i know, Hide should be a simple thing... [Archive] - Wizards Community

i know, Hide should be a simple thing... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nighttree
10-08-07, 09:16 PM However, I'm playing a Skulk :D

Now Skulks are able to use the hide skill while being observed, without cover, and can move their full movement (and even run) without taking any penalties, so the question is this.

is there a "point of proximity" where I would no longer be "hidden" ?
Kouk
10-09-07, 02:32 AM However, I'm playing a Skulk :D

Now Skulks are able to use the hide skill while being observed, without cover, and can move their full movement (and even run) without taking any penalties, so the question is this.

is there a "point of proximity" where I would no longer be "hidden" ?

I am not seeing where it says a Skulk does not require Cover or Concealment, or that they can Hide while observed, only that the Peerless Camouflage (Ex) ability allows them to move at full speed without taking a penalty to Hide. I looked in both Races of Destiny and the Fiend Folio, where Skulks appear.
T_Stalker
10-09-07, 03:18 AM Oh well, while there's a recent thread about Hide anyway, I've got a question:
Are you technically "invisible" whilst hidden, meaning no Dex to AC for your opponent?
Kouk
10-09-07, 03:42 AM Oh well, while there's a recent thread about Hide anyway, I've got a question:
Are you technically "invisible" whilst hidden, meaning no Dex to AC for your opponent?

You gain the benefits against an opponent who is unable to see you as if you were "invisible" yes, meaning you get a +2 to your attack against them and they are denied Dex bonus against you (unless they have Uncanny Dodge, though you still get a +2 bonus to attack rolls against them).
nighttree
10-09-07, 11:01 AM I am not seeing where it says a Skulk does not require Cover or Concealment, or that they can Hide while observed, only that the Peerless Camouflage (Ex) ability allows them to move at full speed without taking a penalty to Hide. I looked in both Races of Destiny and the Fiend Folio, where Skulks appear.

YOUR RIGHT....
I do have "Hide in plain sight", but we seem to have been using the "peerless camouflage" in much the same manner as the Rangers "camouflage" ability (which states you can hide even if the terrain does not grant cover or concealment).

Must have fallen into that just because it seemed logical :embarrass
Kouk
10-09-07, 10:37 PM Must have fallen into that just because it seemed logical :embarrass

Eh, it happens, hehe.
nighttree
10-10-07, 12:07 AM OK would someone be willing to walk me through what my Skulk can & can't do in regards to hiding.

As a Skulk he takes no penalty to hide for movement, he has "Hide in plain sight" (so can use hide skill even while being observed).
Do I still need something (like the Cloak Dance feat) to make him close to truly invisible ?
Kouk
10-10-07, 01:03 AM OK would someone be willing to walk me through what my Skulk can & can't do in regards to hiding.

As a Skulk he takes no penalty to hide for movement, he has "Hide in plain sight" (so can use hide skill even while being observed).
Do I still need something (like the Cloak Dance feat) to make him close to truly invisible ?

What is your class, level and relevant magical equipment?

For a Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight, that just allows you to Hide even if you are being "observed" (meaning that there are enemies aware of you). It still does not negate the requirement for Cover or Concealment by itself (you need Camouflage ability and to be in a natural environment). Basically this means if you are in a warehouse, you can move behind a barrel and make a Hide check, and suddenly it's like you just vanished. A Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight works similarly, except just having nearby shadows is enough to start a Hide check.

If the Ranger with the Camouflage ability (Edit: and also the Hide in Plain Sight ability) is in a "natural environment" then he doesn't even need to find Cover or Concealment to Hide. In an outdoor environment, you can pretty much just say "I Hide now", though if you start Attacking it gets really hard to stay hidden.

The Skulk ability is good for things like using Bluff to "create a diversion" from Hide skill:your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.

So a skulk could do this without the -10 penalty from having to move fast.

It's kind of hard to explain for me, but the official FAQ discusses Hide in Plain Sight a bit. Here is (Edit: an excerpt from) the FAQ's example about a Ranger using HiPS and Camouflage: Put all three of these elements together—such as in the
hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get:
1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in
natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment).
2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an
attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be
considered hiding when he attacks).
3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide
check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or
concealment while in natural terrain).
4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”
Tsuul
10-10-07, 01:57 AM You gain the benefits against an opponent who is unable to see you as if you were "invisible" yes, meaning you get a +2 to your attack against them and they are denied Dex bonus against you (unless they have Uncanny Dodge, though you still get a +2 bonus to attack rolls against them).This is only if you take the -20 to your hide check before the attack.
Should you get spotted, roll init as normal for the surprise round, you may still catch him flatfooted for the attack.
war_thog
10-10-07, 02:43 AM If you had snuck up behind someone and wanted to chop then then youd go straight to init.

You would get the surprise round.
They would not.
Then youd default to normal init. *hope to go first for more flat footed love!*
Dheran
10-10-07, 03:54 AM If you had snuck up behind someone and wanted to chop then then youd go straight to init.

You would get the surprise round.
They would not.
Then youd default to normal init. *hope to go first for more flat footed love!* In D&D there's no "behind someone", because the game has no concept of "facing" direction. Instead D&D represents sneaking up on someone by opposed checks with Hide beating Spot.

Everything else war_thog said was correct.
Kouk
10-10-07, 04:02 AM This is only if you take the -20 to your hide check before the attack.
Should you get spotted, roll init as normal for the surprise round, you may still catch him flatfooted for the attack.

I believe you don't have to deal with this while Sniping, you just have to make another -20 Hide check to remain hidden after you shoot.
nighttree
10-10-07, 10:53 AM What is your class, level and relevant magical equipment?

Dark Skulk (Skulk with the Dark Template from ToM)
Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 2 (total ECL 9)
No relevant magic items

As I indicated, we have been playing "Peerless Camouflage", as "Camouflage" + can make full movement without penalty (may need to re-address this).

The "goal" with the build was to keep opponents "flat footed" as much as possible (using Hide, and the variouse degrees of camouflage).
Tsuul
10-10-07, 02:07 PM I believe you don't have to deal with this while Sniping...It's a serious flaw with the hiding system in 3.x. It is impossible to snipe correctly during the surprise round. Ambushing and sniping don't mix. :weep:
Brigands draw lots before battle to see which one will greet the adventurers on the road while the rest hide; thereby skipping the surprise round altogether.
goawayugh
10-10-07, 02:35 PM Dark Skulk (Skulk with the Dark Template from ToM)
Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 2 (total ECL 9)
No relevant magic items

As I indicated, we have been playing "Peerless Camouflage", as "Camouflage" + can make full movement without penalty (may need to re-address this).

The "goal" with the build was to keep opponents "flat footed" as much as possible (using Hide, and the variouse degrees of camouflage).

Rogue 2+Swashbuckler 3+Assassin 2+Racial HD 2+LA 1=10 (and that is before the Dark template, which I don't know what LA that is). I think your math is a little off.
nighttree
10-11-07, 10:37 AM Rogue 2+Swashbuckler 3+Assassin 2+Racial HD 2+LA 1=10 (and that is before the Dark template, which I don't know what LA that is). I think your math is a little off.

Sorry about the delay in responding...I was doing the Gleemax shuffle :mad:

Actually my math appears to be correct
Skulk are 2 racial HD +1 LA
Dark Template +1 LA
LA reduced at level 6 & 9 (LA buy off) = 2 (racial HD)
Class levels total 7 + 2 racial HD + ECL 9
Count Arioch the 28th
10-11-07, 11:02 AM In D&D there's no "behind someone", because the game has no concept of "facing" direction. Instead D&D represents sneaking up on someone by opposed checks with Hide beating Spot.

Actually, in D&D it's impossible to sneak up on someone without Hide in Plain Sight, because the second you leave cover, you are no longer hiding, spotting you is automatic, and you go into normal initiative with no surprise round.
goawayugh
10-11-07, 11:59 AM Sorry about the delay in responding...I was doing the Gleemax shuffle :mad: Grrrrr....Actually my math appears to be correct
Skulk are 2 racial HD +1 LA
Dark Template +1 LA
LA reduced at level 6 & 9 (LA buy off) = 2 (racial HD)
Class levels total 7 + 2 racial HD + ECL 9

Ah, LA buyoff. Ok, your math does seem right.

Dark Template on a Skulk, you're just trying to NEVER been seen, aren't you...lol. I like.
nighttree
10-11-07, 12:38 PM Dark Template on a Skulk, you're just trying to NEVER been seen, aren't you...lol. I like.

:D Well that was the basic idea.

I had thought of taking a couple of levels of "Shadowdancer" instead of the Dark template (Hide in plain sight + Imp evasion, & Imp Uncanny Dodge), but I'm running to short on feats to qualify for another PrC......:weep:
Tsuul
10-11-07, 05:07 PM Actually, in D&D it's impossible to sneak up on someone without Hide in Plain Sight, because the second you leave cover, you are no longer hiding, spotting you is automatic, and you go into normal initiative with no surprise round.Complete Adv fixed this with an addition to the hide rules.
Also you could hide, then do a partial charge as your surprise round action. But you wouldn't be considered hidden for the attack.
Count Arioch the 28th
10-11-07, 05:30 PM Complete Adv fixed this with an addition to the hide rules.
Also you could hide, then do a partial charge as your surprise round action. But you wouldn't be considered hidden for the attack.

I used to have a house rule. If you made your move silently check, the target didn't hear you and didn't look in your direction.

That was before I folded Spot and Listen into one skill, as well as Hide and Move Silently.
nighttree
10-12-07, 12:21 AM I'm TRYING to get this guy to the point that anytime a person does not make a succesful "Spot" check, they are "flat footed" and thus vulnerable to Sneak Attack.
IF.....and that's probably a big If....I'm getting this right, between Peerless camoflauge (can run up to someone), Hide in plain sight (being observed), and not needing cover or concealment, he's effectively "Invisible".
Then it's Sneak Attacks all around :D
Tsuul
10-12-07, 04:01 AM If you can get it so he doesn't need cover or concealment to remain hidden, you still need to take the -20 penalty to your hide check to be considered hidden when you make the attack.

There is just no way around that. (Well, the DM can get around that, but he doesn't count.)

Take a look at the FAQ. Do a search for "spring attack". There is a question about a ranger with spring attack and HiPS, and camouflage. Even he needs to take the -20 penalty to his hide check to remain "invisible" for the attack.
nighttree
10-12-07, 10:36 AM If you can get it so he doesn't need cover or concealment to remain hidden, you still need to take the -20 penalty to your hide check to be considered hidden when you make the attack.

There is just no way around that. (Well, the DM can get around that, but he doesn't count.)

Take a look at the FAQ. Do a search for "spring attack". There is a question about a ranger with spring attack and HiPS, and camouflage. Even he needs to take the -20 penalty to his hide check to remain "invisible" for the attack.

I think that is exactly what I was looking for, although he is bypassing the -20 for most kinds of actions, he would still need to make a "hide check" at -20 to attack without them being "aware" that someone is attacking.

Of course (again assuming I'm getting this right) they would also need to do a spot at -20 to "pinpoint" him for an attack, so that's a fair trade off.

Thanks Tsuul
1 ton ghost
10-12-07, 10:42 AM you can still work up on someone despite the lack of cover. think it's a -5/5ft square of non-cover you are moving across to reach objective. not the best, but i mean, damn, it's a free attack w/ SA, don't knock it.
Tsuul
10-12-07, 02:47 PM Of course (again assuming I'm getting this right) they would also need to do a spot at -20 to "pinpoint" him for an attack, so that's a fair trade off.There is no such thing for spot. To attack hidden like should be very difficult. As you might have noticed, however, it's pretty easy to get your hide skill up with ridiculous modifiers.
nighttree
10-14-07, 12:15 PM There is no such thing for spot. To attack hidden like should be very difficult. As you might have noticed, however, it's pretty easy to get your hide skill up with ridiculous modifiers.

Actually there is :D The "There, not There" series of acticles from "rules of the game" discusses them, and even gives you a nifty chart.
Tsuul
10-14-07, 02:42 PM Ahh, you have been bringing over the rules for spotting invisible creatures.
Those are rules for finding really invisible creatures, when you have no way of discerning them. They don't apply to the hide skill.
Also note they use static DCs the spotter has to make, not penalties on the spot check.
Crichton
10-14-07, 04:38 PM Actually, in D&D it's impossible to sneak up on someone without Hide in Plain Sight, because the second you leave cover, you are no longer hiding, spotting you is automatic, and you go into normal initiative with no surprise round.I thought you could move a number of feet equal to your hide skill? If your hide skill is 15 and your movement is 30, you could sneak up on someone moving half your movement and get a suprise attack.
Tsuul
10-14-07, 08:25 PM I thought you could move a number of feet equal to your hide skill? If your hide skill is 15 and your movement is 30, you could sneak up on someone moving half your movement and get a suprise attack.That's part of the bluff-to-cause-a-distraction-and-now-you-gotta-hide-quick rules. There is a -10 to your hide check penalty there, because you have to move fast.
Dheran
10-22-07, 09:30 AM I thought you could move a number of feet equal to your hide skill? If your hide skill is 15 and your movement is 30, you could sneak up on someone moving half your movement and get a suprise attack. Yes, that's absolutely correct. This rule has been written up 3 times in different forms in 3rd Edition D&D; the latest iteration is the Move between Cover application of Hide, found in Complete Adventurer. You take a -1 penalty to your Hide check for every foot you move with no cover/concealment -- but if you still make your check, you're hidden without cover, concealment, camouflage, or the Supernatural form of Hide in Plain Sight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nighttree 10-08-07, 09:16 PM	However, I'm playing a Skulk :D Now Skulks are able to use the hide skill while being observed, without cover, and can move their full movement (and even run) without taking any penalties, so the question is this. is there a "point of proximity" where I would no longer be "hidden" ?
Kouk 10-09-07, 02:32 AM	However, I'm playing a Skulk :D Now Skulks are able to use the hide skill while being observed, without cover, and can move their full movement (and even run) without taking any penalties, so the question is this. is there a "point of proximity" where I would no longer be "hidden" ? I am not seeing where it says a Skulk does not require Cover or Concealment, or that they can Hide while observed, only that the Peerless Camouflage (Ex) ability allows them to move at full speed without taking a penalty to Hide. I looked in both Races of Destiny and the Fiend Folio, where Skulks appear.
T_Stalker 10-09-07, 03:18 AM	Oh well, while there's a recent thread about Hide anyway, I've got a question: Are you technically "invisible" whilst hidden, meaning no Dex to AC for your opponent?
Kouk 10-09-07, 03:42 AM	Oh well, while there's a recent thread about Hide anyway, I've got a question: Are you technically "invisible" whilst hidden, meaning no Dex to AC for your opponent? You gain the benefits against an opponent who is unable to see you as if you were "invisible" yes, meaning you get a +2 to your attack against them and they are denied Dex bonus against you (unless they have Uncanny Dodge, though you still get a +2 bonus to attack rolls against them).
nighttree 10-09-07, 11:01 AM	I am not seeing where it says a Skulk does not require Cover or Concealment, or that they can Hide while observed, only that the Peerless Camouflage (Ex) ability allows them to move at full speed without taking a penalty to Hide. I looked in both Races of Destiny and the Fiend Folio, where Skulks appear. YOUR RIGHT.... I do have "Hide in plain sight", but we seem to have been using the "peerless camouflage" in much the same manner as the Rangers "camouflage" ability (which states you can hide even if the terrain does not grant cover or concealment). Must have fallen into that just because it seemed logical :embarrass
Kouk 10-09-07, 10:37 PM	Must have fallen into that just because it seemed logical :embarrass Eh, it happens, hehe.
nighttree 10-10-07, 12:07 AM	OK would someone be willing to walk me through what my Skulk can & can't do in regards to hiding. As a Skulk he takes no penalty to hide for movement, he has "Hide in plain sight" (so can use hide skill even while being observed). Do I still need something (like the Cloak Dance feat) to make him close to truly invisible ?
Kouk 10-10-07, 01:03 AM	OK would someone be willing to walk me through what my Skulk can & can't do in regards to hiding. As a Skulk he takes no penalty to hide for movement, he has "Hide in plain sight" (so can use hide skill even while being observed). Do I still need something (like the Cloak Dance feat) to make him close to truly invisible ? What is your class, level and relevant magical equipment? For a Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight, that just allows you to Hide even if you are being "observed" (meaning that there are enemies aware of you). It still does not negate the requirement for Cover or Concealment by itself (you need Camouflage ability and to be in a natural environment). Basically this means if you are in a warehouse, you can move behind a barrel and make a Hide check, and suddenly it's like you just vanished. A Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight works similarly, except just having nearby shadows is enough to start a Hide check. If the Ranger with the Camouflage ability (Edit: and also the Hide in Plain Sight ability) is in a "natural environment" then he doesn't even need to find Cover or Concealment to Hide. In an outdoor environment, you can pretty much just say "I Hide now", though if you start Attacking it gets really hard to stay hidden. The Skulk ability is good for things like using Bluff to "create a diversion" from Hide skill:your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast. So a skulk could do this without the -10 penalty from having to move fast. It's kind of hard to explain for me, but the official FAQ discusses Hide in Plain Sight a bit. Here is (Edit: an excerpt from) the FAQ's example about a Ranger using HiPS and Camouflage: Put all three of these elements together—such as in the hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get: 1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment). 2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be considered hiding when he attacks). 3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or concealment while in natural terrain). 4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”
Tsuul 10-10-07, 01:57 AM	You gain the benefits against an opponent who is unable to see you as if you were "invisible" yes, meaning you get a +2 to your attack against them and they are denied Dex bonus against you (unless they have Uncanny Dodge, though you still get a +2 bonus to attack rolls against them).This is only if you take the -20 to your hide check before the attack. Should you get spotted, roll init as normal for the surprise round, you may still catch him flatfooted for the attack.
war_thog 10-10-07, 02:43 AM	If you had snuck up behind someone and wanted to chop then then youd go straight to init. You would get the surprise round. They would not. Then youd default to normal init. hope to go first for more flat footed love!
Dheran 10-10-07, 03:54 AM	If you had snuck up behind someone and wanted to chop then then youd go straight to init. You would get the surprise round. They would not. Then youd default to normal init. hope to go first for more flat footed love! In D&D there's no "behind someone", because the game has no concept of "facing" direction. Instead D&D represents sneaking up on someone by opposed checks with Hide beating Spot. Everything else war_thog said was correct.
Kouk 10-10-07, 04:02 AM	This is only if you take the -20 to your hide check before the attack. Should you get spotted, roll init as normal for the surprise round, you may still catch him flatfooted for the attack. I believe you don't have to deal with this while Sniping, you just have to make another -20 Hide check to remain hidden after you shoot.
nighttree 10-10-07, 10:53 AM	What is your class, level and relevant magical equipment? Dark Skulk (Skulk with the Dark Template from ToM) Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 2 (total ECL 9) No relevant magic items As I indicated, we have been playing "Peerless Camouflage", as "Camouflage" + can make full movement without penalty (may need to re-address this). The "goal" with the build was to keep opponents "flat footed" as much as possible (using Hide, and the variouse degrees of camouflage).
Tsuul 10-10-07, 02:07 PM	I believe you don't have to deal with this while Sniping...It's a serious flaw with the hiding system in 3.x. It is impossible to snipe correctly during the surprise round. Ambushing and sniping don't mix. :weep: Brigands draw lots before battle to see which one will greet the adventurers on the road while the rest hide; thereby skipping the surprise round altogether.
goawayugh 10-10-07, 02:35 PM	Dark Skulk (Skulk with the Dark Template from ToM) Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 2 (total ECL 9) No relevant magic items As I indicated, we have been playing "Peerless Camouflage", as "Camouflage" + can make full movement without penalty (may need to re-address this). The "goal" with the build was to keep opponents "flat footed" as much as possible (using Hide, and the variouse degrees of camouflage). Rogue 2+Swashbuckler 3+Assassin 2+Racial HD 2+LA 1=10 (and that is before the Dark template, which I don't know what LA that is). I think your math is a little off.
nighttree 10-11-07, 10:37 AM	Rogue 2+Swashbuckler 3+Assassin 2+Racial HD 2+LA 1=10 (and that is before the Dark template, which I don't know what LA that is). I think your math is a little off. Sorry about the delay in responding...I was doing the Gleemax shuffle :mad: Actually my math appears to be correct Skulk are 2 racial HD +1 LA Dark Template +1 LA LA reduced at level 6 & 9 (LA buy off) = 2 (racial HD) Class levels total 7 + 2 racial HD + ECL 9
Count Arioch the 28th 10-11-07, 11:02 AM	In D&D there's no "behind someone", because the game has no concept of "facing" direction. Instead D&D represents sneaking up on someone by opposed checks with Hide beating Spot. Actually, in D&D it's impossible to sneak up on someone without Hide in Plain Sight, because the second you leave cover, you are no longer hiding, spotting you is automatic, and you go into normal initiative with no surprise round.
goawayugh 10-11-07, 11:59 AM	Sorry about the delay in responding...I was doing the Gleemax shuffle :mad: Grrrrr....Actually my math appears to be correct Skulk are 2 racial HD +1 LA Dark Template +1 LA LA reduced at level 6 & 9 (LA buy off) = 2 (racial HD) Class levels total 7 + 2 racial HD + ECL 9 Ah, LA buyoff. Ok, your math does seem right. Dark Template on a Skulk, you're just trying to NEVER been seen, aren't you...lol. I like.
nighttree 10-11-07, 12:38 PM	Dark Template on a Skulk, you're just trying to NEVER been seen, aren't you...lol. I like. :D Well that was the basic idea. I had thought of taking a couple of levels of "Shadowdancer" instead of the Dark template (Hide in plain sight + Imp evasion, & Imp Uncanny Dodge), but I'm running to short on feats to qualify for another PrC......:weep:
Tsuul 10-11-07, 05:07 PM	Actually, in D&D it's impossible to sneak up on someone without Hide in Plain Sight, because the second you leave cover, you are no longer hiding, spotting you is automatic, and you go into normal initiative with no surprise round.Complete Adv fixed this with an addition to the hide rules. Also you could hide, then do a partial charge as your surprise round action. But you wouldn't be considered hidden for the attack.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-11-07, 05:30 PM	Complete Adv fixed this with an addition to the hide rules. Also you could hide, then do a partial charge as your surprise round action. But you wouldn't be considered hidden for the attack. I used to have a house rule. If you made your move silently check, the target didn't hear you and didn't look in your direction. That was before I folded Spot and Listen into one skill, as well as Hide and Move Silently.
nighttree 10-12-07, 12:21 AM	I'm TRYING to get this guy to the point that anytime a person does not make a succesful "Spot" check, they are "flat footed" and thus vulnerable to Sneak Attack. IF.....and that's probably a big If....I'm getting this right, between Peerless camoflauge (can run up to someone), Hide in plain sight (being observed), and not needing cover or concealment, he's effectively "Invisible". Then it's Sneak Attacks all around :D
Tsuul 10-12-07, 04:01 AM	If you can get it so he doesn't need cover or concealment to remain hidden, you still need to take the -20 penalty to your hide check to be considered hidden when you make the attack. There is just no way around that. (Well, the DM can get around that, but he doesn't count.) Take a look at the FAQ. Do a search for "spring attack". There is a question about a ranger with spring attack and HiPS, and camouflage. Even he needs to take the -20 penalty to his hide check to remain "invisible" for the attack.
nighttree 10-12-07, 10:36 AM	If you can get it so he doesn't need cover or concealment to remain hidden, you still need to take the -20 penalty to your hide check to be considered hidden when you make the attack. There is just no way around that. (Well, the DM can get around that, but he doesn't count.) Take a look at the FAQ. Do a search for "spring attack". There is a question about a ranger with spring attack and HiPS, and camouflage. Even he needs to take the -20 penalty to his hide check to remain "invisible" for the attack. I think that is exactly what I was looking for, although he is bypassing the -20 for most kinds of actions, he would still need to make a "hide check" at -20 to attack without them being "aware" that someone is attacking. Of course (again assuming I'm getting this right) they would also need to do a spot at -20 to "pinpoint" him for an attack, so that's a fair trade off. Thanks Tsuul
1 ton ghost 10-12-07, 10:42 AM	you can still work up on someone despite the lack of cover. think it's a -5/5ft square of non-cover you are moving across to reach objective. not the best, but i mean, damn, it's a free attack w/ SA, don't knock it.
Tsuul 10-12-07, 02:47 PM	Of course (again assuming I'm getting this right) they would also need to do a spot at -20 to "pinpoint" him for an attack, so that's a fair trade off.There is no such thing for spot. To attack hidden like should be very difficult. As you might have noticed, however, it's pretty easy to get your hide skill up with ridiculous modifiers.
nighttree 10-14-07, 12:15 PM	There is no such thing for spot. To attack hidden like should be very difficult. As you might have noticed, however, it's pretty easy to get your hide skill up with ridiculous modifiers. Actually there is :D The "There, not There" series of acticles from "rules of the game" discusses them, and even gives you a nifty chart.
Tsuul 10-14-07, 02:42 PM	Ahh, you have been bringing over the rules for spotting invisible creatures. Those are rules for finding really invisible creatures, when you have no way of discerning them. They don't apply to the hide skill. Also note they use static DCs the spotter has to make, not penalties on the spot check.
Crichton 10-14-07, 04:38 PM	Actually, in D&D it's impossible to sneak up on someone without Hide in Plain Sight, because the second you leave cover, you are no longer hiding, spotting you is automatic, and you go into normal initiative with no surprise round.I thought you could move a number of feet equal to your hide skill? If your hide skill is 15 and your movement is 30, you could sneak up on someone moving half your movement and get a suprise attack.
Tsuul 10-14-07, 08:25 PM	I thought you could move a number of feet equal to your hide skill? If your hide skill is 15 and your movement is 30, you could sneak up on someone moving half your movement and get a suprise attack.That's part of the bluff-to-cause-a-distraction-and-now-you-gotta-hide-quick rules. There is a -10 to your hide check penalty there, because you have to move fast.
Dheran 10-22-07, 09:30 AM	I thought you could move a number of feet equal to your hide skill? If your hide skill is 15 and your movement is 30, you could sneak up on someone moving half your movement and get a suprise attack. Yes, that's absolutely correct. This rule has been written up 3 times in different forms in 3rd Edition D&D; the latest iteration is the Move between Cover application of Hide, found in Complete Adventurer. You take a -1 penalty to your Hide check for every foot you move with no cover/concealment -- but if you still make your check, you're hidden without cover, concealment, camouflage, or the Supernatural form of Hide in Plain Sight.