Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Netjack 03-12-08, 07:12 PM	So I am now playing with a DM, that seems to enjoy realism a little too much. He will nerf skills and feats that he believe is impossible. For example, improved evasion. He believes evasion is possible, since it is conceivable to reduce the effectiveness of, say, a grenade, if you where able to move correctly. However, he thinks improved evasion is just dumb, because he doesn't see how you can take no damage from something like a grenade, of if you where in a 5 by 5 foot hallway, how you could dodge a fireball. However, the will and fortitude saves version of the abilities are being left alone, since you just have "that strong of a mind or body". Yet, he doesn't find anything strange that a person was able to cast a fireball out of their hand, or that there is a 200 foot dragon walking around..... Also, can someone explain to me evasions, I believe, without evasion, everone makes a reflex and can half damage it, with it they would take no damage, and with improved evasion, on a failed reflex they would still take half damage. How we have been playing, only people with evasion can make the reflex roll and take half damage, and with improved evasion, you would take no damage, and half damage on a failed roll. If it is how I thought it was all along, then he will probably ban evasion as well. While we are on the subject of abilities that apparently don't make any sense apparently heroic surge is banned as well, since it allows someone to do more in six seconds then they are allowed. Yet haste is still allowed because its magic. God help you if you actually want to mix the two. "three standard actions and one movement is deadly though". I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but it is still on the same subject, when playing a star wars saga campaign with this DM, he stated that the skill use-the-force can not be used to send messages to other people, even though it says in the description it can be used for short messages, because it doesn't make any sense. So apparently now the force has to make sense to certain. When referencing the movies them selfs when they where able to do this, he would state it was because that character would be at level 20, or just legendary so we cant use them as an example. Then there are free actions. He seems content to limit the number of free actions, since these two are impossible. I understand not being able to drop 50 weapons, but we are limited to two. Now the Manuel itself says the DM has the right to limit them but two is far to limiting.I think I can take a five foot step, say something, and quick draw something into my hand in 6 seconds. So long story short, any extraordinary abilities are being nerfed, as of right now, only the mentioned have been, but as time moves on, more will be. To anyone keeping track, this is actually a different DM then the one I have posted about before.
kalstrand 03-12-08, 10:12 PM	You may be using different rules but in 3.5 DnD you don't get extra actions from Haste. Haste simply increases your move speed by 30, gives a small bump to AC and maybe attack can't remember offhand, and an extra attack when using the Full-attack action. The last time I saw Heroic Surge (in the book Age of Mortals and repringted in other DL books) it simply allowe an extra Move Action or Attack Action. While an Attack Action is a Standard Action the feat only gives that specific Standard Action and not any of your choosing, so you can't cast a spell with Heroic Surge. As I said you maybe using different versions.
runestar 03-12-08, 10:30 PM	DnD is all about doing impossible things. If you take the time to consider what you could accomplish with a high enough skill check, suddenly, being able to dodge fireballs seems rather tame by comparison. I will see if I can locate the thread which details all the superhuman feats you can do with skills.:)
zerombr 03-12-08, 11:06 PM	I know the feeling, really there's little that anyone here can do to convince your GM what is feasible and what is not. Sadly all that you can do is like it or lump it. I've had several games where someone simply decides that an action is impossible, I do it myself. I suppose it's possible to explain to him rationally about balance and whatnot. You might talk about how your char has learned how to anticipate dragon's breath and grenades better, how his reaction time has increased just enough to learn to dodge things. Granted I understand his idea, I mean, how the heck can you dodge a dragon's breath if it affects all squares around you, without moving out of the area of affect? It's just one of those things in the game that gives thieves and their ilk an advantage. On the other side of the argument, why not insist on having everything played out totally realistic? Blood loss, realistic wait times for things to be built or travel to be done,(ask him constantly what the scenery is) ^^
Kouk 03-13-08, 12:03 AM	OK, well sometimes you need to vent. Don't really expect any help which will do anything though, your DM seems set.
runestar 03-13-08, 12:04 AM	I mean, how the heck can you dodge a dragon's breath if it affects all squares around you, without moving out of the area of affect? Evasion is not always about jumping out of the way. It could be as simple as waving your cloak around you as swiftly as possible to deflect the flames or something, finding something to take cover behind, or perhaps there was some "dead zone" in the fireball that did not burn as fiercely or something.:P
LSMFT 03-13-08, 12:26 AM	You might show him this: Evasion (Ex) Improved Evasion (Ex) Extraordinary Abilities (Ex) Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. And then, the next time he asks how one could possibly dodge a Fireball in a narrow hall, you can reply, "Well, I guess I could just break the laws of physics. MmmmKay?"
StevenO 03-13-08, 12:30 AM	Someone who thinks Evasion is fine and possible but Improved Evasion couldn't work really has things mixed up. I really like Improved Evasion but leaving out the "Evasion" effect all it means is you have REALLY good reflexes and always make your REF save for half damage. Characters with IE should already have a pretty high chance at saving so this is just a little added insurance. It is the "Evasion" part that should be considered "impossible" if anything; with evasion you take no damge from a maximized fireball that deals 60 to the slow cleric and even 30 the quick footed Ranger.
Kouk 03-13-08, 03:08 AM	Evasion is not always about jumping out of the way. It could be as simple as waving your cloak around you as swiftly as possible to deflect the flames or something, finding something to take cover behind, or perhaps there was some "dead zone" in the fireball that did not burn as fiercely or something.:P The cloak thing is nice, I'll steal that if someone needs a "How" explanation if you don't mind. Similarly I have also seen justifications along the lines of: "He guarded his vitals better/in time", "He ducked", "He was really lucky", "His deity favors him".
Ashen_Child 03-13-08, 03:23 AM	How about this for a house rule. If a rogue successfully avoids an AOE, he is permitted to take his move action for the next turn to leave the area of effect completely. If he has some remaining movement, he can hold this in reserve until the next aoe, or sacrafice his standard action. Nerfs rogues a little, but less than losing evasion all together. And better yet, it makes sense
Damned slayer 03-13-08, 04:40 PM	go check the treat on wheter or not you should always get a save and if he still think evasion is broken than find a new GM http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=999811 Because I don't see why a statue would get a reflex save if rogue can't fully avoid damages
larry_the_titan 03-13-08, 06:06 PM	and if he still think evasion is broken than find a new GM I suggest looking for a new DM, since looking for a GM makes you sound like you want a used car.
Netjack 03-13-08, 08:38 PM	So after telling him that everyone always gets a reflex save for half damage, and that evasion means you take no damage one a success. He finally notice he has been playing with some gimped rules from a previous DM. "The same one who thought it was impossible to use quickdraw multiple times per turn, like for throwing weapons........" Not allowing evasion would mean you gimp monk, rogues, and rangers. "CORE CLASSES" I don't know where I keep finding theses people who have it out for core rules. Evasion now negates all damage, but he still finds improved evasion impossible since you failed the save, there for you take it in the face....... Just for reference, can someone walk me through the reflex save "tree" as in what happens if someone fails the save. What happens if someone makes the save. What happens if someone with evasion fails, what happens if that person succeeds. What happens when someone fails with improved evasion, what happens when someone makes it with improved.
Cifer 03-14-08, 12:03 AM	I suggest looking for a new DM, since looking for a GM makes you sound like you want a used car. Looking for a dungeon master on the other hand makes it sound like you have some... interesting preferences. ;) Just for reference, can someone walk me through the reflex save "tree" as in what happens if someone fails the save. What happens if someone makes the save. What happens if someone with evasion fails, what happens if that person succeeds. What happens when someone fails with improved evasion, what happens when someone makes it with improved. Most effects with a reflex save have the entry "Save: Reflex half". This means that when you make your reflex save, you get half damage. If you don't make it, you get full damage. Evasion changes "half" into "no" while improved evasion changes the failed save into half damage. Evasion now negates all damage, but he still finds improved evasion impossible since you failed the save, there for you take it in the face....... Ask him about the barbarian's damage reduction. After all, the enemy hit, so the barbarian should also "take it in the face" instead of shaving off a few points of damage.
Netjack 03-14-08, 02:19 AM	He will say something like "A barbarian's body strong enough to resist it". or for someone's will save "I don't remember the will save version of evasion, i just know it is somewhere" He will say that the person's mind is just that strong, or that his body is that strong, for fortitude.
Cifer 03-15-08, 02:14 AM	So? Your reflexes are that strong too...
Baninor 03-16-08, 08:55 AM	Improved Evasion basically means your so evasive even when your not able to fully get out of the blast you still manage to avoid some of it. Also Tell your DM not to think it as failing and succeeding. If he thinks Rogues are overpowered because of it, point out your flaws. You most likely will fail most of the time on Fort and Will Saves. And besides Dragons Breath DCs are retardely high, even rogues have issues passing it. Improved Evasion can save you from being outright murdered while your higher hp party memebers can take a hit and still stand