guess that it violated the principle that there should be no called shots and it made hydras a bit of a lesser threat since there was definitely less AoOs in the fight.