I was wondering [Archive] - Wizards Community

I was wondering [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
snakebliskan
03-27-07, 08:23 AM I keep hearing about clerics and paladins being able to use a presistant spell that just rocks but I cant find a 3rd lvl spell that would make them so bad... A presistant spell must take the place of a spell 6 lvls higher, so only 3rd and lower.. I must be missing something here?
runestar
03-27-07, 08:28 AM They use the divine metamagic feat in complete divine, which lets them burn turn attempts to add a metamagic feat to a spell without a slot increase. So at the cost of 7 turn attempts, they can persist any spell for free. Or let it last 2 days with 8 turn attempts.:)
Inigo Carmine
03-27-07, 08:31 AM It's usually combined with something called (I think) Divine Metamagic that allows you to substitute turning attempts instead of spell levels. AKA, you can persistant a 9th lvl spell for just a 9th level spell slot but expending some daily turn attempts.

Since turn attempts are largely worthless past lower levels, the cost is pretty much a non issue (beyond taking the feat itself).
snakebliskan
03-27-07, 08:31 AM thx runestar.
starfire311
03-27-07, 08:45 AM I keep hearing about clerics and paladins being able to use a presistant spell that just rocks but I cant find a 3rd lvl spell that would make them so bad... A presistant spell must take the place of a spell 6 lvls higher, so only 3rd and lower.. I must be missing something here?

if you are wondering waht the most common spells that are used are, they are IMO, Divine Favor(1st), Divine Power(4th), Righteous Might(5th)
tarkin
03-27-07, 11:42 AM I have never seen a persistent spell build that is fair.

Either

1. they are too weak to be worth wasting the feat(s), and casting the spell of that level

or

2. They are over-powered and should be dissallowed.
Inigo Carmine
03-27-07, 12:35 PM I have never seen a persistent spell build that is fair.

Either

1. they are too weak to be worth wasting the feat(s), and casting the spell of that level

or

2. They are over-powered and should be dissallowed.

Agreed. It's because of the one-size-fits-all spell duration. Persistant spell is not at all worth it for spells with 1hr/lv+ durations, but ungodly powerful for 1 rnd/lvl type durations.

They shoot for the middle ground making it balanced for spells that are like 10min/lvl with the fringes still being unbalanced in either direction.

If they're going to stick with a fixed spell duration, they need to adjust the spell slot increase based on base spell duration. Or, have a fixed spell slot increase, but bump up the duration by category: ie round -> minute, minute -> 10 minute, etc.
Zherog
03-27-07, 01:03 PM if you are wondering waht the most common spells that are used are, they are IMO, Divine Favor(1st), Divine Power(4th), Righteous Might(5th)

Elation, a 2nd level spell from Book of Exalted Deeds (and I believe the Spell Compendium) is also very popular. It grants morale bonuses to Strength and Dex, and increases your base speed. The duration is normally pathetically short, but it is a valid target for Persistent Spell.

Along with Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), you need to toss in night sticks from Libris Mortis for more turning attempts via a really cheap magic item.
Slimgauge
03-27-07, 01:29 PM The Complete Divine errata nerfed the Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell trick.

Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit
paragraph of the feat description:

When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that
you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat.
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning
or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat
to divine spells that you know. . . .

Net result is you can no longer take just the Divine Metamagic feat, you also need the Persistent Spell feat and its prerequisite Extend Spell feat.
Zherog
03-27-07, 02:42 PM Yep; and if you're going to cheese out and head down this path, it's still worth doing.
AkaKageWarrior
03-27-07, 03:32 PM okay, the party's only cleric wastes his turning attempts for persistant divine metamagic stuff in the morning as usual.
later that day, hordes of undead attack the party. -eek!- now some more turning attempts would be useful!

a DM can control the misuse of this "strange" feat usage.

just some thoughts,
AKW
Baron Rod
03-27-07, 03:44 PM okay, the party's only cleric wastes his turning attempts for persistant divine metamagic stuff in the morning as usual.
later that day, hordes of undead attack the party.

I think most people would agree that who cares about turning Undead. When you get to the point of using Persistant Spell is good, you still can't destroy any Undead worth turning. So you destroy a bunch of zombies and such, who cares. They can't really hurt you. Any Undead stronger you can only turn. With the fighting skill you have with Persistant spells you can easily destroy them and are better equiped for stronger opponents.

Baron Rod
AkaKageWarrior
03-27-07, 03:51 PM I think most people would agree that who cares about turning Undead. When you get to the point of using Persistant Spell is good, you still can't destroy any Undead worth turning. So you destroy a bunch of zombies and such, who cares. They can't really hurt you. Any Undead stronger you can only turn. With the fighting skill you have with Persistant spells you can easily destroy them and are better equiped for stronger opponents.

Baron Rod

yes and no. I'm quite paranoid about undead and negative levels. that's why I play a radiant servant of Pelor.
I'd never dare to waste too many turn attempts for special divine feat uses, just need some destroy undead attempts from the sun domain as a reserve...

AKW
Salla
03-27-07, 03:56 PM yes and no. I'm quite paranoid about undead and negative levels. that's why I play a radiant servant of Pelor.
I'd never dare to waste too many turn attempts for special divine feat uses, just need some destroy undead attempts from the sun domain as a reserve...

AKW

You have to consider how Turn Undead, as written, interacts with undead CRs. Because undead HD give so little, it's not uncommon for an undead creature's HD to be double it's CR. Since Turning operates off, essentially, comparing your cleric level to the undead's HD, not CR, your odds of doing anything useful with Turn Undead decrease significantly as you advance in levels. The RSoP helps with this ... though it really sounds like you get a lot of really undead-loving DMs. :)
cfbehr21
04-04-07, 10:58 AM Our party has a 21st level Epic Human Cleric with Divine Metamagic, Persistent Spell and its prerequisite Extend Spell feat combined with the following build stats:

Starting Wisdom 18, Tome of Understanding (+5 Wisdom, pg 268 DMG, 137,500 GP), +5 Wisdom from level advancement, Periapt of Wisdom +6 for a total of 34 Wisdom (+12 bonus).

Then he adds in the feat extra turning and some Charisma bonuses and comes up with 12 turn attempts per day.

He then prepares Visage of the Deity, Greater (9th Level, Spell Compendium, pg 231) as a 9th level persistent spell with Divine Metamagic which uses up 7 turn attempts. It gives you the following bonuses (this is for the Good aligned Cleric BTW):

- You grow feathered wings that allow you to fly at twice your normal speed (good maneuverability).
- You gain +1 natural armor.
- You gain low-light vision.
- You gain resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10.
- You gain immunity to disease.
- You gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
- You gain damage reduction 10/magic.
- You gain spell resistance 25.
- You gain the following bonuses to your ability scores: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. (Note: these bonuses stack WITH ANYTHING!)

And they last all day with the cost of 1 9th level spell slot and 7 turn attempts. When you boost the Charisma, you get 2 of those turn attempts back! Also, his Wisdom is now 38 (+14) and his bonus 9th level spells go from 1 to 2, so, if he holds the Visage spell until just prior to preparing new spells, HE GETS THE SPELL SLOT BACK AS WELL!

No wonder they nerfed Divine Metamagic.
Zherog
04-04-07, 01:31 PM Then he adds in the feat extra turning and some Charisma bonuses and comes up with 12 turn attempts per day.

Wait until he finds out how cheap night sticks (in Libris Mortis) are. Then he'll have even more turning attempts per day, so he can persist several spells. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snakebliskan 03-27-07, 08:23 AM	I keep hearing about clerics and paladins being able to use a presistant spell that just rocks but I cant find a 3rd lvl spell that would make them so bad... A presistant spell must take the place of a spell 6 lvls higher, so only 3rd and lower.. I must be missing something here?
runestar 03-27-07, 08:28 AM	They use the divine metamagic feat in complete divine, which lets them burn turn attempts to add a metamagic feat to a spell without a slot increase. So at the cost of 7 turn attempts, they can persist any spell for free. Or let it last 2 days with 8 turn attempts.:)
Inigo Carmine 03-27-07, 08:31 AM	It's usually combined with something called (I think) Divine Metamagic that allows you to substitute turning attempts instead of spell levels. AKA, you can persistant a 9th lvl spell for just a 9th level spell slot but expending some daily turn attempts. Since turn attempts are largely worthless past lower levels, the cost is pretty much a non issue (beyond taking the feat itself).
snakebliskan 03-27-07, 08:31 AM	thx runestar.
starfire311 03-27-07, 08:45 AM	I keep hearing about clerics and paladins being able to use a presistant spell that just rocks but I cant find a 3rd lvl spell that would make them so bad... A presistant spell must take the place of a spell 6 lvls higher, so only 3rd and lower.. I must be missing something here? if you are wondering waht the most common spells that are used are, they are IMO, Divine Favor(1st), Divine Power(4th), Righteous Might(5th)
tarkin 03-27-07, 11:42 AM	I have never seen a persistent spell build that is fair. Either 1. they are too weak to be worth wasting the feat(s), and casting the spell of that level or 2. They are over-powered and should be dissallowed.
Inigo Carmine 03-27-07, 12:35 PM	I have never seen a persistent spell build that is fair. Either 1. they are too weak to be worth wasting the feat(s), and casting the spell of that level or 2. They are over-powered and should be dissallowed. Agreed. It's because of the one-size-fits-all spell duration. Persistant spell is not at all worth it for spells with 1hr/lv+ durations, but ungodly powerful for 1 rnd/lvl type durations. They shoot for the middle ground making it balanced for spells that are like 10min/lvl with the fringes still being unbalanced in either direction. If they're going to stick with a fixed spell duration, they need to adjust the spell slot increase based on base spell duration. Or, have a fixed spell slot increase, but bump up the duration by category: ie round -> minute, minute -> 10 minute, etc.
Zherog 03-27-07, 01:03 PM	if you are wondering waht the most common spells that are used are, they are IMO, Divine Favor(1st), Divine Power(4th), Righteous Might(5th) Elation, a 2nd level spell from Book of Exalted Deeds (and I believe the Spell Compendium) is also very popular. It grants morale bonuses to Strength and Dex, and increases your base speed. The duration is normally pathetically short, but it is a valid target for Persistent Spell. Along with Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), you need to toss in night sticks from Libris Mortis for more turning attempts via a really cheap magic item.
Slimgauge 03-27-07, 01:29 PM	The Complete Divine errata nerfed the Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell trick. Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit paragraph of the feat description: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. . . . Net result is you can no longer take just the Divine Metamagic feat, you also need the Persistent Spell feat and its prerequisite Extend Spell feat.
Zherog 03-27-07, 02:42 PM	Yep; and if you're going to cheese out and head down this path, it's still worth doing.
AkaKageWarrior 03-27-07, 03:32 PM	okay, the party's only cleric wastes his turning attempts for persistant divine metamagic stuff in the morning as usual. later that day, hordes of undead attack the party. -eek!- now some more turning attempts would be useful! a DM can control the misuse of this "strange" feat usage. just some thoughts, AKW
Baron Rod 03-27-07, 03:44 PM	okay, the party's only cleric wastes his turning attempts for persistant divine metamagic stuff in the morning as usual. later that day, hordes of undead attack the party. I think most people would agree that who cares about turning Undead. When you get to the point of using Persistant Spell is good, you still can't destroy any Undead worth turning. So you destroy a bunch of zombies and such, who cares. They can't really hurt you. Any Undead stronger you can only turn. With the fighting skill you have with Persistant spells you can easily destroy them and are better equiped for stronger opponents. Baron Rod
AkaKageWarrior 03-27-07, 03:51 PM	I think most people would agree that who cares about turning Undead. When you get to the point of using Persistant Spell is good, you still can't destroy any Undead worth turning. So you destroy a bunch of zombies and such, who cares. They can't really hurt you. Any Undead stronger you can only turn. With the fighting skill you have with Persistant spells you can easily destroy them and are better equiped for stronger opponents. Baron Rod yes and no. I'm quite paranoid about undead and negative levels. that's why I play a radiant servant of Pelor. I'd never dare to waste too many turn attempts for special divine feat uses, just need some destroy undead attempts from the sun domain as a reserve... AKW
Salla 03-27-07, 03:56 PM	yes and no. I'm quite paranoid about undead and negative levels. that's why I play a radiant servant of Pelor. I'd never dare to waste too many turn attempts for special divine feat uses, just need some destroy undead attempts from the sun domain as a reserve... AKW You have to consider how Turn Undead, as written, interacts with undead CRs. Because undead HD give so little, it's not uncommon for an undead creature's HD to be double it's CR. Since Turning operates off, essentially, comparing your cleric level to the undead's HD, not CR, your odds of doing anything useful with Turn Undead decrease significantly as you advance in levels. The RSoP helps with this ... though it really sounds like you get a lot of really undead-loving DMs. :)
cfbehr21 04-04-07, 10:58 AM	Our party has a 21st level Epic Human Cleric with Divine Metamagic, Persistent Spell and its prerequisite Extend Spell feat combined with the following build stats: Starting Wisdom 18, Tome of Understanding (+5 Wisdom, pg 268 DMG, 137,500 GP), +5 Wisdom from level advancement, Periapt of Wisdom +6 for a total of 34 Wisdom (+12 bonus). Then he adds in the feat extra turning and some Charisma bonuses and comes up with 12 turn attempts per day. He then prepares Visage of the Deity, Greater (9th Level, Spell Compendium, pg 231) as a 9th level persistent spell with Divine Metamagic which uses up 7 turn attempts. It gives you the following bonuses (this is for the Good aligned Cleric BTW): - You grow feathered wings that allow you to fly at twice your normal speed (good maneuverability). - You gain +1 natural armor. - You gain low-light vision. - You gain resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10. - You gain immunity to disease. - You gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. - You gain damage reduction 10/magic. - You gain spell resistance 25. - You gain the following bonuses to your ability scores: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. (Note: these bonuses stack WITH ANYTHING!) And they last all day with the cost of 1 9th level spell slot and 7 turn attempts. When you boost the Charisma, you get 2 of those turn attempts back! Also, his Wisdom is now 38 (+14) and his bonus 9th level spells go from 1 to 2, so, if he holds the Visage spell until just prior to preparing new spells, HE GETS THE SPELL SLOT BACK AS WELL! No wonder they nerfed Divine Metamagic.
Zherog 04-04-07, 01:31 PM	Then he adds in the feat extra turning and some Charisma bonuses and comes up with 12 turn attempts per day. Wait until he finds out how cheap night sticks (in Libris Mortis) are. Then he'll have even more turning attempts per day, so he can persist several spells. :)