Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 08-30-07, 04:34 PM	I have combat reflexes, hold the line, and a reach weapon (a ranseur if you must know). I ready versus a charge. A guy charges me. I get my readied attack. I get an attack of opportunity for hold the line. I get an attack of opportunity for leaving the square of my reach before getting to me. Is that right?
StruckingFuggle 08-30-07, 04:44 PM	You get three opportunities for attacks of opportunity. But unless you have Combat Reflexes and at least a 14 dex, you can't take advantage of them all. And I think that only the one from the readied action deals double damage.
tarkin 08-30-07, 05:05 PM	Not 100% positive, but I think that Hold the Line is an AoO based on movement. You can never get more than one AoO from movement. That AoO does not 'stack' with the AoO you get for your reach weapon, which is also a movement AoO. Correction, you can get multiple AoOs for movement, but only one for leaving a square, see below. But you do get your one regulard attack for Ready against a charge and you also get your single AoO. P.S. Combat Reflexes is a pre-req for Hold the Line, so assume he has it.
solandras 08-30-07, 05:19 PM	Not 100% positive, but I think that Hold the Line is an AoO based on movement. You can never get more than one AoO from movement. That AoO does not 'stack' with the AoO you get for your reach weapon, which is also a movement AoO. But you do get your one regulard attack for Ready against a charge and you also get your single AoO. P.S. Combat Reflexes is a pre-req for Hold the Line, so assume he has it. Hold the line is specific in that the enemy has to charge to provoke the attack of opportuinity, so I'd say the AoO is based on the full-round action of Charge, not specifically the movement. So I'd say he'd get all three attacks....but I don't really like how that works, doesn't make a whole lotta sense getting one AoO from charging at you, then another from...moving quickly at you. Oh well.
Dheran 08-30-07, 05:45 PM	I have combat reflexes, hold the line, and a reach weapon (a ranseur if you must know). I ready versus a charge. A guy charges me. I get my readied attack. I get an attack of opportunity for hold the line. I get an attack of opportunity for leaving the square of my reach before getting to me. Is that right? You have the opportunity to take three attacks, but probably get only two because of the limitations of your weapon:Ranseur A ranseur has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.Hold the Line Benefit: You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten. Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved. The charge is resolved when the foe can attack you. If they don't have a reach weapon then that happens when they're adjacent to you. The ranseur can't reach there, so despite having Hold the Line you don't have a suitable weapon to benefit from the AoO it offers you. Now, if you also have Improved Unarmed Strike or armor spikes you can make all three attacks because you'll threaten at both 10' and 5'.
StruckingFuggle 08-30-07, 06:37 PM	Not 100% positive, but I think that Hold the Line is an AoO based on movement. You can never get more than one AoO from movement. And where does it say that? It says you can't get more than one AoO from a single opportunity - and "movement" doesn't provide an opportunity. "Moving out of a threatened square" is an opportunity, as is "charging someone who has Hold the Line and entering a square they threaten" - completely different opportunity. Also, my own previous statement needs to be corrected, you don't need 14 dex to take advantage of all three attacks, because readying vs. a charge doesn't provoke an AoO. It's a readied action. So you just need two AoOs. That AoO does not 'stack' with the AoO you get for your reach weapon, which is also a movement AoO. Also, I don't see how you can make an argument that this doesn't work with a reach weapon that hits 10' but not 5'. Imagine four squares, A, B, C, and D, in a line. You're in A, and you threaten C but not B. You've readied a weapon against a charge. When someone charges from beyond D, and they enter C, you get two of the attacks. One when they enter C due to Hold The Line, one from them coming in range (readied action), and then when they move to leave C, they provoke the AoO for "leaving a threatened square", which you take while they're still in C.
Johnny_Angel 08-30-07, 06:52 PM	I would say that "yes, you do get three attacks." 1 attack because the opponent triggered your readied action 1 attack because of your feat 1 attack because the opponent is leaving a threatened space
Dheran 08-30-07, 09:28 PM	Also, I don't see how you can make an argument that this doesn't work with a reach weapon that hits 10' but not 5'. Imagine four squares, A, B, C, and D, in a line. You're in A, and you threaten C but not B. You've readied a weapon against a charge. When someone charges from beyond D, and they enter C, you get two of the attacks.Nope. You get one. Hold the Line's AoO isn't resolved until just before their charge attack. Unless they have a reach weapon they're at 5' just before their charge attack, and the ranseur can't reach them there.One when they enter C due to Hold The Line, one from them coming in range (readied action), and then when they move to leave C, they provoke the AoO for "leaving a threatened square", which you take while they're still in C. Hold the Line changes the way AoOs work, both in when they're provoked and when they're resolved.
SALDAR 08-30-07, 11:03 PM	You would get two attacks. One for ready and one for movement provoked AoO. The Charge special attack does not provoke an AoO but the movement associated with the Charge does. The feat states that the opponent must be charging, using the Charge special attack, but it does not say that charging is what provokes. It says that you get the AoO against the opponent when he moves into a square you threaten. The Normal section of the feat description states that you get an AoO against an opponent that moves out of a square you threaten. The normal section of a feat description tells what occurs if you do not have the feat. In this case, Normal is an AoO against an opponent moving out of a threatened square while the feat's benefit allows you to make an AoO against an opponent moving into a threatened square. If the Charge special attack is what provokes the AoO then the Normal section would say that Charge does not provoke an AoO, not that moving out of a threatened square does.
Knightblde 08-31-07, 08:06 AM	It is three. 1) The movement based AoO is for Leaving a threatened square. An opponent can only trigger this type of AoO once per round, barring Combat Reflexes. From the SRD Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. 2) Readied action, which no one appears to question 3) Hold the line, as Dheran pointed out: Hold the Line Benefit: You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten. Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved. This is COMPLETELY different than 1. It is VERY clear that it happens when the charger enters a threatened square, not when they are within 5'. This is 10' away because of the reach weapon.
Johnny_Angel 08-31-07, 08:27 AM	One problem I have with the SRD is that it doesn't say the same thing that the PHB does in some instances. I digress on that point though because it doesn't further the OP's discussion. I was thinking about it some more, and the answer is 2. You would get 3 attacks, but only 2 of them would be AoO. One of them would simply be a normal attack which you readied with specific conditions set. That's getting pretty deep into technical details, but I figured I'd go ahead and point that out since sometimes debates actually do get to that level on the boards. To keep things simple though, I'll refer to all 3 attacks as being the same. 1 attack from entering a threatened square 1 attack from triggering the ready action 1 attack from leaving a threatened square In that order Now all you need is one of those feats which allow you to take a 5ft step after taking an AoO; then you could just move out of the way of the charge, lol.
jaelis 08-31-07, 08:59 AM	Hold the Line's AoO isn't resolved until just before their charge attack. Unless they have a reach weapon they're at 5' just before their charge attack, and the ranseur can't reach them there. Hold the Line changes the way AoOs work, both in when they're provoked and when they're resolved. So you think HtL just doesn't work with a reach weapon? I agree that you can read the RAW that way (since it does say immediately), but I seriously think that is not the intention and not the way it should be played. If that was meant to be a limitation, surely they would have mentioned it explicitly. ("Note, the benefit of this feat cannot be obtained when using a reach weapon because...") You're being too strict about immediately. I think it means "as late as possible" not "it must happen right before the attacker rolls his die." Indeed, your interpretation opens up some problematic logical paradoxes. If the HtL attacks _must_ come immediately before the charge attack, then what happens if you drop your opponent? He now cannot make the charge attack, so your HtL attack could not have happened. But then he's not dead, and could attack you... Alternatively, for the sake of the current argument, we could just assume that the attacker has 10 foot reach too. (Actually, that doesn't really serve, since then you would still get only two AoO's... he never leaves your threatened square.)
tarkin 08-31-07, 10:28 AM	First let me admit I was wrong, you do get three attacks. Thank you Knightblde and others for correcting me. I disagree with you Jaelis. The feat does not have to account for reach weapons. (For one thing that would be too much to expect WoTC to do, considering some of the other things they have written.) It is simple a matter of thinking things through and applying the existing feat as is. Hold the Line is a melee attack. Melee Attacks can only happen when you are in reach. If someone never comes into your reach, you never get your melee attack. If I have a reach weapon and you don't, I get to charge you and hit before you get to hit me. After I hit, I stop moving and unless you have enough reach to hit me, you never get to attack me with your melee weapon, REGARDLESS of what other feats you have.
jaelis 08-31-07, 11:23 AM	I disagree with you Jaelis. Either I am misunderstanding you, or vice versa. If my opponent never comes in my reach, then I certainly can't attack him. That was not my point. The question is if I have a reach weapon and my opponent doesn't. My opponent is charging me. Nominally, I get an AoO from Hold the Line when he moves from 15 ft to 10 ft away, since he is entering my threatened area and that is what Hold the Line does. But Dheran claims that I don't get the attack after all, since he has not yet completed his charge.
Dheran 08-31-07, 12:29 PM	I really think the problem with Hold the Line is that the feat designer(s) just didn't think it through. They apparently intended this to be an alternative to readying a weapon against a charge, assuming a non-reach weapon that wasn't suitable for the "ready against a charge" approach. But they didn't write it up that way; hence the "immediately before the charge attack" problem. EvilVegan's got a creative, RAW legal defense combination, but will need armor spikes or Improved Unarmed Strike to make all three attacks because of the unusual way the feat specifies when to take its AoO.
Knightblde 08-31-07, 02:46 PM	immediately before the charge attack I think the designers were just reminding you that it happens BEFORE the charge attack, not after. That way if you kill the charger, you don't get hit. This makes much more sense than "charger must be close enough to hit you, and if that is inside the reach of your weapon, well what were you thinking taking this feat and using a reach weapon anyway?" Don't you think so?
Tsuul 08-31-07, 07:22 PM	I really think the problem with Hold the Line is that the feat designer(s) just didn't think it through. They apparently intended this to be an alternative to readying a weapon against a charge, assuming a non-reach weapon that wasn't suitable for the "ready against a charge" approach. But they didn't write it up that way; hence the "immediately before the charge attack" problem.Agreed. As it is written, I can charge through the threatened areas of 1000 soldiers (all of whom have HtL) and not get struck (from the HtL feat attack) unless I end my charge within their threatened area (when I make my attack upon their general). I still provoke normal movement AoOs of course. The "normal" portion of the feat tells us what core rules the feat is altering, that of taking AoOs for entering into squares. So it should be a movement based AoO. The feat does not alter the number of movement based AOOs I am able to make. Normally moving around an opponent in multiple threatened squares provokes multiple AoOs. The opponent is fortunatly only able to take advantage of one. Much like Telling Blow(for sneak attacks), this feat adds another instance of when you can take a certain benefit, it does not increase the number of times you are able to cash in on that benefit. As written HtL is useless for non reach weapons. Because AoOs happen before the trigger (entering into a threatened square before the charge attack is made). Personaly I just HR it to work with non reach weapons and let it work with donut reach weapons as well.
PhaedrusXY 08-31-07, 07:57 PM	One problem I have with the SRD is that it doesn't say the same thing that the PHB does in some instances. Most of the time that's because the SRD also contains the latest Errata. So the SRD is actually the more updated, corrected rule source, compared to the PHB.
StevenO 08-31-07, 08:30 PM	I'm with the three attack crowd. 1. AoO triggered by charging into a threatened space. 2. Readied action 3. AoO trigger by leaving threatened space. I'd also give you the benefits of setting for charge on all three attacks as there is no guarentee any of them actually hit. At worst I'd make sure they receive the damage bonus on the first hit. The part of HtL stating "Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved." is there to clarify that your AoO happens before they actually get the chance to hit you.
Defraeter 09-01-07, 02:59 AM	Just two, 1- Entering the threatened square If it's the foe against you have readied your action wich enter a threatened square (i.e. 10'), he trigger your readied action, so you take your turn i.e. you make YOUR SA (and modify your initiative as the same as your foe). As noted in the rules "An attack of opportunity is something a creature does during another creature's turn": it 's now your turn so you can't make a AoO... Of course, if another foe enter an area threatened, you can have an AoO. 2- Leave a threatened square A normal possible AoO is triggered Also having more than one attack for a move (outside a full round action) is something very... special! PS: sorry for my english, i'm french
jaelis 09-01-07, 10:00 AM	I'd also give you the benefits of setting for charge on all three attacks as there is no guarentee any of them actually hit. At worst I'd make sure they receive the damage bonus on the first hit. That's definitely a houserule. The rules say you only get that benefit on the readied attack.
jacobi289 09-01-07, 11:13 AM	Just two, As noted in the rules "An attack of opportunity is something a creature does during another creature's turn": it 's now your turn so you can't make a AoO... Of course, if another foe enter an area threatened, you can have an AoO. NO NO NO! If this were true, it would effectively mean the enemy gets 2 turns in one round, and that's definitely wrong. He charges, triggers your readied action, and it's now your turn? When does he get to finish his charge? After you? That would mean he got 2 turns that round. That being said, you get all 3 attacks, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.
aelryinth 09-01-07, 06:11 PM	3 attacks, all as cited above. DeFraeter's little note: Def, as soon as you are done taking your Readied action, it's now the opponent's turn again. So even if you only get one AoO per round, you still get both AoO!!! 1) AoO when entering threatened square (HTL) Uses up your AoO. 2) Readied action goes off. Your AoO reset. You hit him again...but this time for double dmg (ready action set against charge.) 3) AoO for leaving square. Note that you are still set against the charge, so double dmg, eats up a 'new' AoO. For maximum dmg, you'd want to 1) Take the readied action for when he enters a square you threaten. Double dmg. 2) Take the AoO from HtL. Double dmg from set. 3) Take the AoO from leaving a square you threaten. Double dmg from set. You'd need a 13 Dex, but that's a Combat Reflexes/HTL req, anyways. Btw, with Evasive Reflexes, you could use your second AoO to slide aside from his charge. Sidestep would do the same thing, but that requires dodge and mobility. Note also that if your enemy also has Reach, you can use the HTL AoO to also get out of reach of him, effectively hitting him with the readied action and getting away scott free. ==Aelryinth
Tsuul 09-02-07, 01:27 AM	aelryinth, how are you handling the HtL attack phrase "Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved."?
Defraeter 09-02-07, 04:12 AM	From aelryinthDeFraeter's little note: Def, as soon as you are done taking your Readied action, it's now the opponent's turn again. Yes, you're true. That's what i would say. PHB 160 "...anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition [i.e. condition you have carefully specified when you decide to take Ready: you must use a SA at your turn to prepare a SA Ready action or Move Ready action or Free Ready action].... If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still of doing so, he continues his action once you complete..." There's just one attack when the foe (which triggered Ready action) enter the threatened square: 1- It's not because a rule is not clearly write "black on white", that the rule don't exist. We must use "good sense" not to read into the rules but on contrary to read rules which try to simulate reality. It's a meaningless word to say a character can have 2 attacks AT THE SAME TIME, one based on reflex and one on a carefully planned action. It's not a full round action: when a rule seems to be "strange", that's it's a mistake somewhere... (i.e. like words of DD creators) 2- If you follow spirit of the rules, you couldn't stack 2 "bonus" which do the same thing(i.e. you couldn't stack for instance two Bonus "armor" for AC): You ought to take the "better" of the two's or the one which is obligatory (here the Ready action). Hold the line feat ( which simulate the abilities of old sparta i.e. "300's") enable you to have the possibility to react and strike upon a foe charging you, as long as you have AoO "in stock". (very interesting feat in couple with reach weapon to calm down a foe or make a double move toward a foe). Ready action against a charge prepare your character to receive a charge and hold a position: you can just make it one time but with the advantage of a double damage with a few reach weapons (like Halberd, Longspear, Spear, Trident, Ugrosh) Damage is doubled only for Ready action, not for other type of attacks: PHB p119: "Longspear: A longspear has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feets away with it, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe. If you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, you deal double damage on successful hit against a charging character." Double damage is only for ready action against a charge (and the one specific foe which has triggered the Ready action). For information, a Ranseur can't do the same: disarm yes, set against a charge no. ( PHB p120)
SALDAR 09-05-07, 12:03 PM	It is three. 1) The movement based AoO is for Leaving a threatened square. An opponent can only trigger this type of AoO once per round, barring Combat Reflexes. Even with Combat Reflexes you can only get one AoO for movement against an opponent per round. You do not get an AoO for entering and another for leaving. Whether entering or leaving it is still movement and you only get one AoO for it against that opponent. HtL simply changes when this movement provokes not how many AoOs you get for movement. If HtL allowed for two movement provoked AoOs against an opponent in the same round the Benefit section would say that you get an additional AoO and the Normal section of the feat description would state that you only get one AoO per round for movement. Neither section states this. The Benefit section states that you get an AoO when an opponent enters a threatened square and the Normal section states you get an AoO when leaving a threatened square. The Normal section is what a character without this feat is limited to. The Benefit section states what a character with this feat can do. Nowhere in the HtL description does it state that you get two AoOs for movement. So, one movement based AoO and one readied attack. That is two attacks. No more unless you have a feat that allows multiple AoOs for movement. HtL is not that feat. It changes when you make such an AoO, not how many AoOs you get.
StruckingFuggle 09-05-07, 12:44 PM	The Benefit section states that you get an AoO when an opponent enters a threatened square and the Normal section states you get an AoO when leaving a threatened square. No, the 'normal' section says "you only get an attack of opportunity that leaves a square you threaten". The "only" seems rather important, because that seems to rather clearly mean you get two AoOs. The normal one you can normally only make, and the additional special one from HTL.
Knightblde 09-05-07, 04:06 PM	This is incorrect: Even with Combat Reflexes you can only get one AoO for movement against an opponent per round. You do not get an AoO for entering and another for leaving. Whether entering or leaving it is still movement and you only get one AoO for it against that opponent. Saldar, read the rule carefuly, this is copied directly from the SRD, bolding done be me. From the SRD: Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. Notice it does not say: "moving in, out or through more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." It is a very important distiction. The point, IMHO, is to make sure that a large creature with a spiked chain doesn't get 3 AoO on someone closing to melee. As for the attacks: 1) HtL only gives you one AoO, no one is questioning that. "When an opponent enters a threatened square" If there is no reach or reach weapon for the defender than this would be it for AoOs. 2) Setting a readied action 'set spear vs. charge' does not give the defender an AoO, it gives him an actual attack. This also cannot be disputed. 3) Leaving a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity. This is normal per the Core Rules. If a defender has a reach weapon and the charger does not, The charger provokes an AoO when leaving the square two spaces away from the defender. It is important to note that in a 'normal' no reach charge, this would not happen hence the reason for HtL. Nowhere in HtL does it say, "This takes place of a normal AoO that you could get on any given Sunday" As such, you should not add that line. You are replacing 'Moving out of more than one square' with 'movement'. Doing so GREATLY changes the rules.
Kusari_Gamer 09-05-07, 04:41 PM	Notice it does not say: "moving in, out or through more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." This is because before Hold the Line there had never been a reason to say "moving in" when talking about AoO's because it didn't apply. Saldar's last post mirrors my opinion.
Knightblde 09-05-07, 05:28 PM	This is because before Hold the Line there had never been a reason to say "moving in" when talking about AoO's because it didn't apply. Saldar's last post mirrors my opinion. Right, so hold the line gives you a new way to get an AoO, and you feel it supersedes the old way, not adds to it? The sheer fact that you require Combat Reflexes to be able to take HtL would indicate you are mistaken. I know there is a feat out there that allows you to gain an AoO on a person if he misses you while you are fighting defensivly. Does that mean you now can't do that and gain an AoO when he casts a spell? Of course not. You are adding a line to HtL. And as noted before, you are confusing Moving with Moving out of a threatened square.
StruckingFuggle 09-05-07, 06:02 PM	This is because before Hold the Line there had never been a reason to say "moving in" when talking about AoO's because it didn't apply. Saldar's last post mirrors my opinion. And I've already shown that the wording of the feat strongly suggests he's wrong. Right, so hold the line gives you a new way to get an AoO, and you feel it supersedes the old way, not adds to it? Without basis, mind! Nowhere in the rules does it say "movement only provokes one AoO". The sheer fact that you require Combat Reflexes to be able to take HtL would indicate you are mistaken. I completely missed that argument, too. Thank you. :)
EvilVegan 09-06-07, 08:38 AM	Just wanted to chime in to say I'm loving this discussion. I've already got my answer (3), but please continue.
Tsuul 09-06-07, 01:42 PM	Even with Combat Reflexes you can only get one AoO for movement against an opponent per round. You do not get an AoO for entering and another for leaving. Whether entering or leaving it is still movement and you only get one AoO for it against that opponent. Saldar, read the rule carefully, this is copied directly from the SRD, bolding done be me. Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.Full text If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. The general rule is you can only make one AoO using Combat reflexes per opportunity. Movement out of squares and movement into squares is the same opportunity (movement). Right, so hold the line gives you a new way to get an AoO, and you feel it supersedes the old way, not adds to it?It adds. Just like telling blow adds another instance of when you can make a sneak attack. It doesn't double the sneak attack damage though. No, the 'normal' section says "you only get an attack of opportunity that leaves a square you threaten". The "only" seems rather important, because that seems to rather clearly mean you get two AoOs. The normal one you can normally only make, and the additional special one from HTL.Or it can mean that without HtL the only way you can take advantage of a movement based AoO is when an opponent exits a square you threaten. HtL adds to this to create 2 ways of gaining an AoO against that same opportunity. That of the opponent entering a threatened square. Which comes in pretty handy if you don't threaten the starting square at all. It's a really poorly written feat. And if we collectively gave the wording of this feat only five minutes worth of thought, then we have given way more thought to it then it's creator and subsequent editors.
StruckingFuggle 09-06-07, 02:11 PM	Movement out of squares and movement into squares is the same opportunity (movement). Where are you getting that "movement" is a single and blanket opportunity, an umbrella term that encompasses "moving out of a square" and "moving into a square" in regards to the AoO rules? Not even the rules you quote support this view. "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent" All it says is that moving out a a threatened square is the same opportunity, no matter how many squares you move out of. Nothing more. Or it can mean that without HtL the only way you can take advantage of a movement based AoO is when an opponent exits a square you threaten. HtL adds to this to create 2 ways of gaining an AoO against that same opportunity. That of the opponent entering a threatened square. Which comes in pretty handy if you don't threaten the starting square at all. Then why is it "you only get an attack of opportunity when X", rather than "you make your attack of opportunity when X, rather than Y"? I don't think that 'only' means what you're trying to make it to mean.
EvilVegan 09-06-07, 02:52 PM	The general rule is you can only make one AoO using Combat reflexes per opportunity. Movement out of squares and movement into squares is the same opportunity (movement).Please quote something that backs up the bolded portion. What you quoted says: Moving Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action. . . . Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. . . Hold the line is not moving out of a threatened square, it is a different opportunity than moving out of a square. It is an opportunity for entering the square, which is completely different in all ways. It is still movement, but nothing in the attack of opportunity says "movement provokes attacks of opportunities" only "movement out of threatened squares provokes attacks of opportunities". If you want to house rule that all movement is treated as the same opportunity, that is fine, but then would you also rule that movement into squares normally provokes attacks of opportunity? There are other things that cause you to provoke attacks of opportunity in ways that don't normally do so. HtL causes movement into squares while charging to provoke. You could still walk up normally and not provoke for movement into the square. Normally you only get an AoO against a character that exits a square. Now you also get an AoO against a character that enters a square. There is no additional text that makes it say "this is considered the same opportunity as someone moving out of a threatened square". There would need to be, since it is a different condition and therefore a different opportunity. Thanks to the feat you get an opportunity for them entering and another for them exitting. Now the real question is which attacks deal readied damage (if the weapon happens to deal extra damage when readied against a charge).
Tsuul 09-06-07, 02:57 PM	Where are you getting that "movement" is a single and blanket opportunity, an umbrella term that encompasses "moving out of a square" and "moving into a square" in regards to the AoO rules? From opportunity. Opportunity is a blanket statement. All it says is that moving out a a threatened square is the same opportunity, no matter how many squares you move out of. Nothing more.This is not an exception to how the number of AoOs can be made, this is a restatement/example of the general rule for combat reflexes and additional attacks of opportunity(CRaAAoO). Movement is brought up as an example of the general case. When you exit a square, you alway enter a square. There is no exception to this. It is one action. It is one opportunity. Moving multiple squares is one action, one opportunity. The movement example under CRaAAoO is trying to clarify that. Then why is it "you only get an attack of opportunity when X", rather than "you make your attack of opportunity when X, rather than Y"? I don't think that 'only' means what you're trying to make it to mean. It isn't changing the general rule about the number of AoOs you can make per given opportunity. Normal: You only get an attack of opportunity against a character that exits a square you threaten.Could also mean that there is only one way to generate AoOs in DnD, but I don't believe the author meant to say that, even though he/she obviously did. Did I mention poorly worded?
EvilVegan 09-06-07, 03:12 PM	I do see what you're saying. You're saying that since it says "Normally you only threaten for exiting" it necessarily groups the effects of hold the line with "movement out of squares" into a new category "movement". You probably have a point, but I don't think the RAW are as explicit in backing you up as they are in allowing the attack of opportunity as a new/different form of AoO, separate from leaving. Normal - > Exiting provokes Your stance: Normal + hold the line - > Exiting or entering provokes the same Our stance: Normal + hold the line - > entering and exiting provoke separately
Tsuul 09-06-07, 03:17 PM	Movement out of squares and movement into squares is the same opportunity (movement).Please quote something that backs up the bolded portion. Well considering the entirety of the moving(into) sqaure rules resides entirely within HtL; it may be impossible to find a quote equating both. One can not exit without entering. Drinking a potion provokes an AoO. Is tasting a different action?
Tsuul 09-06-07, 03:25 PM	Your stance: Normal + hold the line - > Exiting or entering provokes separately but one one can be taken advantage of. Our stance: Normal + hold the line - > entering and exiting provoke separatelyYup.Changing the wording to be more exact in red If I were to change the feat, I would houserule the Normal section of the feat away, and change it to a charge based AoO that happens immediately before the attack instead of a movement based AoO.
Knightblde 09-06-07, 05:31 PM	First of all, "normal" as described under feats does not matter. You can always delete the 'normal' part of a feat because it is written elseware. Doing so may make your life easier. When you exit a square, you alway enter a square. There is no exception to this. It is one action. It is one opportunity. Moving multiple squares is one action, one opportunity. The movement example under CRaAAoO is trying to clarify that. Second, a character can exit without entering and vs versa. I know you are laughing at me right now, but follow the points and you will see. You state there is one type of 'square' movement while I will prove there are infact four, very different, very important types of square movement. 1) I can exit a square you threaten while entering a square that you do not. (Point A) 2) I can enter a square you threaten while exiting a square that you do not. (Point B) 3) I can exit a square you do not threaten while entering a square that you do not threaten. (Point B) 4) I can exit a square you threaten while entering a square you threaten. (Point A/C) Point A: I would provoke an attack of opportunity Point B: I would not provoke an attack of opportunity Point C: I would provoke an attack of opportunity if you have HtL. All of the above assumes only two combatants and that I am charging you. As far as RAW, I think three attacks have been proven. All that said, if you want to house rule that HtL REPLACES the movement feat, that is fine. I have no issue with any house rule. I would only suggest not to bother beacause of the rare instance that it will actually come up. If the defender has spent the feat, why not let them tear up their opponent that was unlucky enough to charge a trained combatant with a reach weapon out and ready to use?
Tsuul 09-06-07, 08:37 PM	First of all, "normal" as described under feats does not matter. You can always delete the 'normal' part of a feat because it is written elseware. Doing so may make your life easier.If the "normal" section were deleted, then equal or greater weight to the argument that the AoO is for charging would be created. Second, a character can exit without entering and vs versa. I know you are laughing at me right now, but follow the points and you will see. You state there is one type of 'square' movement while I will prove there are infact four, very different, very important types of square movement.<points>Curiosity at first reading this but not laughter. Those points are not based on movement, but based upon crossing the edge of a threatened area. Simply moving from one square to another, it is impossible to not exit as you enter or vice versa. This is why it is one opportunity. Ignoring HtL and only dealing with the PHB for a moment: Should I enter your threatened area continue moving so I exit your threatened area, then enter and exit again all within one move action, I can only be attacked once for moving, even though I crossed your threatened line multiple times. I did however provoke multiple times(once for each square exited in a threatened area). I have to change my one post above which might make things clearer. My stance: Normal + hold the line - > Exiting or entering provokes separately but one one can be taken advantage of.
SALDAR 09-06-07, 09:04 PM	Right, so hold the line gives you a new way to get an AoO, and you feel it supersedes the old way, not adds to it? Correct. Nowhere in the HtL feat does it say anything about adding an extra AoO for movement. It says you get an AoO when the opponent enters a threatened square, not that you get that AoO for entering in addition to an AoO for leaving. The sheer fact that you require Combat Reflexes to be able to take HtL would indicate you are mistaken. And Cleave has Power Attack as a prerequisite but Power Attack provides no extra benefit to Cleave as you are suggesting with CR and HtL. Just because I am using Cleave does not mean Power Attack comes into use at any point or that it changes the benefits stated under Cleave. Combat Reflexes allows you to make more AoOs in a round but it does not allow you to make multiple AoOs for the same opportunity. This still applies when using HtL. Per the SRD: This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). I know there is a feat out there that allows you to gain an AoO on a person if he misses you while you are fighting defensivly. Does that mean you now can't do that and gain an AoO when he casts a spell? Of course not. Because they are two seperate opportunities, a missed attack and casting a spell. Moving into a square and moving out of a square as part of a single action is only one opportunity since movement provides only one opportunity per round no matter the distance moved. You are adding a line to HtL. And as noted before, you are confusing Moving with Moving out of a threatened square. I am adding nothing to HtL, you are. You are saying that HtL allows an extra AoO when it does not. It simply changes at which point during movement an opponent provokes an AoO. You are taking a single opportunity and allowing two AoOs to be made, which is not supported by any of the rules discussed in this thread. HtL changes leaving a threatened square, quoted so many times previously for support of an extra AoO for movement, into the phrase enters a threatened square. Normally you can only do the former as a movement provoked AoO but HtL allows you to do the latter as movement provoked AoO. Nowhere do the rules allow for two movement based AoOs in a round. In fact, as I quoted above, the rules explicitly state the opposite.
Knightblde 09-06-07, 09:40 PM	Our stance: Normal + hold the line - > entering and exiting provoke separately Looks like we will have to agree to disagree because I agree with the above.
ToastedAmphibian 09-06-07, 09:44 PM	Movment is movment, whether into or out of a square, and it is movment that provoke, but only once per round Uh, wait.... did you just say that, regardless of how, anyone moveing into or out of a square provokes an AoO? Yes, i think you just did...... You, sir, are hereby disqualified! Edit:To clarify yoru statment Moving into a square=movment Moving out of a square=movment A=B B=C so C=A meaning Moving into a square=Moving out of a square Moving out of a square I threaten=Moving into a square I threaten Thus i get an attack of opportunity EVERY time someone enters a square i threaten. Also, a 5 foot move is movement, and movment is movment, and movment provokes, so a 5 foot step provokes, especially if they use a 5 foot step to ENTER my threatened area...
StruckingFuggle 09-06-07, 09:52 PM	Correct. Nowhere in the HtL feat does it say anything about adding an extra AoO for movement. Movement DOES NOT provoke AoOs. Certain kinds of movement do. In fact, prior to HtL, only one kind of movement did. Is there evidence that moving does not provoke AoOs on its own? Yes. Is there evidence that moving can provoke AoOs? Yes. Therefore, only certain kinds of movement provoke AoOs? Yes. I would interpret this as evidence that "moving out of a threatened square" is a specific act, a specific sort of movement that provokes AoOs. Easy enough. But what this does show is specific forms of movement can be unique opportunities, and provoke AoOs. It's not impossible, even by the rules, for two things that fall under "movement" to provide AoOs, since movement is not an opportunity (Also, someone said that it's the same because you move into a square when you exit one? - this is not the case as far as AoOs go with HtL. It can't be. You provoke for entering a threatened area, and if you're entering someone's threatened area, it's tautologically impossible to be exiting their threatened area at the same time.) Let's try an experiment. Let's say someone had, somehow, a way to make an unarmed strike as a ranged attack, and they didn't have IUS. You're adjacent to them and armed. How many AoOs would they provoke for attacking you with that ability? And Cleave has Power Attack as a prerequisite but Power Attack provides no extra benefit to Cleave as you are suggesting with CR and HtL. Just because I am using Cleave does not mean Power Attack comes into use at any point or that it changes the benefits stated under Cleave. Combat Reflexes allows you to make more AoOs in a round but it does not allow you to make multiple AoOs for the same opportunity. This still applies when using HtL. No extra benefit? What about all the Cleave / Power Attack synergy? It doesn't change the benefits of Cleave, but it makes you far more likely to reap them. I am adding nothing to HtL, you are. You are saying that HtL allows an extra AoO when it does not. It simply changes at which point during movement an opponent provokes an AoO. (...) HtL changes leaving a threatened square, quoted so many times previously for support of an extra AoO for movement, into the phrase enters a threatened square. And where is your evidence that this feat re-writes AoO rules for the feat-holder instead of adding to them? You are taking a single opportunity and allowing two AoOs to be made, which is not supported by any of the rules discussed in this thread. It's more supported than saying both movements are the same opportunity... >.> Nowhere do the rules allow for two movement based AoOs in a round. In fact, as I quoted above, the rules explicitly state the opposite. No they don't. They explicitly state that the same AoO-provoking condition (leaving a threatened square) only provokes an AoO once per opponent per movement no matter how many of their threatened squares you leave. This has nothing to do with HtL, since it's not concerned with leaving squares (but it does prevent you from making multiple HtL AoOs if they enter multiple squares you threaten on a charge.)
SALDAR 09-06-07, 11:15 PM	Movement DOES NOT provoke AoOs. Certain kinds of movement do. In fact, prior to HtL, only one kind of movement did. Now there are two kinds that provoke but nothing in the HtL feat seperates them into different opportunities that allow two AoOs. Let's try an experiment. Let's say someone had, somehow, a way to make an unarmed strike as a ranged attack, and they didn't have IUS. You're adjacent to them and armed. How many AoOs would they provoke for attacking you with that ability? It is a single action so it is only a single opportunity and would provoke only one AoO. Of course you knew that. One action, one opportunity, one AoO. No extra benefit? What about all the Cleave / Power Attack synergy? It doesn't change the benefits of Cleave, but it makes you far more likely to reap them. More likely to combine them, yes, but you do not automatically gain the benefits of PA because you are using Cleave. The suggestion put forth with CR and HtL was that since CR was a prerequisite for HtL that the opportunity provided by HtL, enters a square, automatically uses an extra AoO provided by CR in addition to the leaving a square opportunity. The feat states nothing of the sort. That is pure assumption. And where is your evidence that this feat re-writes AoO rules for the feat-holder instead of adding to them? It is the total lack of evidence that proves my point. The HtL feat description lacks any statement that the AoO provided by the feat is in addition to the normal AoO provided by leaving a square, thus allowing two movement based AoOs. HtL says you can make an AoO when the opponent enters a threatened square. That is the only benefit it provides. No extra AoOs. It's more supported than saying both movements are the same opportunity... >.> My copy must be lacking all the footnotes that point to this alleged support. [No they don't. They explicitly state that the same AoO-provoking condition (leaving a threatened square) only provokes an AoO once per opponent per movement no matter how many of their threatened squares you leave. This has nothing to do with HtL, since it's not concerned with leaving squares (but it does prevent you from making multiple HtL AoOs if they enter multiple squares you threaten on a charge.) Actions provoke AoOs. Movement is one of those actions. If an opponent enters and then leaves a threatened square in the same round then your opponent is using only one action. As with your unarmed ranged attack example, one action provides only one opportunity and only one attack for that opportunity. Nothing in HtL states that it provides multiple opportunities for the same action or that it allows for multiple AoOs for a single action. These are the rules. If you choose to change them, go for it.
Tsuul 09-07-07, 02:31 AM	ToastedAmphibian, ease back a lil on the happy juice. Who wrote that? It may have been in one of my quick revisions but I can't remember penning that line. But the lines Moving into a square=Moving out of a square Moving out of a square I threaten=Moving into a square I threaten vaguely resemble Step one: Steal underwear. Step two: ? Step 3: Profit. Oh, to add a persons name to a quote, you change {quote} to {quote=ToastedAmpibian} and of course change the {} to [].
Knightblde 09-07-07, 02:49 PM	This is an older quote, but I just reread it and thought of something. Even with Combat Reflexes you can only get one AoO for movement against an opponent per round. You do not get an AoO for entering and another for leaving. Whether entering or leaving it is still movement and you only get one AoO for it against that opponent. HtL does not give you additional AoOs. This may be part of the confusion. Combat Reflexes does give you additional AoOs. HtL makes it so opponents PROVOKE attacks of opportunity. We have been interchanging that through this debate, but it might clear things up for some. It is still 3 attacks: 1) Opponent Provokes AoO when they enter a threatened square (HtL) 2) Readied action takes place, which is a set vs charge (double damage) 3) Opponent Provokes AoO when they leave a threatened square (Normal AoO Rules to have HtL you need to have dex +1 and CR, therefor you have a second AoO you can make in a round. This of course assumes that you have not used it yet.) It looks like the only point for the side that states 2 attacks is that 1 and 3 are merged. I don't see how you can feel that way other than to incorrectly assume moving out of a threatened square is = to moving into a threatened square. But you are free to rule as your gaming group wishes. Happy Gaming!
SALDAR 09-07-07, 03:56 PM	It looks like the only point for the side that states 2 attacks is that 1 and 3 are merged. I don't see how you can feel that way other than to incorrectly assume moving out of a threatened square is = to moving into a threatened square. But you are free to rule as your gaming group wishes. Happy Gaming! It is not that they are merged it is that both are part of the same act of moving and it is moving that provokes. If you make an AoO when your opponent enters a threatened square then you have already used the opportunity provided by the opponent's moving and continued movement by your opponent does not provide another opportunity. Moving is a single continuous act and only provides one opportunity per round for an AoO, not two. HtL says nothing about creating a second opportunity to make an AoO during the same round for moving. HtL changes the circumstances of that opportunity from leaving a square to enters a square but it does not grant an extra opportunity for moving. May your games be long and your sleep short!
Knightblde 09-07-07, 04:16 PM	HtL changes the circumstances of that opportunity from leaving a square to enters a square That is what I was refering to with Merging the AoOs. I do not agree that it changes the circumstances, I believe it adds to them.
SALDAR 09-07-07, 04:32 PM	That is what I was refering to with Merging the AoOs. I do not agree that it changes the circumstances, I believe it adds to them. There is nothing in the feat description that specifies this to be an additional opportunity that grants a second AoO for moving.
EvilVegan 09-07-07, 04:32 PM	It is not that they are merged it is that both are part of the same act of moving and it is moving OUT OF THREATENED SQUARES that provokes. If you make an AoO when your opponent enters a threatened square THANKS TO THE ADDTIONAL OPPORTUNITY GRANTED BY HOLD THE LINE then you have NOT already used the opportunity provided by the opponent's moving OUT OF A THREATENED SQUARE and continued movement OUT OF THREATENED SQUARES BEYOND THE FIRST by your opponent do provide another opportunity but you may only make one attack of opportunity for movement OUT of squares. Moving is a single continuous act and NORMALLY only provides one opportunity per round for an AoO, not two. HtL says IT GRANTS AN opportunity to make an AoO FOR ENTERING A SQUARE ON A CHARGE. Corrected. You keep saying movement provokes. It does not. Only 1 type of movement provokes. Movement out of squares. If you have hold the line other people also provoke a different opportunity for movement into squares while charging.
EvilVegan 09-07-07, 04:42 PM	There is nothing in the feat description that specifies this to be an additional opportunity that grants a second AoO for moving. The feat specifies what you can do. It does not specify that you can't also make an attack of opportunity for movement out of squares. It also does not specify that it is included in the "movement out of sqaures" provoking only 1 attack of opportunity. It would need to for you to be correct. You are falsely grouping all movement. It is not grouped. They are separate opportunities. 1 for hold the line vs charge. 1 for movement out of a square. Does a person with robilar's gambit and karmic strike get 3 attacks of opportunity for someone striking him unarmed (assuming they're not proficient)? The answer is "yes"! They get one for them attacking unarmed, they get one for them hitting someone with karmic strike, they get one for robilar's gambit. Feats can cause people to provoke in situations where they normally wouldn't. If you want to group all movement into the category "movement out of threatened squares" you are house ruling. Thank you.
StruckingFuggle 09-07-07, 05:11 PM	Well technically, the new rules are Karmic and Robilor's don't stack. I disagree, but probably better to avoid the debate ... Someone without IUS who attacks you with either of the feats active still provokes 2 AoOs, though.
Defraeter 09-07-07, 08:22 PM	Feats can cause people to provoke in situations where they normally wouldn't. If you want to group all movement into the category "movement out of threatened squares" you are house ruling. Wrong. It's you EvilVegan who search to obtain an "advantage" over the rules. When some of my players tell me they have "found a rule" which allow more attacks (i don't know why, but it's often for more attacks...:D ): i'm cautious. There 's something rotten in apple realms! I change my mind and agree with SALDAR, Tsuul and etc.... . A action of movement may cause one attack of opportunity (and just one) and how the character move (charge, the square used, ...) will or not provoke this case of opportunity. We have the same problem than the wargames which can't be played simultaneous. Don't forget rule try to simulate reality: the opportunity is here to simulate "played simultaneous" in a game not simultaneous. So the defender may react one time for each action and the question is what is an action? An action is not "i move from the square A to the adjoining square B" but "i cross 5 squares to melee this foe". Here in DnD an action is a (action of) movement, a SA or a full round action. A action of movement is naturally complex, so rule describes the cases which may trigger an opportunity. As a square has 4 sides, the side chosen to trigger has a tactical impact. When a character leave a "zone of control" of a foe, he risks to be slashed because he pays more attention where he goes to than where he come from. But if he makes a cautious step (one square move), he's alert and don't risk so. If his opponent has a long reach, the character must take risk to engage in melee (try to engage in an unarmed strike a foe with a staff and you'll see...). Htl feat allow to react defensively "all the time", because of training, to a charge. It's soon a powered feat to slash those who would to make profit of their long range attack... (for instance). In no simultaneous wargames, opportunity were created to balance fight and give more realism, not to afford multi attack. One AoO for one action for one foe is realistic and logical with DnD rules. Just a thing, a charge is special full round action, not an action of movement, so... But what bother me is you agree that a character can have 2 attacks (i.e. at the same time) when a foe entered a threatened square (with Htl feat and Ready action against charge): it's absolutely not realistic!!!! How could you explain a character strike with reflex and, in the same time, fix carefully his long spear on the floor to receive the charge? hu? Better than a ring of haste! May be the foe is paralysed or wait with fair play that the defender prepare his second strike...:confused: We are not in Manga, we play DnD, a game which simulate and even if our characters have big powers, they can't do anything. Otherwise, we don't need rules...
ToastedAmphibian 09-07-07, 09:30 PM	A normal charging character goes 60ft max in one round,one round being 6 secounds. Hes moving at 10 ft per second. All 3 attacks would hapen during the last 10ft (1 second) of movment. Could you stab someone with a spear 3 times in one second? no. Could you stab them, then stick the end in the ground, and twist in one second? Sure. If a person runs into a spear at 10 ft away, and then continues running at you through teh spear, would they risk grater injury than if they just stoped after impailing themselves? DnD does a **** poor job of simulating reality. If you charge through a spear and take ANY peircing damage, you are not finishing your charge. Not unless you completly break the spear.
StruckingFuggle 09-07-07, 09:31 PM	A action of movement may cause one attack of opportunity (and just one) and how the character move (charge, the square used, ...) will or not provoke this case of opportunity. That's a ... nice ... houserule, but not an interpretation of the rules that's supported by the rules. But what bother me is you agree that a character can have 2 attacks (i.e. at the same time) when a foe entered a threatened square (with Htl feat and Ready action against charge): it's absolutely not realistic!!!! ...Isn't that more an argument for HtL and Ready vs. Charge not working together than HtL and Regular AoOs working together? How could you explain a character strike with reflex and, in the same time, fix carefully his long spear on the floor to receive the charge? hu? Better than a ring of haste! The way I see it, if you must, is that it's one hit, that deals extra damage, modeled as two attacks, because you're extra ready to attack them. Or, consider, "set against a charge" is "I ready this weapon to attack the first / a specific enemy who charges me when they get in range" ... you don't need to take it as soon as they enter a square you threaten, just "once they come in range" ... and it takes 'em time to cross through a square you threaten, they don't do it instantaneously. Let us assume we have a square of threat. It has an entry point (ep), an 'inside' (in), and an exit point (xp). You have to enter at the ep, cross across the inside, and then leave at the xp. So it goes (EP)( I N )(XP) ... HtL comes when they cross from EP to IN, normal movement AoOs come from when they cross from IN to XP, and the attack from Ready comes sometime while they're in the IN region, not necessarily when they cross from the EP to IN. They don't even have to be simultaneous. And if you consider that with proper training (BAB and Feats), someone can make 10 (and that's lowballing it and not even trying) attacks (granted, at 16th level) in his turn (plus any AoOs!)... attacking that fast is supported by / plausible under the rules ... attacking twice (HTL + ready vs. charge) in that small a span of time isn't at all implausible. We are not in Manga, we play DnD, a game which simulate and even if our characters have big powers, they can't do anything. Otherwise, we don't need rules... ...what?
StruckingFuggle 09-07-07, 09:33 PM	DnD does a **** poor job of simulating reality. If you charge through a spear and take ANY peircing damage, you are not finishing your charge. Not unless you completly break the spear. You can model that, too, by throwing in the Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat into the mix, too. :)
ToastedAmphibian 09-07-07, 09:44 PM	You can model that, too, by throwing in the Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat into the mix, too. :) ooooo i like that... Why the hell is it in the psionics section if its a general feat! Anyways, HTL hit for damge Readied action, Hit for damage AoO stand still... eh? like that combo though. Makes reach weapons usefull for frail characters.
StruckingFuggle 09-07-07, 10:07 PM	ooooo i like that... Why the hell is it in the psionics section if its a general feat! Because it was printed in the XPH.
Knightblde 09-07-07, 10:45 PM	But what bother me is you agree that a character can have 2 attacks (i.e. at the same time) when a foe entered a threatened square (with Htl feat and Ready action against charge): it's absolutely not realistic!!!! How could you explain a character strike with reflex and, in the same time, fix carefully his long spear on the floor to receive the charge? hu? Better than a ring of haste! I don't need to set a spear vs charge to get the two attacks that you don't like. I could do it by having a reach weapon and HtL with nothing readied. I could do it by haveing a reach weapon, armor spikes and a readied action to attack someone that enters a peticular adjacent square that I name. In this case I do not need HtL. What about someone with Combat Reflexes that attacks a character that pulls a scroll from a bag (Provokes AoO) and then casts the spell from that scroll (Provokes AoO)? Would they not get two attacks? Your thoughts are not based on the rules and are incorrect.
Tsuul 09-08-07, 01:28 AM	Homework assignment: -What is the purpose of the underlined line below? -Why was the quote below written as a general rule with a second clarifying sentence given to movement? -Why didn't the designers, if they only meant this to apply to exiting multiple squares threatened by an opponent, just say only that in a sentence 1/4 as long? This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
ToastedAmphibian 09-08-07, 02:00 AM	ToastedAmphibian, ease back a lil on the happy juice. Who wrote that? It may have been in one of my quick revisions but I can't remember penning that line. But the lines vaguely resemble Step one: Steal underwear. Step two: ? Step 3: Profit. Oh, to add a persons name to a quote, you change {quote} to {quote=ToastedAmpibian} and of course change the {} to []. but.... i like happy juice! And no, it resembles something more like this If: A+X=A+X (Law of identity?) And: X=Y=Z (Quoted Claim) Then: A+Y=A+Z (Algebraic Substitution)
StruckingFuggle 09-08-07, 03:25 AM	Homework assignment: -What is the purpose of the underlined line below? -Why was the quote below written as a general rule with a second clarifying sentence given to movement? -Why didn't the designers, if they only meant this to apply to exiting multiple squares threatened by an opponent, just say only that in a sentence 1/4 as long? -The purpose is to make it so that for a single action (e.g. moving) no matter how many times you trigger an opportunity (e.g. moving out of a square an opponent threatens), you only provoke a single AoO. - The "clarifying sentence" is what is generally called an example; furthermore - In case future supplements they knew were coming made other actions where a single action could provoke the same opportunity multiple times? Funny, in writing this post, I finally find the language to express my point properly. Actions provoke opportunities. You cannot take advantage twice of the same opportunity a single action provokes. This is clear in the rules. What this also makes clear to me is that while a single action can provoke multiple opportunities (perfect example: movement), it is not the action that you can only take advantage of once, it's the type of opportunity it offers. For example ... If Action A provoked three opportunities, 1, 2, and 3, where 1 and 2 were the same opportunity, then you could take advantage of 1 and of either 2 or 3, but not both. Because 1 is a different opportunity than 2 and 3 are. Let's quote that feat again, eh? "This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity" ... for a given opportunity, not a given action. "An opponent moving out of a square you threaten" is an opportunity. "but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity)." Different opportunities = more AoOs you can take advantage of. Why point this out? If they take another action, it's a different opportunity. If they move through your threat radius again, it's a separate action. The same action can provoke multiple different opportunities. "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." "Moving out of more than one square"! "Moving out of more than one square" is an opportunity. Not only that, but it's a specific thing that happens during movement. A distinct opportunity from "charging an opponent who has the Hold The Line feat", which is a specific and different thing that happens during movement.
Defraeter 09-08-07, 03:25 AM	I don't need to set a spear vs charge to get the two attacks that you don't like. I could do it by having a reach weapon and HtL with nothing readied. You can't do the same. It's the same action (charge) so you have a case of opportunity when the foe entered (Htl) OR when he leaves the square threatened. Not the two. I could do it by haveing a reach weapon, armor spikes and a readied action to attack someone that enters a peticular adjacent square that I name. In this case I do not need HtL.. Yes, you're right. You have one attack when he leaves the square threatened which is an AoO with your reach weapon. You have another attack when the foe entered the square adjacent threatened by armor spike: you'll take your turn and make a SA for that. What about someone with Combat Reflexes that attacks a character that pulls a scroll from a bag (Provokes AoO) and then casts the spell from that scroll (Provokes AoO)? Would they not get two attacks? You have 2 actions: 1) "pull a scroll from a bag" is an action of movement 2) "casts the spell from that scroll" is a SA So 2 AoO. Your thoughts are not based on the rules and are incorrect. No. I read the rules and the gap between us is i don't search "to take an advantage over the rules" to obtain more... just look if it's realistic and why a rule had been written like that.
Defraeter 09-08-07, 03:58 AM	Actions provoke opportunities. You cannot take advantage twice of the same opportunity a single action provokes. This is clear in the rules. What this also makes clear to me is that while a single action can provoke multiple opportunities (perfect example: movement), it is not the action that you can only take advantage of once, it's the type of opportunity it offers. You turn the rules. An AoO may be provoked by an action (of movement, SA or full round), but you have or not one or more "opportunity" to trigger it. You play on the confusion between AoO, opportunity and case in which an opportunity is triggered. Because action of movement is complex, there are multiple case in which an opportunity is triggered. "This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity" ... for a given opportunity, not a given action. "An opponent moving out of a square you threaten" is an opportunity. No. It's just a case when an opportunity may be triggered. An action give you or not an opportunity to make one AoO. "A given opportunity" exist or not for an action: all the actions don't give an opportunity. After, for action of movement, the opportunity may have more than one case to be triggered. The same action can provoke multiple different opportunities. The heart of problem. It's not the rule.
StruckingFuggle 09-08-07, 04:05 AM	The heart of problem. It's not the rule. I disagree. Not only that, but I believe I've made an argument for how it is the rule. So, citing the rules, it's your turn. Show how it's not the rule.
EvilVegan 09-08-07, 09:09 AM	It is hard to prove a negative. Anyway. It isn't the same opportunity. Hold the line creates a new opportunity where one did not exist before. Prior to hold the line the only movement that provoked an attack of opportunity was movement out of squares. If you take the feat a new opportunity arises. There is an opportunity when someone enters a square while charging and another opportunity when someone exits the square. These are not the same opportunity. Hold the line does not affect the rules on attacks of opportunity, you still can't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving out of more than one square of an enemy, but you now provoke for moving into the square while charging and also separately for exiting any squares. Nice house rules. It's you EvilVegan who search to obtain an "advantage" over the rules.Um... There is no reasont to get snippy. Do you accuse people of searching to obtain an advantage over the rules when they take two-weapon fighting and fight with two weapons? Do you insult people who play wizards with the intention of using their spells? I took a feat to grant extra attacks of opportunity. I use a reach weapon to give me extra attacks of opportunity. I'm not bending/breaking rules to do this, that is what they're supposed to do. Since you don't like it go ahead and change it for your games, but you haven't shown any rules that don't specifically affect only movement out of squares. Everything you've shown relies on movement out of squares, where it is obvious that hold the line is not movement out of squares. You then go one step further and equate the two with no rules supporting this. And then you go even further and insult me. Have fun!
Knightblde 09-08-07, 10:40 AM	Only One Action Defense So now the "only one action" defense is gaining ground. Let me see if I understand your point. Doing something is only one action as long as you don't do something else? If this is the case, which I am sure after reading this it won't be, then if an attacker is in a square I threaten and uses a ranged attack 3 times, I would only be allowed 1 AoO. Of course I would be allowed 3. The fact that it is the same type of action means nothing. Movement has special rules. These rules have been stated clearly. Following are ALL the AoO rules, for reference. Attacks Of Opportunity Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. Threatened Squares You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity. Reach Weapons Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more. Note: When determining reach, each square of diagonal distance is measured as 5 feet. This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet. Provoking an Attack of Opportunity Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square. Moving Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action. Performing a Distracting Act Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity. Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule. Making an Attack of Opportunity An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round. An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn). Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. Change Base Rule Defense The other major defense of it only being 2 attacks is to change the base rule. The base rule, as noted above, is "anytime an opponent leaves a threatened square he provokes an AoO, he only provokes one AoO from each combatant that threatens him, no matter how many times he leaves a threatened square." The change is to take what the feat gives you, "anytime a charging opponent enters a threatened square he provokes an AoO," and merge it with the base rule, making only one rule. The new rule would be, "anytime a charging opponent enters or exits a threaten square he provokes an AoO. This is only possible once per combatant." If you apply the Change Base Rule Defense to this feat, why do you not do it to other feats? Lets take Improved Toughness. With this feat you get +1 HP per HD. This is just like gaining +2 Con. So therefore would you say that since you get +1 HP/HD via this feat, that you don't get it via +2 Con? Of course not. But we are appling the same logic to both feats. One seems reasonable, the other outrageous. HtL is only 2 sentences long. The First tells us what benefit we gain. The second tells us when it happens. That benefit does not fit under the movement rules of AoO. Infact, I just noticed something VERY important: Provoking an Attack of Opportunity Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square. There are two different kinds of actions in this example. The first is the Charge. This counts as your performing an action within a threatened square provocation. Normally a charge does not provoke an AoO. With HtL it now does. The charger is still charging when he enters the first threatened square. AoO happen before the action is completed, so it would happen before the charger could leave this first threatened square. The Second AoO is from movement out of a square, which has nothing to do with charge. This counts as your moving out of a threatened square threatened square provocation Remember this is only happening beacause our defender has a reach weapon. Normally during a charge one would not leave a threatened square. I don't know how you could refute this. But I am looking forward to seeing what the "Two Attack Crowd" comes up with. No. I read the rules and the gap between us is i don't search "to take an advantage over the rules" to obtain more... just look if it's realistic and why a rule had been written like that. Please do be a jerk. The last thing I do is look for a more advantageous way of looking at the rules. Most of the time I am trying to limit what people can do. We simply disagree on the intent and meaning of the rule. I like to debate the rules. It helps me look deeper into each one. Before I post anything I study the rule in question, the similar rules, and often look up words in the dictionary and PHB glossary to make sure I am not just misunderstanding. I may be wrong, I have been before, but I assure you it is not because I am looking for any advantage.
Tsuul 09-08-07, 03:31 PM	If they move through your threat radius again, it's a separate action. This may be where we all disagree. If an opponent uses one move action to move through your threat radius, exit it, turn and move through it again on the same move action, it's one opportunity by the rules. I believe even a double move action would only receive 1 AoO. If you take the feat a new opportunity arises. There is an opportunity when someone enters a square while charging and another opportunity when someone exits the square. These are not the same opportunity. Hold the line does not affect the rules on attacks of opportunity, you still can't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving out of more than one square of an enemy, but you now provoke for moving into the square while charging and also separately for exiting any squares.Each movement out of threatened squares provokes, each square is separate and distinct. You only get advantage for one though; so combat reflexes is useless. Why must it be useful for everything? Normally a charge does not provoke an AoO. With HtL it now does. Now you're out of the "it's a movement based AoO" and onto "its a charge based AoO". Which is a whole different ball of monkey fur. Tack on the additions conditions and you have your 3 attacks. It should be that way, but since the feat is so poorly written, it isn't. The feat would have to be a charge based AoO instead of a Movement based one. Change the normal line and the feat works that way. Which reminds me, I paid money for that feat, I want WotC to fix it, not me. GL all
EvilVegan 09-08-07, 03:55 PM	This may be where we all disagree. If an opponent uses one move action to move through your threat radius, exit it, turn and move through it again on the same move action, it's one opportunity by the rules. I believe even a double move action would only receive 1 AoO. Each movement out of threatened squares provokes, each square is separate and distinct. You only get advantage for one though; so combat reflexes is useless. Why must it be useful for everything?It doesn't have to be useful for everything, it just applies when it says it applies. Moving into Tsquares while charging = opportunity Moving out of Tsquares = opportunity There is nothing that shows these two to be the same opportunity. There is nothing that groups all movement with movement out of Tsquares. The only opportunity that has a limiting restriction is moving out of Tsquares, which is limited to one AoO per opponent per round, regardless of how many Tsquares you move out of. Not having a similar limit and not being combined with moving out of Tsquares, hold the line works as it is written and creates an opportunity when someone enters a Tsquare while charging. Now you're out of the "it's a movement based AoO" and onto "its a charge based AoO". Which is a whole different ball of monkey fur. Tack on the additions conditions and you have your 3 attacks. It should be that way, but since the feat is so poorly written, it isn't. The feat would have to be a charge based AoO instead of a Movement based one. Change the normal line and the feat works that way.It is a charge based AoO. It is a movement based AoO. You only get it when someone charges into a square you threaten. They move while charging at you which, thanks to HtL, creates an opportunity to attack. Then they move out of your Tsquare, creating another opportunity. Dude 1 charges Dude 2: 1 - - - - - 2 > 1 - - - - 2 - > 1 - - - 2 - - > 1 - - 2 - - - > 1 - 2 -> Enters threatened square, provokes - - - - > 1 2 -> Exits threatened square, provokes Two separate opportunities, one for the feat, one for normal movement out of threatened squares.
StruckingFuggle 09-08-07, 04:04 PM	This may be where we all disagree. If an opponent uses one move action to move through your threat radius, exit it, turn and move through it again on the same move action, it's one opportunity by the rules. Huh? I agree with that.
Knightblde 09-08-07, 04:33 PM	This may be where we all disagree. If an opponent uses one move action to move through your threat radius, exit it, turn and move through it again on the same move action, it's one opportunity by the rules. I believe even a double move action would only receive 1 AoO. This is an interpritation that is incorrect. In all normal instances you are correct. But if three conditions are met you will in fact provoke another opportunity. Condition 1) You are charging Condition 2) You enter a square your opponent threatens Condition 3) Your opponent has the HtL feat The normal rules state you provoke an AoO when you LEAVE a threatened square. They also state that you cannot provoke this twice per movement. HtL ADDS moving INTO a threatened square, which is different than moving out of. This is where your misinterpritation of the rule confuses everything.
Tsuul 09-08-07, 05:40 PM	- - - > 1 - 2 -> Enters threatened square, provokes If dude 2 has a reach weapon and dude 1 just crosses over the threatened area, dude 2 can never ever ever get his AoO for hold the line in this example. The wording of HtL makes it so the AoO happens only immediatly before the attack. Since dude 1 has a square left to travel, the attack isn't coming yet. I can "charge" through 1000 people's threatened areas, each person having HtL, and I could not provoke a single HtL AoO because of that one limiting clause. Dude 2's threat radius in red. (Just cause I learned you can use colors in codeblocks) Dude 1 charges Dude 2: 1 - - - - - 2 > 1 - - - - 2 - > 1 - - - 2 - - > 1 - - 2 - - - > 1 - 2 -> Enters threatened square, No HtL - - - - > 1 2 -> Exits threatened square, provokes. Enters a threatend square before the attack, provokes. Same "opportunity" caused both provocations, crossing the line.
Tsuul 09-08-07, 05:44 PM	HtL ADDS moving INTO a threatened square, which is different than moving out of. This is where your misinterpritation of the rule confuses everything.As shown above, it's the same line. The same "movement" creating 2 separate ways of taking an AoO, much like exiting multiple squares provokes multiple AoOs. Only one can be taken advantage of.
StruckingFuggle 09-08-07, 09:40 PM	As shown above, it's the same line. The same "movement" creating 2 separate ways of taking an AoO, much like exiting multiple squares provokes multiple AoOs. Only one can be taken advantage of. No, because it's multiple similar opportunities that you cannot take advantage of, not multiple different opportunities created by the same action.
EvilVegan 09-09-07, 08:06 AM	If dude 2 has a reach weapon and dude 1 just crosses over the threatened area, dude 2 can never ever ever get his AoO for hold the line in this example. The wording of HtL makes it so the AoO happens only immediatly before the attack. Since dude 1 has a square left to travel, the attack isn't coming yet. I can "charge" through 1000 people's threatened areas, each person having HtL, and I could not provoke a single HtL AoO because of that one limiting clause. Dude 2's threat radius in red. (Just cause I learned you can use colors in codeblocks) Dude 1 charges Dude 2: 1 - - - - - 2 > 1 - - - - 2 - > 1 - - - 2 - - > 1 - - 2 - - - > 1 - 2 -> Enters threatened square, No HtL - - - - > 1 2 -> Exits threatened square, provokes. Enters a threatend square before the attack, provokes. Same "opportunity" caused both provocations, crossing the line.Ah. So it is basically your argument that hold the line doesn't work at all with reach weapons? Fine. I'm not even going to try to argue against that one (the wording is too obscure). I didn't know you could use colors! That will help a lot. . . :D
war_thog 09-09-07, 10:09 AM	Tsuul just stated... "The feat would have to be a charge based AoO instead of a Movement based one. Change the normal line and the feat works that way." It is isnt it? Feat: "You make an AoO against a charging foe who enters an area you threaten" It is specific to chargers. A person moving doesnt do it. This feat is specific to the charge action. As part of charge you enter squares. A threatened square in this example. You get one AoO for a charger entering your threatened square. Then one AoO for anyone *this guy happens to be charging* leaving your threatened square. 2 noticably seperate causes of oppurtunity. One specific. HtL. One general. AoO for movement. And on the reach weapon debate. If we wish to nitpick..... Charge attack is a special attack taht requires a full round action. You move during a charge. You also attack during a charge. You dont take seperate actions of move and attack, its one full round action, so it all happens together. You attack during a charge. The HtL feat says "immediately before the charge attack is resolved" Not immediately before the CHARGE'S attack is resolved. We are missing an ' and a s. The charge attack as a full round action. Not necessarily the specific swining of weapon you make during the charge. Now then we have a huge debacle. How can you attack someone immediately before resolving any of their charge?? *unless you threaten them at the start of their turn* They have to move to you first. Something has been resolved. We have missed our immediately point. We cant Attack. Bugger. But wait they havent even provoked an AoO yet. So we cant attack immediately before. So they definetely mean after the AoO has been incurred, so not strictly immediately. So how about immediately before anything else gets resolved but after the AoO. Then we have they enter our threatened square, incur it, then we resolve it immediately before they resolve any further charge attack consequences. Or we can look at the way some people are choosing to as attacking during the cahrge being what is meant by "charge attack" and force it immediately before the attack roll. Which makes reach weapons useless. *for this feat* So if we really want to pick on the rules we can obviously pull them apart. However if we dont fine tooth comb it and take it more as it should be, we dont make it so the feat is useless with reach weapons. We dont question whehter they missed an apostrophe or not and the implications of this. We dont question the concept of by "charge attack" do they mean the action as a whole or the attack made during the action? These, while very interesting, do make one feel a bit silly for nitpicking so much. Instead we take the way of reading the rules that doesnt make ridiculous limits on weapon use *there is no reason a reach weapon would be any worse at this than a sword* and use the current common thought of 2 AoO's. You paid a feat (and its feat req) for it and your stat is at least decent. You deserve to make full use (not abuse) of it. Our 3 attacks as previously stated go.... 1. HtL. 2. Readied. 3. leaving. :)
Knightblde 09-09-07, 12:46 PM	LOL You guys are frustrating! This is not a D20 SRD, or D&D rule: As shown above, it's the same line. The same "movement" creating 2 separate ways of taking an AoO, much like exiting multiple squares provokes multiple AoOs. Only one can be taken advantage of. This is a common misconception. But it has been explained many times. This also is not a D20 SRD, or D&D rule: No, because it's multiple similar opportunities that you cannot take advantage of, not multiple different opportunities created by the same action. This also is not a D20 SRD, or D&D rule: The purpose is to make it so that for a single action (e.g. moving) no matter how many times you trigger an opportunity (e.g. moving out of a square an opponent threatens), you only provoke a single AoO. If I fire a ranged weapon 3 times while threatened, I provoke 3 AoO, no matter what! This proves the two above rules incorrect. Dude 1 charges Dude 2: 1 - - - - - 2 > 1 - - - - 2 - > 1 - - - 2 - - > 1 - - 2 - - - > 1 - 2 -> Reach + HtL + Plus entering threatened square = Provokes AoO - - - - > 1 2 -> Reach + Leaving threatened square = provokes AoO Ah. So it is basically your argument that hold the line doesn't work at all with reach weapons? If this is in fact the case then I don't have a clue how to explain it to you. Immediatly before the chage = DEFENDER HITS FIRST, nothing else. I can give some credence to the Change Base Rule Defense, as explained above, because it is such a common misconception, but the Immediatly Defense is just a matter of reading WAY to much into the rule.
war_thog 09-10-07, 01:25 AM	"The Immediatly Defense is just a matter of reading WAY to much into the rule." Just for emphasis.
KmartKommando 09-10-07, 03:14 AM	Hold the Line does not give you an AoO for moving into a threatened square. It gives you an AoO for Charging into a threatened square. I am in the 3 crowd, because if someone just moved up and didn't charge, you would get 1 AoO for them moving out of a threatened square, and your readied action may or may not go off, depending on how you worded it, but no double damage, because there was no charge. Change 'reach weapon' to 'large spear, carried by a large creature, readied against a charge'. How does that change the situation? It doesn't..still 3 attacks are going to happen.
Tsuul 09-10-07, 03:43 AM	It's late, serious flaws in logic are probably imminent. Ah. So it is basically your argument that hold the line doesn't work at all with reach weapons? It works*, but not in that 15'>10' movement. a) Using a loose interpretation of "immediately before the charge attack is resolved" You would need a 15' reach weapon to get the attack from HtL in this senario with dude 1 moving ">" 15' to 10' closer to dude 2: ----->1-2 The nature of AoOs has them take place before the provoking action. This also means you can not take AoOs from HtL with non reach weapons. But that's the whole point of HtL, this can't be true!! b) Using a tight interpretation of "immediately before the charge attack is resolved" HtL forces you to wait until you enter a threatened square from where the charge attack is to be made just before the attack, like so: ------>12 The AoO takes place before the provoking action, so again we make the AoO while dude 1 is in the > square. This also means you can not take AoOs from HtL with non reach weapons. But that's the whole point of HtL, this can't be true either!! c) Using a constricting-tight interpretation of "immediately before the attack" "immediately before the charge attack is resolved" is an exception to the normal timing of AoOs and as such explicitly places the AoO in the final square of the charger's movement. This allows non reach weapons to use HtL. But now does not allow donut hole reach weapons. ~~~~~~~~~~~ In all 3 scenarios, it is impossible to make an attack on the charger from the opportunity created by the 15' to 10' away movement. *-in 2/3 of the interpretations above
Knightblde 09-10-07, 07:33 AM	Tsuul, IMHO you are just reading way to far into each rule. You ar making the new rule, given to yo by the feat, worthless with the old rule. As such there is no point to get the feat. Just like Combat Reflexes changes the rule to give you more AoOs in a round, HtL gives you more was to provoke them. This will trump old rules. It is completly apparent that we disagree. Not much more we can get out of this so unless I see a powerful new point, I am done posting here. It was a good debate though.
Tsuul 09-10-07, 12:30 PM	Tsuul, IMHO you are just reading way to far into each rule. You ar making the new rule, given to yo by the feat, worthless with the old rule. As such there is no point to get the feat. Which is true. I just feel that the feat was poorly written.
EvilVegan 09-10-07, 12:44 PM	Agreed. I coup de grace this thread. :D I think both sides have presented their arguments well enough, there isn't any new argument to say, and as always it's up to the DM to decide. What if the tarrasque has hold the line, a spiked-chain, epic combat reflexes, robilar's gambit, stand still, karmic strike, and is wearing spiked armor?
StruckingFuggle 09-10-07, 03:14 PM	What if the tarrasque has hold the line, a spiked-chain, epic combat reflexes, robilar's gambit, stand still, karmic strike, and is wearing spiked armor? And it still can't fly? It's still pathetically weak for its level. :)
KmartKommando 09-11-07, 02:37 AM	And it still can't fly? It's still pathetically weak for its level. :) Paint it black and magic missile the darkness. :P
EvilVegan 09-12-07, 08:38 AM	It can't fly, but it has tractor beams.