Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crash169 06-13-07, 02:20 AM	Is the Iaijutsu Focus skill from the Oriental Adventures book compatible with 3.5? The Samurai class in the complete warrior doesn't seem to get it.. Nor is it mentioned. Has anybody experimented with this?
koiulpoi 06-13-07, 02:23 AM	Since it was never reprinted (to my knowledge) and OA was somewhat-officially updated to 3.5 in Dragon, it should be legal. Just be sure you're playing in an oriental-themed area and not just trying to min/max for the ultimate d6 damage :D. The Samurai class from CW is terrible. If you want the same "samurai" idea, get the Tome of Battle and take stuff in the Diamond Mind school. Or, you could look at my sig *cough cough*.
Kouk 06-13-07, 05:20 AM	The 3.0, OA samurai is infinitely better than the CW version, which is sort of a violent smashing-together of the different kinds of OA samurai. The mechanics of Iaijutsu Focus seems fine, if the DM allows it.
Crash169 06-13-07, 01:38 PM	You guys really think the 3.0 samurai is much better than the complete one huh? When classes are remade, we are kind of forced to take the new ones. We figure they remade them for a reason. 3.0 Samurai is just a fighter with exotic weapon proficiency at 1st level.
AAB 06-13-07, 01:41 PM	plus cool thematic bonus feat lists. plus a kensai-like sword-enchanting progression. plus they aren't forced into the TWF routine of the 3.5 samurai.
Kouk 06-13-07, 05:02 PM	I don't mean to say really that the CW Samurai class is terrible (other people can say that for me). If what it offers is exactly the way you wanted your character to be, then it works out great. The OA Samurai is much more customizable though. You can take different sorts of bonus feats to produce different styles of samurai. It's as if there were really several different Samurai classes in that book, which could suit your individual tastes. A major problem people have with the CW Samurai, is just that it appears to say "This is the samurai in D&D" with its name. While you and I know in our heads that it doesn't matter what the name of the class is, you can be a samurai regardless, it just seems wrong in the gut. I like some of the things about it, but if they gave it some kind of qualifier, like "Lion Samurai" (because he shouts and uses two weapons, or something like that) it would go over better with the general gaming public. The OA Samurai just seems more samurai than the CW Samurai, if ya know what I mean :P.
Zaver 06-13-07, 05:12 PM	When classes are remade, we are kind of forced to take the new ones. We figure they remade them for a reason. WotC makes too many new classes, feats, new uses for skills and th like to not have alot of mistakes. If you like a class from 1st ed. just make the needed changes to fit it into 3.5 and play.
koiulpoi 06-13-07, 08:41 PM	You guys really think the 3.0 samurai is much better than the complete one huh? When classes are remade, we are kind of forced to take the new ones. We figure they remade them for a reason. 3.0 Samurai is just a fighter with exotic weapon proficiency at 1st level. He uses "two swords as one". Very few samurai used both swords of the daisho. The wakizashi also should not be a masterwork weapon - most of them were made from inferior materials. The katana was used, alone. The few historical examples we have of "two-weapon fighting" use two, identical shorter swords (name escapes me at the moment. And besides, the picture is of a dwarf samurai wielding one sword. Good job on that one, guys. So, yes, I consider the OA one superior, if only because it lets you customize your Samurai to what you want to do rather than slapping the name "samurai" on a badly thought out class with little to no historical basis. The OA Samurai is really fighter+, with enough historical flair.
AAB 06-13-07, 09:15 PM	was it chisagatana/chisakatana? i think that's what you're talking about. and, actually, your generic katana probably wasn't "masterwork" as per DnD, either. and your "historical examples" bit? even Musashi talked about the uses of the "long sword" and "short sword". don't make generalizations.
koiulpoi 06-13-07, 10:47 PM	was it chisagatana/chisakatana? i think that's what you're talking about. and, actually, your generic katana probably wasn't "masterwork" as per DnD, either. and your "historical examples" bit? even Musashi talked about the uses of the "long sword" and "short sword". don't make generalizations. If you knew anything about Miyamoto Musashi you would know that he was the one who founded the style called "two blades as one", and that the style was uncommonly used, despite the man himself becoming famous. He was a master swordsman, indeed, but not everyone can be. For most of the samurai class (and I mean social), using only the katana for most fighting was the most efficient. So, yes, I'm going to make generalizations, as we're talking about distilling hundreds of years of Japanese history into twenty levels. I wouldn't expect it to be anything near realistic, but I would expect better than the atrocity that Complete Warrior claimed it was.
Zaver 06-13-07, 11:39 PM	If you knew anything about Miyamoto Musashi you would know that he was the one who founded the style called "two blades as one", and that the style was uncommonly used, despite the man himself becoming famous. He was a master swordsman, indeed, but not everyone can be. For most of the samurai class (and I mean social), using only the katana for most fighting was the most efficient. So, yes, I'm going to make generalizations, as we're talking about distilling hundreds of years of Japanese history into twenty levels. I wouldn't expect it to be anything near realistic, but I would expect better than the atrocity that Complete Warrior claimed it was. Most samurai didn't use the katana that often either. They tended to usespears and bows, the samurai fighting almost soley with the katana is down to the romanticization of the samurai. Alot of that romanticization comes from people who were just swordsmen, not proper samurai. Edit: Crap I said mostly alot... That was fixed.
Ninetails Demon 06-14-07, 12:05 AM	I personally prefer the OA Samurai. The only change I ever actually offer for the class is allowing the player to choose a different weapon for his samurai's ancestry weapon that also works within the "historical" context. For an example: bows. And to stay in context of the OP's post: My group uses Iaijutsu Focus. Haven't really had any problems with it.
koiulpoi 06-14-07, 12:38 AM	Most samurai didn't use the katana that often either. They tended to usespears and bows, the samurai fighting almost soley with the katana is down to the romanticization of the samurai. Alot of that romanticization comes from people who were just swordsmen, not proper samurai. Edit: Crap I said mostly alot... That was fixed. Well, yes, you're mostly right. However, I was phrasing my arguments in the context of applying the modern "view" of reality to a fantasy game. Honestly, how many people would you get to agree with you if you said "Samurai used guns"? Very few, despite it being true. I mean, if you want to get really technical, there were a number of samurai, especially in the later periods, who were nothing more than noblemen with little to no combat training. But again, who plays Aristocrat 20 and says they're a Samurai?
Zaver 06-14-07, 12:42 AM	Well, yes, you're mostly right. However, I was phrasing my arguments in the context of applying the modern "view" of reality to a fantasy game. Honestly, how many people would you get to agree with you if you said "Samurai used guns"? Very few, despite it being true. I mean, if you want to get really technical, there were a number of samurai, especially in the later periods, who were nothing more than noblemen with little to no combat training. But again, who plays Aristocrat 20 and says they're a Samurai? Bald faced liars. Or is it bold faced? I never did get the 'bald faced' thing, maybe bearded folk are more honest. I see your point though about the modern ideal being applied and I think fantasy games are the best for "historical" class builds. Which is part of why the samurai in CW is lacking. To little of the false view of what they were. At least for me.
AAB 06-14-07, 12:52 AM	If you knew anything about Miyamoto Musashi you would know that he was the one who founded the style called "two blades as one", and that the style was uncommonly used, despite the man himself becoming famous. He was a master swordsman, indeed, but not everyone can be. For most of the samurai class (and I mean social), using only the katana for most fighting was the most efficient. So, yes, I'm going to make generalizations, as we're talking about distilling hundreds of years of Japanese history into twenty levels. I wouldn't expect it to be anything near realistic, but I would expect better than the atrocity that Complete Warrior claimed it was. i know quite a bit about niten ichiryu, actually. and i have no problem with you arguing specific points with me. but when you insult my intelligence with the first sentence of your post it becomes a little more difficult to see you as a reasonable, logical person. to the OP: yes, i think IF was my favorite part of OA. i loved the PrC Iaijutsu Master, too. i like finessing my katana.
koiulpoi 06-14-07, 01:36 AM	Zaver - yes, we can agree that the CW samurai is lacking AAB - funny how you take such extreme offense to me "insulting your intelligence" (when all I had to go off of was a couple of sentences that apparently did not convey what you wanted them to) and you then go right ahead and seemingly insult me. Is it so unreasonable for me to think that you know little to nothing about the material, when you say "Even Musashi" - implying that he is part of a large movement, and representative of the whole; rather than the founder of a movement that never truly took hold? I apologize for "insulting your intelligence" - in other words, telling you what you already knew. It wasn't my intention. My intention was to make sure that, since we were talking for that moment historical, that it really was historical. I hope this can be moved back to friendly terms. Anyways, the point is, CW Samurai is ass. Iaijutsu focus is cool. It's why I made a terribly anime class based off of the same idea. It's in my sig, if you're interested.
Kouk 06-14-07, 01:46 AM	It's in my sig, if you're interested. What sig?
AAB 06-14-07, 01:53 AM	in his first post in the thread.
Twylyght 06-14-07, 01:55 AM	his sig is up in his first post, the board only shows each users sig once per page to save on clutter :) edit - **drat he beat me to it grr** and yes CW samurai suck. and yes OA samurai are great.
Iarmeister 06-14-07, 01:57 AM	3.0 Samurai is just a fighter with exotic weapon proficiency at 1st level. Actually, no. OA's Samurai also gets Ancestral Daisho, which is like the Kensai PrC's Signature Weapon ability; he gets this at level 1, btw. At level 4 he can start enhancing his weapons as magic items. Also at level 1, OA's Samurai also gets (4 + Int modifier) x4, with additional 4 skill points/level (plus Int mod). He also gets good Fort and Will SV's...not to mention the additional feats every other level as a core fighter.
Kouk 06-14-07, 01:57 AM	his sig is up in his first post, the board only shows each users sig once per page to save on clutter :) Ah, funny I have been here all this time and never noticed that. Thanks :D
KurenaiYami 06-14-07, 02:00 AM	3.0 Samurai is just a fighter with exotic weapon proficiency at 1st level. They don't get any exotic weapon proficiency unless they choose to take the feat. They are proficient with all simple and martial weapons along with light and medium armor.
AAB 06-14-07, 02:16 AM	yeah, IIRC EWP(katana) was only worthwhile for lion-clan samurai. Edit: i meant dragon clan.
burtki 06-14-07, 03:18 AM	The L5R series of novels brought out the many demensions of the samuria. From the poet to the warrior, I enjoyed them as much as R.A. As for the feats and skills of the class I think that keep it balanced.
Sleepwalker13666 06-14-07, 03:42 AM	He also gets good Fort and Will SV's...not to mention the additional feats every other level as a core fighter. Actually he only gets them about every three to four levels, he losses a few feats because of the ancestral weapon.
Iarmeister 06-14-07, 12:25 PM	Actually he only gets them about every three to four levels, he losses a few feats because of the ancestral weapon. Doh! No more reading in the dark for me. :P
Nephallim 06-14-07, 01:41 PM	I never quite got the "historical x weren't like that" argument. Classes in DnD aren't meant to reflect "real" paladins, samurai, or ninja, just fantastic literary interpretations of them. For example, historical paladins were "palace knights" in the service of Charlemagne(sp?). They may have been Christian, but they weren't church knights. Anyway...all that aside, I agree: CW samurai is infearior to OA samurai. All in all, I prefer to just scrap "samurai" as a base class and let it be RP thing rather than mechanics.
RealSorceror 06-14-07, 02:15 PM	Since it was never reprinted (to my knowledge) and OA was somewhat-officially updated to 3.5 in Dragon, it should be legal. Just be sure you're playing in an oriental-themed area and not just trying to min/max for the ultimate d6 damage :D. Whiney Factotum: "But, but......its a class skill." :bigeyes:
Crash169 06-14-07, 05:43 PM	Actually, no. OA's Samurai also gets Ancestral Daisho, which is like the Kensai PrC's Signature Weapon ability; he gets this at level 1, btw. At level 4 he can start enhancing his weapons as magic items. Also at level 1, OA's Samurai also gets (4 + Int modifier) x4, with additional 4 skill points/level (plus Int mod). He also gets good Fort and Will SV's...not to mention the additional feats every other level as a core fighter. The OA Samurai's Ancestral Daisho is not really like the Kensai PrC's Signature Weapon ability. The Samurai has to pay for the enhancements, just like everybody else.
Kouk 06-14-07, 05:56 PM	The OA Samurai's Ancestral Daisho is not really like the Kensai PrC's Signature Weapon ability. The Samurai has to pay for the enhancements, just like everybody else. Pay cash he means. Though items with value work also, so you can do something with all those gold idols you found in the ruins without having to sell them.
Khatoblepas 06-14-07, 06:42 PM	I use Iajutsu Focus in my games, noone seems to mind as it gives martial characters a good opening. I even have a samurai type who uses this quite often, though he's an orc. :P Also, twinked out Iajutsu Focus + Aura of Chaos = Win. Forget honour, QUICK DRAW EXPLODING DICE STRIKE!
koiulpoi 06-14-07, 07:20 PM	I always thought a sick combo would be some way of gaining sneak attack as a rogue (Sneak Attack Fighter?) along with Iaijutsu Focus (the skill knowledge feat?), along with things like imrpoved feint. Probably would work best in a gestalt campaign.
Khatoblepas 06-14-07, 07:44 PM	Human Factotum 1/Fighter 2/Rogue 17 Crusader 20 Lots of Daggers on bandoleers on body + Maxed Iajutsu Focus + 8d6 sneak attack. Round 1 (surprise) Swift: Assume Aura of Chaos stance. Free: Draw Dagger Free: Draw Dagger Full Attack (16d6 sneak attack, +9d6 iajutsu, with two daggers attacking once) 16d6+9d6 = 25d6. Each dice has a 1/6 chance of exploding. So we add 4d6 ontop of that. 29d6. Of course, we'll have 6 attacks by then (With Greater Two Weapon Fighting), so that's roughly 87d6. Alternatively, you could just do it with Improved Invisibility or HIPS, if it makes the enemy flat footed.