Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sharn Inquisitor 06-20-07, 12:28 PM	Well, here's a section of the forum which I have yet to scan! I came up with an idea the other night while speaking with a buddy of mine with whom I game. The idea is on broadening the skills of a PC by just a bit. We were discussing how narrow a fighter type was when it came to skill points, and skills over all. Naturally, if a player wanted to expand that, they could use various feats and cross-class skill selection. This presents the player with a tough choice of using already-limited skill points on cross-class skills, and/or having to use Feats to make up the difference. For instance, what if your fighter is just naturally gifted with a silver tongue? Or, your wizard has a very keen eye for spotting things? Maybe your paladin has an uncanny ability for hearing? My idea is to allow 1st level PC's the option of selecting three out of class skills to enhance their character. These bonus class skills could never be changed, and literally work into the backstory of what makes your character who they are. I'd love some feedback. For instance, Gromm the Fighter is as big and strong as daddy. Daddy was an adventurer who saved the life of a silver-tongued diplomat, and they eventually married and produced Gromm. Seeing his mother's ability to manipulate others with words, where daddy's fists couldn't get through, Gromm learned the art of Diplomacy, and has a natural aptitude for said art. Gromm has no interest in being a rogue, or cleric, or bard, or other class that has an ability for diplomacy. He's just naturally good at speaking, thus diplomacy. This is just one narrow example, but I think it gets my idea across. Please, I'd love some thoughts.
shift244 06-20-07, 01:57 PM	Gromm the Fighter is as big and strong as daddy. Daddy was an adventurer who saved the life of a silver-tongued diplomat, and they eventually married and produced Gromm. Seeing his mother's ability to manipulate others with words, where daddy's fists couldn't get through, Gromm learned the art of Diplomacy, and has a natural aptitude for said art. Gromm has no interest in being a rogue, or cleric, or bard, or other class that has an ability for diplomacy. He's just naturally good at speaking, thus diplomacy.So, Gromm starts level 1 with Skill Focus (Diplomacy), which represents the edge he has gleaned from his mother in the first 16 or so years of his life under her care. From then on, he adventures and focuses more on following his father's footsteps (Fighter class), instead of his mother's (Bard or Rogue), thus gaining little progress the art subtle speech maneuvers. I'm not sure how 3 extra core non-class skills upgraded to class skills will affect gameplay, not by much perhaps, in general, since most will not have the skill points to make effective use of that many. BUT there is always a big consideration, especially with Hide vs Spot type skills. If every class can do that, then the scouting classes will loose one facet of usefulness. Ditto for other skills, which will eventually prop up as play goes on. The classes are designed with a certain facet of role to play in the party. If you want to upgrade some non-class skills to class skills, select a few skills that are generally less useful, like Knowledge or Profession? Do watch out for PrC requirements when you do this though, as these "dump skills" are often just what the oft more powerful PrC wants.
Mandras 06-20-07, 02:00 PM	Very nice idea. Just a thought - as some of the strength and weakness of a class comes from the number of skills available to it as class skills - perhaps three skills is too much and for balancing purposes you should limited it to two. Best Regards, Mandras
tarkin 06-20-07, 02:06 PM	What you seem to be offering is too powerfull without limits. By far the best skills in a core game are: Use Magic Devices Spot Listen for every character, regardless of class. Sense Motive is the next on the list, but it is so far below the first three that it doesn't really matter. If you outlaw those 3 skills then I would approve your idea as being reasonable for a "Power Game", or even for some Loose Games. If you let people take them, that becomes an Anything Goes Game. Also, no one should ever take anything but those skills, because they are so much better than the other skills
Sharn Inquisitor 06-21-07, 10:32 AM	I agree on all counts, and these are all issues I've discussed with others, but I wanted to open the idea up to a broader audience. Perhaps three is too many for consideration, perhaps only 1 skill could be added to a character at Level 1 for the purpose of background development. In the example above, I could see Gromm using his Level 1 feat on Skill Focus: Diplomacy. Heck, if he's human, he still has 2 more to use on combat feats. By allowing a PC to have 1-2 'outside' class skills, a PC isn't forced to use a feat like the example I just mentioned. If they aren't human, they're already one short of what Gromm would have at level 1. I agree the UMD might be an obvious choice for many PCs, but the DM can disallow such behavior. Only allow one of the PCs to add UMD to their class skills, and make that part of background development critical to why the character has that additional class skill. A UMD Example: The father was an eccentric wizard who wanted his son to follow in dad's footsteps. Uninterested in magic, the boy grew to resent magic and focused his abilities on the thrills of martial combat. He still managed however, to pick up some of his father's teaching/knowledge through years of banter and has a strong sense for making use of magic devices. I mean, let's face facts. A human fighter starts out on the low end in the mid-teens, that's (15) years of listening to mom or dad's lessons. How could you not pick things up from childhood?
shift244 06-21-07, 04:27 PM	I mean, let's face facts. A human fighter starts out on the low end in the mid-teens, that's (15) years of listening to mom or dad's lessons. How could you not pick things up from childhood?I'd rather think that it's a pretty poor point of an argument there. Dwarfs and elves start with far advanced ages at level 1 by the book, but yet, adventuring in the party, the progress at an equal rate as their human companions. What does this imply on the longer lived races ability to learn vs their abilities at starting age? Should not all elves then begin with UMD as class skills by default regardless of class since Wizard being their favored class should also imply a society where no young elf would not have been exposed to magic to a great degree? Magic, is not as easy to pick up as you seem to suggest. I believe that the class system is there to place a niche/theme to each character, and that any diversification from this has a price, which are greater costs in cross class skills, and or feats. A DM can use rule #0 to provide a +2 RP bonus to any checks (ala situational bonuses) that are explained in a character's background. All's fair there. Your idea has some merits. I do find some of the classes extremely limited in skill selection and would've preferred more and better options. But my opinion on the matter, is not to place extra skills to fit a character's background story. Almost all skills are purchasable now as cross-class skills at worst. That is enough for me.
Leress 06-21-07, 04:50 PM	What you seem to be offering is too powerfull without limits. By far the best skills in a core game are: Use Magic Devices Spot Listen for every character, regardless of class. Sense Motive is the next on the list, but it is so far below the first three that it doesn't really matter. If you outlaw those 3 skills then I would approve your idea as being reasonable for a "Power Game", or even for some Loose Games. If you let people take them, that becomes an Anything Goes Game. Also, no one should ever take anything but those skills, because they are so much better than the other skills I would agree but I would change the list you gave slightly Skills Use Magical Device Diplomacy Listen The thing is, they don't anymore skill point just more class skills. So it would only make it slightly easier to get the skills you want but since you still lack the skill points to spare, you still don't get very far with the skill.
Hapycamper 06-21-07, 04:54 PM	Currently playing a Wizard, I find my high INT gives me quite a few skill points, more than I can spend in most of my "interesting" class skills. As a very pro "role"-playing type player, I would love to have one or two skills that I could declare to be class skills. (I've even considered taking a level of non-wizard just to get some non-class skills into class skills, but I'm told -and can see why- that taking non-spellcaster levels is not usually a good idea for a wizard.) I'd love to have Handle Animal, Appraise, Ride, or some of the diplomacy skills as a class skill. I agree with others that there are a few skills that could be unbalancing if allowed to be added for certain classes. (spot/search/UMD/etc...) But even popular ones like Hide seem to me to be fairly reasonable... perhaps a sorceror just likes to hide in the background...
Pentar 06-21-07, 04:55 PM	Rather than giving them 3 new Class Skills, what if you give them the option to swap class and cross class skills at a 2:1 ratio? So if their character really calls for UMD, they sacrifice 2 class skills (thus making them cross-class) and gain UMD as a class skill.
Hapycamper 06-21-07, 04:56 PM	What you seem to be offering is too powerfull without limits. By far the best skills in a core game are: Use Magic Devices Spot Listen ...... If you let people take them, that becomes an Anything Goes Game. Also, no one should ever take anything but those skills, because they are so much better than the other skills I really don't see why everyone in a party would need to have a high Spot or Listen check... one or two should easily suffice. Otherwise you're really just doubling up on effort from an efficiency point of view and you're treading on each other's territory from a role-playing storytelling point of view.
Vharuck 06-21-07, 05:01 PM	I always saw class skills as being those skills which are intrinsic in the training to become the class. A wizard studies the laws of the world (mostly magic) and spends a lot of time in the library practicing memorization. Of course he could easily learn any of the Knowledges. However, if a wizard enjoys sneaking around, that's something he does outside of his wizardly training. This is why he has to spend more effort to reach a certain point; the skill's training doesn't synergize with the class's. And I don't see anything terrible about putting points into a cross-class skill. If you want to have a really roguish wizard, might I suggest a level of rogue for a dip? Sure, it'll set you back a caster level, but it makes for an interesting character.
tarkin 06-21-07, 05:16 PM	I really don't see why everyone in a party would need to have a high Spot or Listen check... one or two should easily suffice. Otherwise you're really just doubling up on effort from an efficiency point of view and you're treading on each other's territory from a role-playing storytelling point of view. I guess your DM does not try to surprise you. You get ambushed by Sneak Attacking Rogues one time, and boom "I WANT SPOT AND LISTEN AS A CLASS SKILL" Or do you house rule to let people that make their spot/listen check alert others as some kind of immediate action? ------------- Things that should happen on every encounter: 1. Spot/Listen check. 2. Initiative roll Init is not a skill, and hard to raise, but everyone can boost their spot/listen. -------------- As for the idea that other peopel can EVER use UMD safely? If they want it, then they should take it as a cross class skill. Poor baby, have to pay double and get it at 1/2 maximum. I bet your mother never loved you enough either. They are not asking to get some UMD, they are asking to go BEYOND the normal, being as good as a rogue with UMD. No way should it ever be allowed to any player as a freebi - no matter how good a 'story' they make up. This is something that definitely requires a feet. Same for Spot or Listen. P.S. Diplomacy and Sense Motive are good 4th/5th best skills. But they don't directly affect combat. More importantly, they can be opposed at maxs as well. I.E. I see nothing wrong with having all players take Diplomacy and Sense Motive as 'freebe' skills, because guess what, all NPC's from the city will do the SAME thing. The contest becomes even, not abusive. But Hide/Move Silently are SUPPOSED to be the Rogues's gifts - they are SUPPOSED to be better than you at them. Taking Spot/Listen is not fair because you are stealing what is supposed to be the Rogue's advantage.
Hapycamper 06-21-07, 06:23 PM	True, we don't get ambushed very often in our group. To answer your question, yes if someone sees or hears a rogue they are allowed to tell the others... or do you play that you only get a spot or listen check when rogues are standing on your feet? Despite your argument, I still think having one or two high spot & listen checks in a group is fine by me I'd rather have some more "interesting" options around than trying to duplicate things everyone else in the party is doing... So far, we've mostly been doing dungeon delving so we typically are kicking down doors, etc... and not being crept up on... ---------- As for rogue-centric abilities, they have the most skill points so will tend to be able to max out more skills. From a non-game rules perspective, I don't see why a wizard might not be a particularly observant person... (ie. why should a thief always have much keener observational powers than wizard? - 2x the skill ranks... ) ----------- But to the subject at hand, with limits, I love the idea of one or two "free" skills made into class skills...
Vharuck 06-21-07, 09:34 PM	From a non-game rules perspective, I don't see why a wizard might not be a particularly observant person... (ie. why should a thief always have much keener observational powers than wizard? - 2x the skill ranks... ) Are you serious? I'm not trying to offend, but I must ask: is this sarcasm? The thief has to hone his observational skills to avoid being caught. Also, despite the old adage, there is no honor among thieves. Thieves will happily mug one another. Have you ever done something wrong in a place where you could get caught doing it? I've done it when I try to sneak into work late. I can tell you, I am edgy and attempting to spot and listen for my supervisors. Doing that for years frequently enough to become an experienced Rogue would probably make me very skilled at both Spot and Listen just for training what I did as a class. Wizards study. They experiment. I don't really see how that improves their ability to be aware of their surroundings any more than any normal career.
Hapycamper 06-21-07, 11:52 PM	Are you serious? I'm not trying to offend, but I must ask: is this sarcasm? ..... Wizards study. They experiment. I don't really see how that improves their ability to be aware of their surroundings any more than any normal career. Nope, not sarcasm... I agree thieves on average should be more observant, but am trying to make the point that there could be an argument that there might be a wizard that is not only 1/2 as observant than a rogue. This proposed option would make them possible in rare cases. The question to ask of wizards would be what they study... if I were summoning a lot of demons I certainly would get pretty good at being observant about my surroundings... lets not let anything break my magic circle, now... In any case, I see this proposal best used to make more unique characters, and see this as a "good thing". A fighter with some nice knowledge skills, maybe a wizard who can do a bit of acrobatics, a rogue who can ride fast horse, whatever...
Sharn Inquisitor 06-22-07, 05:05 PM	I agree as well on the wizard being observant. So a person spends time evaluating spells, and studying manuscripts...they might also have a keen sense of observation that seems unnatural for their class. Cross class skills probably wouldn't help enable that. I'm just batting around the idea. I liked the notion above that described trading class skills out 2 to 1. It just bothers me as I continue to play the game that every wizard, rogue, fighter have the EXACT same class skills. I like the notion of allowing a player to do a small swap, or open things up a bit. I also liked the idea of having a feat that would allow a PC to unlock a latent talent for one, possibly 2 skills that are typically out of class.