Iaijutsu Spring Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Iaijutsu Spring Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bionecrosis
06-07-07, 01:09 PM I'm working on my first samurai from the outdated (3.0; did they make a new one?) Oriental Adventures book, and I've come into a problem. Can my samurai use the Iaijutsu Focus ability during a charge, provided he has Spring Attack? Since pulling out a weapon is a free action with Quick Draw, my samurai can easily pull it out just before passing another person on his way to his target. And if the person he passes along the way is flatfooted to him (such as fighting an ally of his), can I make an Iaijutsu attack, and keep moving to my target?

A friend I'd asked on this matter said that Oriental Adventures is simply broken, and that it overrides and rules in the PHB. But there's no mention of this in the PHB nor in OA, because the issue probably didn't come up at all.

One solution I've come up with is that (one) can only perform an action like this if he has multiple attacks in a round. The attack along the way is his secondary attack for the round, and/or his attack of opprotunity for the round (unless he has combat reflexes, in which case the iaijutsu attack is merely one of his AoOs).
AAB
06-07-07, 01:12 PM 1. you can only make one attack during a charge, and that has to be at the end of your movement.

2. someone who is fighting an ally of yours is in no way flat-footed. you might flank them, but why would they be flat-footed?

so in short: no, you can't.
Bionecrosis
06-07-07, 01:36 PM 1: Straight from the PHB: After moving, you may make a single melee attack... Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Spring Attack effectively allows you to make an attack while moving, without breaking the movement, and thus it overrules the "one attack during a charge" clause because the target of the Spring Attack was on the way to the charge target, and because that clause was put into place so that a fighter with 4 attacks can't get them all in during a charge.

2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat.
Salla
06-07-07, 01:42 PM That move is flatly illegal, sorry. :)

Spring Attacking and Charging are two different Full-Round actions. You can't sideswipe someone in mid-charge, flat-footed or no.

If you had one of the 'more than one attack during a Spring Attack' feats from PHBII, you could approximate this by using one attack on the flat-footed guy, then the second on the next guy, but you wouldn't be charging.
Bionecrosis
06-07-07, 01:51 PM Deleted
Inigo Carmine
06-07-07, 02:01 PM 2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat.

Got a quote for this?

Even if that were correct, the target would still not be flat footed. Barring certain extremely special conditions, once you have acted in combat you are no longer flat footed.

As for spring attacking, charging and # of attacks:

SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Spring attack allows you to split a single move (or take 2 separate moves, the total of which doesn't exceed your move speed) around an attack action with a melee weapon.

An attack action is a specifc standard action that allows a single attack.
Kouk
06-07-07, 02:04 PM I wouldn't say OA overrides the PHB, it adds new rules more than changes old ones.

If you want to Spring Attack and use Iaijutsu Focus that is fine, but you will have to do it against an enemy that has not yet taken an action in the combat. For this reason, a high DEX and the Improved Initiative feat would be very valuable for this tactic.

You should look at the Iaijutsu Master PrC on page 41 of OA. One of their abilities allows you to attack twice as a Standard Action, allowing two attacks after a single move action instead of the usual one, but this is not something you can combine with Spring Attack.

There was an update to 3.5, by James Wyatt in Dragon Magazine #318 (which you can download from Paizo.com for about $5) but it doesn't really talk about Iaijutsu at all.
tarkin
06-07-07, 03:52 PM 2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat.

What utter foolishness.

Party consists of:

Monk who usually fights unarmed
Psionicist with no drawn weapon.
Wizard with a dagger in a sheath (no staff)
Warforged with no drawn weapon.
Warlock, with no staff or other such item.
Druid who spends most of his time shapechanged into a bear
Fighter with a weapon.

Fighter attacks enemey.

Are you really going to sit there and claim that the enemey does not perceive any of the rest of the party as a threat?

Get real.

Basic assumption: Any potential combatant that is not armed has some kind of natural weapon, unarmed attack, excetional, supernatural, spell like, psionic or actual spell attack.
Grave_Accomplice
06-07-07, 06:13 PM 2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat.

I'm guessing you haven't been in too many fights then...

You could do something similar with the Iaijutsu Master PrC if I remember right, but you can't if charging someone whose flanked. They still aren't flat footed.

Just an observasion though (maybe a bit snarky here): ToB is supposed to have made fighters more playable, but OA is somehow broken?
kalstrand
06-07-07, 07:11 PM 2. someone who is fighting an ally of yours is in no way flat-footed. you might flank them, but why would they be flat-footed?

I think what he meant was that if you don't have a weapon drawn then you don't threaten your enemy.

Party consists of:

Monk who usually fights unarmed
Psionicist with no drawn weapon.
Wizard with a dagger in a sheath (no staff)
Warforged with no drawn weapon.
Warlock, with no staff or other such item.
Druid who spends most of his time shapechanged into a bear
Fighter with a weapon.

Given my previous statement and the list above the only ones who threaten the enemy are the monk, warforged (assuming he has some form of natural attack, and the fighter unless one of them has taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
Grave_Accomplice
06-07-07, 07:32 PM I think what he meant was that if you don't have a weapon drawn then you don't threaten your enemy.

No, what he's saying is that (he believes) you're flat footed because you don't think the guy with a sheathed weapon is a threat.

2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat.

I'm fighting opponent A, so the guy moving in closer with a sheathed weapon can't possibly be opponent B...
Kouk
06-08-07, 01:32 AM I'm fighting opponent A, so the guy moving in closer with a sheathed weapon can't possibly be opponent B...

That sounds like a good Suggestion for a friend to cast though. :D
Grave_Accomplice
06-08-07, 11:24 AM That sounds like a good Suggestion for a friend to cast though. :D

It just might work. ;)
koiulpoi
06-08-07, 09:39 PM Not to blow my own horn or anything here, but check out the Iaidoka base class in my sig. It's probably exactly what you're looking for, completely retooled from OA.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bionecrosis 06-07-07, 01:09 PM	I'm working on my first samurai from the outdated (3.0; did they make a new one?) Oriental Adventures book, and I've come into a problem. Can my samurai use the Iaijutsu Focus ability during a charge, provided he has Spring Attack? Since pulling out a weapon is a free action with Quick Draw, my samurai can easily pull it out just before passing another person on his way to his target. And if the person he passes along the way is flatfooted to him (such as fighting an ally of his), can I make an Iaijutsu attack, and keep moving to my target? A friend I'd asked on this matter said that Oriental Adventures is simply broken, and that it overrides and rules in the PHB. But there's no mention of this in the PHB nor in OA, because the issue probably didn't come up at all. One solution I've come up with is that (one) can only perform an action like this if he has multiple attacks in a round. The attack along the way is his secondary attack for the round, and/or his attack of opprotunity for the round (unless he has combat reflexes, in which case the iaijutsu attack is merely one of his AoOs).
AAB 06-07-07, 01:12 PM	1. you can only make one attack during a charge, and that has to be at the end of your movement. 2. someone who is fighting an ally of yours is in no way flat-footed. you might flank them, but why would they be flat-footed? so in short: no, you can't.
Bionecrosis 06-07-07, 01:36 PM	1: Straight from the PHB: After moving, you may make a single melee attack... Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge. Spring Attack effectively allows you to make an attack while moving, without breaking the movement, and thus it overrules the "one attack during a charge" clause because the target of the Spring Attack was on the way to the charge target, and because that clause was put into place so that a fighter with 4 attacks can't get them all in during a charge. 2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat.
Salla 06-07-07, 01:42 PM	That move is flatly illegal, sorry. :) Spring Attacking and Charging are two different Full-Round actions. You can't sideswipe someone in mid-charge, flat-footed or no. If you had one of the 'more than one attack during a Spring Attack' feats from PHBII, you could approximate this by using one attack on the flat-footed guy, then the second on the next guy, but you wouldn't be charging.
Bionecrosis 06-07-07, 01:51 PM	Deleted
Inigo Carmine 06-07-07, 02:01 PM	2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat. Got a quote for this? Even if that were correct, the target would still not be flat footed. Barring certain extremely special conditions, once you have acted in combat you are no longer flat footed. As for spring attacking, charging and # of attacks: SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Spring attack allows you to split a single move (or take 2 separate moves, the total of which doesn't exceed your move speed) around an attack action with a melee weapon. An attack action is a specifc standard action that allows a single attack.
Kouk 06-07-07, 02:04 PM	I wouldn't say OA overrides the PHB, it adds new rules more than changes old ones. If you want to Spring Attack and use Iaijutsu Focus that is fine, but you will have to do it against an enemy that has not yet taken an action in the combat. For this reason, a high DEX and the Improved Initiative feat would be very valuable for this tactic. You should look at the Iaijutsu Master PrC on page 41 of OA. One of their abilities allows you to attack twice as a Standard Action, allowing two attacks after a single move action instead of the usual one, but this is not something you can combine with Spring Attack. There was an update to 3.5, by James Wyatt in Dragon Magazine #318 (which you can download from Paizo.com for about $5) but it doesn't really talk about Iaijutsu at all.
tarkin 06-07-07, 03:52 PM	2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat. What utter foolishness. Party consists of: Monk who usually fights unarmed Psionicist with no drawn weapon. Wizard with a dagger in a sheath (no staff) Warforged with no drawn weapon. Warlock, with no staff or other such item. Druid who spends most of his time shapechanged into a bear Fighter with a weapon. Fighter attacks enemey. Are you really going to sit there and claim that the enemey does not perceive any of the rest of the party as a threat? Get real. Basic assumption: Any potential combatant that is not armed has some kind of natural weapon, unarmed attack, excetional, supernatural, spell like, psionic or actual spell attack.
Grave_Accomplice 06-07-07, 06:13 PM	2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat. I'm guessing you haven't been in too many fights then... You could do something similar with the Iaijutsu Master PrC if I remember right, but you can't if charging someone whose flanked. They still aren't flat footed. Just an observasion though (maybe a bit snarky here): ToB is supposed to have made fighters more playable, but OA is somehow broken?
kalstrand 06-07-07, 07:11 PM	2. someone who is fighting an ally of yours is in no way flat-footed. you might flank them, but why would they be flat-footed? I think what he meant was that if you don't have a weapon drawn then you don't threaten your enemy. Party consists of: Monk who usually fights unarmed Psionicist with no drawn weapon. Wizard with a dagger in a sheath (no staff) Warforged with no drawn weapon. Warlock, with no staff or other such item. Druid who spends most of his time shapechanged into a bear Fighter with a weapon. Given my previous statement and the list above the only ones who threaten the enemy are the monk, warforged (assuming he has some form of natural attack, and the fighter unless one of them has taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
Grave_Accomplice 06-07-07, 07:32 PM	I think what he meant was that if you don't have a weapon drawn then you don't threaten your enemy. No, what he's saying is that (he believes) you're flat footed because you don't think the guy with a sheathed weapon is a threat. 2: If your ally is fighting someone, but your weapon isn't drawn, they don't perceive you as a threat. I'm fighting opponent A, so the guy moving in closer with a sheathed weapon can't possibly be opponent B...
Kouk 06-08-07, 01:32 AM	I'm fighting opponent A, so the guy moving in closer with a sheathed weapon can't possibly be opponent B... That sounds like a good Suggestion for a friend to cast though. :D
Grave_Accomplice 06-08-07, 11:24 AM	That sounds like a good Suggestion for a friend to cast though. :D It just might work. ;)
koiulpoi 06-08-07, 09:39 PM	Not to blow my own horn or anything here, but check out the Iaidoka base class in my sig. It's probably exactly what you're looking for, completely retooled from OA.