Post/Author/DateTime	Post
somesap 11-26-07, 05:47 PM	Had a question come up. When a warblade has Imp Trip and they get there Extra/Free (what ever you want to call it) attack can that person then use that attack on a Maneuver against the tripped person. The only thing we saw that limited the free attack was that it had to be used against the person you tripped. Thanks
Hsien 11-26-07, 06:17 PM	Depends on who you ask :) Falls in to one of several frames of thought. I'm not that familar with ToB so I'm not sure what a manuever costs in way of action, so I'll cover a couple angles 1: No, Imprv trip says you get a free attack on them. It does not indicate that you can trigger a manuever or do anything else besides make an attack. 2: Yes, you can take any attack action or manuever in this case against that person...perinent part of Imprv Trip is the ~ as if you had not used the previous attack as a trip~ or at least something close to that. Then there are sub-arguments...does it have to be with the same weapon. 3: No, since it follows the ~as if you had not used~ wording you can drop your weapon and quickdraw another to attack them with. Spells...see below 4: Yes, it must be the same weapon. The trip was the set-up and the extra attack is the follow though, no longer a Touch Attack but app is prone so you get +4 to hit. My group uses this now, we used to follow #3 but changed after an inventive move, trip, and then spell cast on tripped person routine. It was too effective and bizarre, making the Impv Trip far to overpowering.
somesap 11-26-07, 06:30 PM	We were split about it. The whole as if you hadn't used your attack line got the Yes you can but it sure does seem pretty powerful. The DM has never played with ToB so he is not sure. I was hoping to find something in the FaQ But I see nothing even close to official
somesap 11-26-07, 06:38 PM	I just got off the phone with Cust service and the official rules is "Certinaly" you can use any standard action attack. Just FYI if anyone else is looking for it.
Crimson_Concerto 11-26-07, 07:17 PM	Your customer service call is wrong (yes, it happens every once in a while). The problem is that all maneuvers that include an attack are standard action or full-round action strikes, and if you've already taken an attack during the round to trip the enemy, you have neither of those left this round. Now, if you're, say, in the middle of a full-round maneuver that grants multiple attacks and allows you to trip (such as Flashing Sun? You know, the Desert Wind maneuver that gives you an extra attack, etc.), then sure, you can take that extra attack and still gain the benefits of your maneuver, but as for using a standard action strike after a trip, that's impossible. It all comes down to what your actions cost.
runestar 11-26-07, 08:37 PM	From the FAQ (oh, how I love saying that...:P ) If I use Mighty Throw (Tome of Battle, page 73) or another maneuver that allows me to trip a foe, does the Improved Trip feat grant me an extra attack against that opponent? Yes. The Improved Trip feat applies any time you trip a foe in melee combat, even if that trip comes from a special power.
somesap 11-26-07, 08:50 PM	Your customer service call is wrong (yes, it happens every once in a while). The problem is that all maneuvers that include an attack are standard action or full-round action strikes, and if you've already taken an attack during the round to trip the enemy, you have neither of those left this round. Now, if you're, say, in the middle of a full-round maneuver that grants multiple attacks and allows you to trip (such as Flashing Sun? You know, the Desert Wind maneuver that gives you an extra attack, etc.), then sure, you can take that extra attack and still gain the benefits of your maneuver, but as for using a standard action strike after a trip, that's impossible. It all comes down to what your actions cost. Man maybe I shouldn't have refreshed this thread.. Thanks for the correction.
Hsien 11-26-07, 08:52 PM	From the FAQ That's not the issue. The question was if after a successful trip, can the extra attack provided by Improved Trip include using a Manuever from ToB. Again I'm not that familiar with ToB so I'd assume it depends on the manuever, but seems likely.
Ander Spectacular 11-28-07, 09:44 AM	That's not the issue. The question was if after a successful trip, can the extra attack provided by Improved Trip include using a Manuever from ToB. Again I'm not that familiar with ToB so I'd assume it depends on the manuever, but seems likely. As has been said already, most likely no, you cannot use a maneuver after a trip attack. Most maneuvers require a separate action(standard, full round, also swift) that would prevent you from initiating a maneuver after you have already made an initial attack. Boosts and such, that are swift actions, would work fine, though. Virtually no strikes would work. -AS-
Salla 11-28-07, 05:33 PM	As has been said already, most likely no, you cannot use a maneuver after a trip attack. Most maneuvers require a separate action(standard, full round, also swift) that would prevent you from initiating a maneuver after you have already made an initial attack. Boosts and such, that are swift actions, would work fine, though. Virtually no strikes would work. -AS- Exactly right. Improved Trip lets you make 'an attack', not a standard action, after the trip. It's the same reason you can't combine maneuvers with Spring Attack, or Manyshot with Shot on the Run. The feats specifically say 'an attack', which means the generic 'roll a d20, deal weapon damage', no frills. :)
strenoth 11-28-07, 07:49 PM	I'm flexible enough that anything that you could replace an attack with as part of a full-attack action (such as a disarm or a sunder) I woudl allow after an Imprved trip, or anything that triggers an improved trip, but a manuever is its own standard action, never 'part of' another action such as a full attack.